Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 33 of 33

Thread: Did The Bobcats Offer To T.Thomas Raise Amir's Asking Price?

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Amir Johnson's value isn't determined by what Tyrus Thomas makes, it's determined by how much the highest bidder is willing to pay.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    5,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Hotshot wrote: View Post
    Amir will be signed a 3 year deal worth $15 million dollars that is the magic number.

    I hope he isn't looking or asking for more,
    So you still think that T. Thomas is worth about 20% more a year than Johnson even though Johnson has shown over his five years in the league that he is better than Thomas.

    People think Thomas is better because he has played a lot more minutes prior to last season and chucks up tons of shots. Don't forget Thomas also has a long history in his short career of being a bit of a trouble maker whereas to my knowledge the only problem that Johnson has ever created was when his Bentley broke down on the road on the way to the airport and he missed the team plane. He did however catch a commercial flight and arrive at the arena in time for the game.
    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

    Memories some so sweet, indeed

    Larger Photo of the avatar



    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote BomKeyzi wrote: View Post
    If Bosh walks Amir becomes much more valuable. A Bosh sign n trade would have to bring back a far better bigman than Amir to justify only offering a $800,000 raise to a promising young bigman that knows he's highly regarded and needed by the team. Such a low ball offer could seriously backfire on the Raptors. I agree not to overpay, but this could easily turn into a bidding war with another team.
    Yes and no. A bad GM would probably let need influence how much Amir deserves. A good GM would already know what he thinks of Amir, what his role will be and what the value of his talent is, and that's all that matters. So yes, if Bosh leaves and BC thinks Amir can play 35 a game, then BC obviously might be willing to pay more. But if Amir will play about the same minutes whether or not Bosh leaves (this is more likely the case if you consider Amir's foul rate), then it shouldn't matter.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    5,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Amir Johnson's value isn't determined by what Tyrus Thomas makes, it's determined by how much the highest bidder is willing to pay.
    What the highest bidder is willing to pay will be determined by among other things what T. Thomas was offered because Thomas and Johnson have similar games and similar numbers last season except in the advanced stats where Johnson was clearly superior.

    I think it is a bit naive to think that Duffy, Johnson's agent, and one of the best agents in the NBA, won't use every stat and other piece of information available to get a good deal for Johnson just like he does for his other two dozen plus NBA clients. If Duffy managed to get $3.7 million a year for Johnson for three years when Johnson was still playing in the D-League It is more than reasonable to assume that he will aim to get more than what Thomas is getting.

    I would not bet against Duffy. When you are ranked #4 in NBA clients total salaries you must be doing something right for your clients, like getting them the most money possible even it means that teams over pay for his clients.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:32 AM.
    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

    Memories some so sweet, indeed

    Larger Photo of the avatar



    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    So you still think that T. Thomas is worth about 20% more a year than Johnson even though Johnson has shown over his five years in the league that he is better than Thomas.

    People think Thomas is better because he has played a lot more minutes prior to last season and chucks up tons of shots. Don't forget Thomas also has a long history in his short career of being a bit of a trouble maker whereas to my knowledge the only problem that Johnson has ever created was when his Bentley broke down on the road on the way to the airport and he missed the team plane. He did however catch a commercial flight and arrive at the arena in time for the game.
    Stop trying to raise Amir's asking price PLEASE! LOL

    I think people WILL be willing to pay Tyrus Thomas more than Amir. Tyrus Thomas has the potential of having a more well-rounded game than Amir (IMO), and people pay for potential all the time (just look at Bargnani).

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    What the highest bidder is willing to pay will be determined by among other things what T. Thomas was offered because Thomas and Johnson have similar games and similar numbers last season except in the advanced stats where Johnson was clearly superior.
    Don't forget it's just a qualifying offer for one year. Charlotte might be willing to pay $6.2 mil for one year -- that's not that much to risk -- but who knows if they'd be willing to pay $21 mil over 3 years (assuming raises). They're just doing the smart thing to retain their right to match. There may not be much of a market for either of these players outside their respective teams (last FA ranking I checked, Amir was around #50, so people outside of Toronto might not have as high a view of him).

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    If Duffy managed to get $3.7 million a year for Johnson for three years when Johnson was still playing in the D-League It is more than reasonable to assume that he will aim to get more than what Thomas is getting.
    He has a few things working against him this time:

    1) Amir is far down the list of desired FAs. All eyes are on LBJ/Wade/Bosh this summer. Had Amir had performed the way he did last year and been a free agent a few years back, he may have gotten his 6-7 mil a year deal.

    2) All teams are looking towards the new CBA. If someone does offer 7 mil a year for AJ, he would have to be the laughingstock of GMs. The top FAs will get theirs, the next tier (Joe Johnson, Boozer, Amare) might be overpaid by a team that struck out (e.g. New York), but I really don't think teams will go crazy over role players like Amir. And if they do, then good for them!

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    5,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Stop trying to raise Amir's asking price PLEASE! LOL

    I think people WILL be willing to pay Tyrus Thomas more than Amir. Tyrus Thomas has the potential of having a more well-rounded game than Amir (IMO), and people pay for potential all the time (just look at Bargnani).
    That is only your opinion. I don't agree with that at all.

    Thomas can't shoot and will never be able to shoot period.

    He does four things that get him ESPN coverage.

    1. He can dunk very well
    2. He chucks up tons of shots
    3. He causes problems with management
    4. He blocks shots

    Johnson

    1. Also dunks very well
    2. Has a far superior inside game
    3. Rolls to basket and finishes better
    4. Sets far better screens on offense
    5. Does not cause problems with management
    6. Plays better team defense.

    What Johnson has not been able to do is keep his foul problem under control.

    How much he will lose financially by that remains to be seen. If Duffy can convince at least one GM that Johnson is solving that problem, which he did show improvement last season, the I think Johnson will get over $6 million a year.

    In his five starts last season he did average over 32mpg so he did show for at least those five starts that he can stay on the court when he is asked to start.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:43 AM.
    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

    Memories some so sweet, indeed

    Larger Photo of the avatar



    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    5,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Don't forget it's just a qualifying offer for one year. Charlotte might be willing to pay $6.2 mil for one year -- that's not that much to risk -- but who knows if they'd be willing to pay $21 mil over 3 years (assuming raises). They're just doing the smart thing to retain their right to match. There may not be much of a market for either of these players outside their respective teams (last FA ranking I checked, Amir was around #50, so people outside of Toronto might not have as high a view of him).
    You may have a point about Thomas offer being only for one year. However, it will be interesting to see if any teams match or exceed that offer.

    As far as that ranking goes, it is total BS and my guess, you didn't provide a link, is not based on any numbers but just one person's opinion. Anyone can create a subjective list. That won't mean squat when it comes to contract negotiations.

    If you go to basketballvalue.com
    --------------------------------------------
    1. Johnson was ranked in the top 30 of all players In the NBA last season in "1 year unadjusted rating".
    2. He was also #16 among all players in the NBA in two year +/-.
    3. He also ranked #1 in the NBA in "1 year unadjusted defensive rating" (Comment: In 2009-10 Bargnani ranked second to last in the league in this stat)

    So please don't throw around some subjective ratings number especially when you have no link to back it up.


    http://basketballvalue.com/topplayer...sortorder=DESC
    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

    Memories some so sweet, indeed

    Larger Photo of the avatar



    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    That is only your opinion. I don't agree with that at all.

    [... comparison ...]
    Of course it's just my opinion. Most things stated on this forum are simply that, opinions.

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    What Johnson has not been able to do is keep his foul problem under control.
    [...]
    In his five starts last season he did average over 32mpg so he did show for at least those five starts that he can stay on the court when he is asked to start.
    This is such an important part of the equation. 5 games is simply that. Tyrus has shown he can stay on the floor for longer over complete seasons. Each of the last 3 years, Tyrus has played considerably more minutes per game. Here's some interesting stats on the defensive end:

    (stats are per 40 minutes and adjusted for pace; draftexpress.com)
    ------------------dreb treb stls blks PFs
    Thomas-Bulls: 8.2 10.6 2.3 2.8 3.7
    Thomas-Cats: 8.5 11.4 1.7 2.8 4.9
    Johnson-Raps: 6.5 10.7 1.2 1.8 6.9

    These numbers show Thomas to not only be a better shot-blocker and better defensive rebounder, but a pretty good ball-hawk as well. And he has done this while fouling less and staying on the floor longer.

    Johnson is a better offensive rebounder, but did you know that of all players averaging at least 14 minutes a game (20 game minimum), Amir had the highest fouls/min rate? He improved a little last year, but not by much. If he were to play starter minutes, either he suddenly no longer commits any unnecessary fouls or he has to play with less defensive intensity. You simply can't take his performance last year, extend it over almost twice the minutes and expect him to perform the same way the entire game the entire season, especially not with those fouls (or POB would be a 15.5 and 9 player, with 3.3 blocks and 1.6 steals every 40 minutes).

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    As far as that ranking goes, it is total BS and my guess, you didn't provide a link, is not based on any numbers but just one person's opinion. Anyone can create a subjective list. That won't mean squat when it comes to contract negotiations.
    Yes, I agree it was subjective. It would be ridiculous for me to say hey, according to God's list of all NBA 2010 free agents, Amir is ~#50. All ESPN/Yahoo/NBA.com rankings are subjective. It should be obvious, lol. (and no, I don't have the link because I read it a long time ago, and what his actual ranking was is beside the point, but you are free to google it and no it was not Bleacher Report =P)

    But there's also an extent to that subjectiveness. For instance, LBJ, Wade and Bosh are at the very top of the list, and so are JJ, Boozer, etc. It's subjective that these guys are better than Amir, but it's probably also true. Just as true is that people outside of TO will have a different view of him, and that is what I said. A lot of teams have someone like Amir that fans love, but I bet neither you nor I can name them.

    That link you provided with his adjusted stats and what not, well, frankly means very little for the reason I already gave. The veracity of stats always depends on volume and context and in this case Amir cannot be compared to a player who simply plays more minutes in real life and not some statistical extrapolation, and you also have to take into account who he was playing against.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 01:25 AM.

  12. #32
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    What the highest bidder is willing to pay will be determined by among other things what T. Thomas was offered because Thomas and Johnson have similar games and similar numbers last season except in the advanced stats where Johnson was clearly superior.
    What the highest bidder is willing to pay is determined by what the second highest bidder is willing to pay. Sure they play the game in a similar way but Thomas comes with more prestige, had a great second half after being traded and besides, the market is flooded with a lot of good players this off-season. We're not talking the NFL where a player is trying to work an extension based on what someone with comparable skills makes and is willing to hold out if he doesn't get it. Teams aren't going to look at what Thomas got and then make an offer based on that. They're going to look at how much they have budgeted for the off-season and make an offer based on that. If someone beats that offer then they need to decide if they want to make a second bid. What I'm saying is that Tyrus Thomas would be a guideline to owners trying to get Amir Johnson. I think you overrate Johnson.

  13. #33
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    One more thing to consider. A lot of the teams with big time cap space are going to be not making smaller plays until the top free agents are out of play. Amir has a tough call on waiting for that to play out as opposed to accepting the offer that I'm sure Colangelo is probably going to drop at the stroke of midnight, July 1st. If Amir keeps a team waiting he might work himself out of play with that team. Players have been burned in the past by waiting too long.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •