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Thread: Chris Bosh In No Win Situation

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    Default Chris Bosh In No Win Situation

    Believe it or not, I'm not a massive fan of Bosh. I do like him and I defend him all the time, but if I were to get my choice of big men, Bosh would be fairly low on the list. Of course, even lower on the list would be guys like Stoudamire, Boozer, Lee, Jefferson, Bargnani and every other big who doesn't focus on defense.

    But I digress....

    Bosh takes a lot of flack among Raptor fans, and most of it is unwarranted. RIght now, however, he's in a no win situation. Raptor fans seem to be looking for any excuse to blast him.

    If Bosh re-signs, fans will either say he was too egotistical and didn't want to be in anyone's shadow, or just cared about the money.

    If Bosh signs with a team with Wade, LeBron or Kobe, they'll say he's just riding their coattails and is too afraid to prove he should be the main guy.

    If Bosh signs with New York, without LeBron or Wade, people will just say he's an attention whore who wants to go to where he'll get the most coverage.

    If Bosh goes to a winning team, or a team with lots of talent, he's to afraid to try and win by himself.

    If he goes to a team that isn't winning (or re-signs), he only cares about the money.

    What situation could Bosh go to where you wouldn't criticize him? And keep in mind, I'll bet there are plenty of contradictions, which will prove my point.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    All this stuff on twitter and in blogs is just noise. My three problems with Bosh have been and will continue to be

    1. I don't see him as a leader in the locker room
    2. His defense is below average
    3. He has never played 82 games in a season in his entire career and the long term outlook over the next several years for his knees is questionable.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I disagree with the thread. Bosh is a big winner if he leaves Toronto and picks the right location. The hateful posters around here are just upset that he's leaving. It's understandable but if you've been a fan since day one like me you can think back to much worse times than this. Bosh isn't screwing over the franchise. He's given management seven years to bring guys into to help him. It's management's fault. There is nothing wrong with Bosh leaving this way. He's doing it the right way. The professional way. The mature way.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I disagree with the thread. Bosh is a big winner if he leaves Toronto and picks the right location. The hateful posters around here are just upset that he's leaving. It's understandable but if you've been a fan since day one like me you can think back to much worse times than this. Bosh isn't screwing over the franchise. He's given management seven years to bring guys into to help him. It's management's fault. There is nothing wrong with Bosh leaving this way. He's doing it the right way. The professional way. The mature way.
    Finally, a voice of reason.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I disagree with the thread. Bosh is a big winner if he leaves Toronto and picks the right location. The hateful posters around here are just upset that he's leaving. It's understandable but if you've been a fan since day one like me you can think back to much worse times than this. Bosh isn't screwing over the franchise. He's given management seven years to bring guys into to help him. It's management's fault. There is nothing wrong with Bosh leaving this way. He's doing it the right way. The professional way. The mature way.
    The question is simple:

    If Bosh stays will the Raptors be better than if he leaves? Clearly that question is impossible to answer.

    However I do think that despite his ability to put up good numbers and but not lead the team to wins that the Raptors can replace him with a more team orientated and physically healthier player that will help to lead the Raptors into the playoffs on a regular basis.

    Of course this is all conjecture but since the question was asked I answered.

    I expect the Raptors to make the playoffs in 2010-11 with or without Bosh.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Chris Bosh plays 89% of all regular season games.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I disagree with the thread. Bosh is a big winner if he leaves Toronto and picks the right location. The hateful posters around here are just upset that he's leaving. It's understandable but if you've been a fan since day one like me you can think back to much worse times than this. Bosh isn't screwing over the franchise. He's given management seven years to bring guys into to help him. It's management's fault. There is nothing wrong with Bosh leaving this way. He's doing it the right way. The professional way. The mature way.
    How do you disagree with the thread? My point is that no matter what Bosh chooses to do, he will get blasted. I'm not saying I agree, in fact I agree with you, but the fact is that Bosh will get criticized no matter what he does.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star saints91's Avatar
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    and we didn't make playoffs by one game. It is managements fault thouugh, we have had a glaring need at the small forward or shooting guard positions since Carter left. They are instrumental positions in winning a championship. a good power forward and a creative offensive back court is a winning formula. THey should have got it done!

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    I think raptor fans have convenient memories. When a guy wants to leave we blast him and if he resigns he's a hero. Everyone in Toronto has already ganged up on Bosh and he is being crucified by casual fans and forum fans, but if he were to resign all would be forgiven fairly quickly.

    Kobe demanded a trade and acted 100 times worse than Bosh has and once they started winning nobody ever mentioned it again and they swept the whole episode under his already crowded rug.

    If he goes and plays with Lebron in Chicago I think people will respect the formation of the super team, but if the break up gets ugly the level of hatred could escalate from defcon Tmac to defcon Wince.

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    How is this different than LeBron James situation if we are to consider based on your assumptions?
    CB4,LBJ&Co are not going to care what their current team fans believe, pretty soon they will be adopted by their new team fans, maybe not as whiny as the current fans. I think there is a WIN situation for most of these stars, they will cash millions of dollars over next 5-6 years, regardless of what they choose to sign. What is +/- $30 millions when your contract is over $100 millions, more than enough to live your dream along with your extended family.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Seeten's Avatar
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    Bosh, from all I can figure, has given Colangelo as much to work with, about his intentions as can be expected. Colangelo chose not to trade him when his stock was highest(this past trade deadline) and now, I'm expecting him to sign in Chicago without even a sign and trade.

    Good for him. I wish him all the best. It isn't Bosh's fault we've surrounded him with a cast of characters akin to a soap opera, none of whom plays defense, none of whom shores up his weaknesses, quite the opposite, and then we play the blame the guy racking up 24/11 game.

    Go read the ESPN articles and see where Bosh's clutch scoring and PER rank. He's been a beast, and expecting him to do it alone is ridiculous. I hope to see him sign somewhere with a decent team, and I'll cheer for him there.

    I'll cheer for the Raptors, too, but with the knowledge that they are likely to be mediocre forever. C'est la vie.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    How is this different than LeBron James situation if we are to consider based on your assumptions?
    CB4,LBJ&Co are not going to care what their current team fans believe, pretty soon they will be adopted by their new team fans, maybe not as whiny as the current fans. I think there is a WIN situation for most of these stars, they will cash millions of dollars over next 5-6 years, regardless of what they choose to sign. What is +/- $30 millions when your contract is over $100 millions, more than enough to live your dream along with your extended family.
    I don't mean that Bosh can't go to a situation that would be great for him, but in the minds of Raptor fans, there's nothing he can do where he wouldn't be criticized. Personally, I think Chicago is the best situation for him, especially if they can get Joe Johnson. A starting lineup of Rose, Johnson, Deng, Bosh and Noah would be very, very good, and Bosh could feel that he's still the main guy, but doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting, with Johnson and Rose on the roster.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How do you disagree with the thread? My point is that no matter what Bosh chooses to do, he will get blasted. I'm not saying I agree, in fact I agree with you, but the fact is that Bosh will get criticized no matter what he does.
    If he leaves he won't care if he gets blasted here in Toronto. It won't matter anymore. Getting potentially booed over four games a season? Big deal.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't mean that Bosh can't go to a situation that would be great for him, but in the minds of Raptor fans, there's nothing he can do where he wouldn't be criticized. Personally, I think Chicago is the best situation for him, especially if they can get Joe Johnson. A starting lineup of Rose, Johnson, Deng, Bosh and Noah would be very, very good, and Bosh could feel that he's still the main guy, but doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting, with Johnson and Rose on the roster.
    Ohhh ... you are talking about Raptors fans. Well, with Raptors fans, is never OK regardless who we are talking about, unless Raptors wins few championships in row. CB4 case is not an exception from the rule.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie JustBrown's Avatar
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    At this point even if Bosh did want to re-sign, while glamorous on paper, it would be an awkward reception from the fans in my opinion. Your franchise player spends a summer basking in the media's spotlight (albeit in the shadow of LeBron), forming a hypothetical list of teams he is willing to play for, asking to be THE man, admitting that he is waiting on LeBron to make a decision and thus basing his ultimate decision off of that, claiming Miami is at the top of the aforementioned list, and all the while Toronto has rarely ever popped up. I have loved Bosh since we drafted him, but I don't know how well it would sit with me to have had the franchise player basically parade himself around the league while guys like Amir Johnson, DeRozan and Weems actually put in work this summer, and then have Bosh return as if things are all good. If Toronto was truly where he wanted to be, he wouldn't need to listen to offers or see who could woo him with the best overall package - he would have either a) signed an extension or b) kept his mouth shut like LeBron. Too much has been said on his part already this summer that shows where his mind and his heart are at this point and if both aren't 100% in Toronto, then (as much as it pains me to say it) would we really want him on the roster next year?

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    It's only awkward because Raptors fans are being over-sensitive though. Part of it you can blame on the nature of today's media. Everything is fast, fast, fast, rather than accurate (eg. Twitter), but then it's what you guys want apparently.

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    Your franchise player spends a summer basking in the media's spotlight (albeit in the shadow of LeBron)
    Considering he's probably the #3 free agent this summer, is it that abnormal to have the media attention he's getting? You yourself just admitted Lebron has been in the media even more, so how about Wade? Seems to me we're just noticing Bosh more because we've been looking for anything we can get our hands on to find out what's going on in his mind.

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    forming a hypothetical list of teams he is willing to play for
    It's a crime to do this? Do we even know what happened behind that supposed list of five? And if we take that list as something Bosh let slip but then wanted retracted (rather than one of the many, many rumors of the offseason), why are we so butt-hurt when we were on that list as well? If you believe the list is real but don't believe in our inclusion, then you're just bringing it on yourself.

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    asking to be THE man
    Yes, yes, asking to be THE man shows an egotistical attention-grubbing whore; if he plays with LBJ or Wade he's a little bitch; if he gets a $126 mil deal he's a greedy little bastard; and showing up at the Lakers game means he's unwilling to earn anything on his own. I totally hear you here.

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    admitting that he is waiting on LeBron to make a decision and thus basing his ultimate decision off of that
    ... means what... that he just described what EVERY single FA (except maybe Wade if he's intent on staying in Miami) is thinking right now? You guys read way too much into things. No, not too much, just whatever you guys want to hear.

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    claiming Miami is at the top of the aforementioned list
    No, not aforementioned. Again, this is your little mind-game with yourself. Nowhere did he say "of the list of five teams that was leaked out earlier, Miami is at the top." He only said Miami is in top contention for his services. Meaning what? Is Chicago in top contention? Is New York? Is Toronto? He goes on to say, "Everybody pretty much is on an even playing field until I hear what they have to say. I want to see things for myself, how they run everything, what their ideas are," but I guess it's more convenient to skip that part and just add your own meaning to three vague, unspecific words, and then beat yourself over it. Gosh, Raptors fans are masochistic.

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    basically parade himself around the league while guys like Amir Johnson, DeRozan and Weems actually put in work this summer
    This is what I love. When it's in support of what you think, you're free to add whatever meaning or extra bits that you want. But here, you have to be perfectly literal. No, no, we've only heard about Amir, DeMar and Sonny practicing at the Raptors facilities. Nobody else is practicing anywhere else. Obviously. (Not to mention, Amir, DeMar and Sonny have been doing their own share of "parading", and I have nothing against them for that. Even muscles need a break.)

    Quote JustBrown wrote: View Post
    If Toronto was truly where he wanted to be, he wouldn't need to listen to offers or see who could woo him with the best overall package - he would have either a) signed an extension or b) kept his mouth shut like LeBron.
    So Wade... guess Miami isn't where he truly wants to be since he hasn't signed an extension. Why was he seen with Bosh? Oh no, I guess Wade is going to Toronto. He was seen hanging out with Bosh. His girlfriend Gabrielle Union was there too. Wade must have brought her because any move Wade makes will concern her too. I guess BC must be talking to Wade through Bosh. Oh no, QQ, that rat bastard. And Lebron, can you imagine if he was a Raptor? OMG he stayed for ONLY 10 minutes and he didn't even say anything other than the PC thing to say. He must hate his home if he hasn't signed an extension. That loser.

    If anyone even remembers what really happened with McGrady, you'd be less likely to crucify Bosh. We gave McGrady his first chance and he leaves the first moment he can, giving us a S&T for nothing. Even better, he tells us he'll consider Toronto during the season, and we come out in full force every game, signs everywhere asking McGrady to stay. What happens July 1st? Grunwald tries to reach McGrady, McGrady doesn't respond back. We even had a decent, promising team back then, way better than what we have now. That was the ultimate insult, to say one thing and do another. Supposedly he didn't want to be under Vince's shadow; he wanted to be the man. But then he goes to Orlando to play with Grant Hill and Tim Duncan (except Duncan changed his mind). We should thank Bosh for being so honest, or we'd have nothing to beat ourselves with except the things we make up in our heads.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Mon Jun 28th, 2010 at 01:07 AM.

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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    It's only awkward because Raptors fans are being over-sensitive though. Part of it you can blame on the nature of today's media. Everything is fast, fast, fast, rather than accurate (eg. Twitter), but then it's what you guys want apparently.

    Considering he's probably the #3 free agent this summer, is it that abnormal to have the media attention he's getting? You yourself just admitted Lebron has been in the media even more, so how about Wade? Seems to me we're just noticing Bosh more because we've been looking for anything we can get our hands on to find out what's going on in his mind.

    Yes, yes, asking to be THE man shows an egotistical attention-grubbing whore; if he plays with LBJ or Wade he's a little bitch; if he gets a $126 mil deal he's a greedy little bastard; and showing up at the Lakers game means he's unwilling to earn anything on his own. I totally hear you here.
    It's definitely normal to have the media attention because I agree he's up there in the top 3 free agents this summer but personally I think he could be handling the situation better. If you mention LeBron or DWade it's clear that LeBron has taken a "no comment" approach to how he is dealing with free agency and DWade has showed his loyalty by claiming he wants to stay in Miami - neither are really in the same boat as Bosh in that respect.

    Considering you took every point i made and turned it into some extravagant pessimistic rant on how Bosh has turned his back on the franchise, I see where your stance is on how he's dealing with this summer, but I think you skewed what I meant for the most part. I absolutely know that if the list rumor is true, then Toronto was one of the teams on it but through what he has been QUOTED as saying and through his interviews, I get the sense that other teams may be higher on that list. I would love for him to re-sign, believe it or not, but I guess it will take more than a signature on a dotted line for me to believe that his heart is really in Toronto.

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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    and we didn't make playoffs by one game. It is managements fault thouugh, we have had a glaring need at the small forward or shooting guard positions since Carter left. They are instrumental positions in winning a championship. a good power forward and a creative offensive back court is a winning formula. THey should have got it done!
    We didn't make the playoffs because of defense and defense alone. Offense had absolutely nothing to do with it. Calderon and Bargnani were therefore the two biggest offenders in this respect, though Triano should be blasted for giving them increased roles over more well rounded players like Amir and Banks.

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    I'm a fan of CB4 in that I think most Raptors under-appreciate the effect he has on the court offensively and defensively.

    However, I don't get this "He gave us 7 years". He didn't give us 7 years because he didn't start playing like a real max-money player until these past two seasons (in fact, one could argue just this past season with the added bulk). Before that, he was a solid offensive power forward that took too many jump shots. That's not to say he wasn't good, he just wasn't someone you'd build around. Now that he's bulked up and started playing more inside, showing some leadership abilities too, NOW it's time to build around him.

    If anything the Raptors invested to get him into his prime, and now he's (maybe) bolting when he's at the peak of his career. This is the time to build around Bosh! The first 2 years of his career certainly don't count because we didn't know how far he'd come. And the next 3 years of his career don't count because he wasn't nearly as dominating. He's given us 2 years to build around him and in those two years we've had 2 failed experiments (3 if you want to count Marion leaving for Dallas).

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    This has become a ridiculous thread. To answer the original question posted, there is one situation where Bosh will be be free of Raptor fan hate: if he signs with another team that is at the same level as the Raptors, their GM makes a move or two and they win a title. That should successfully divert any hate we would have toward Bosh toward our GM, since if a place like, say, Millwakee (just an example, he's not going there) wins a title with Bosh as the guy.
    People need to stop trying to analyze this whole Bosh thing and just wait until he decides what he wants to do. It's pointless to consider where he might end up at this point when for all we know the Russian league could be waiting to sign Bosh to 30 million a year deal, or maybe China plans to start it's own league and wants CB4. Just chill.
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