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Thread: Raps 2010-2011 Starting C and PF

  1. #21
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    ummm...how does that ruin the thread.....
    Because you said Bargnani will be a better rebounder than insert any big man.

  2. #22
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    ruined is a harsh word though

    so what if bargs' reb numbers are better than cb's this year? can we come back to this thread and swith the word ruined with 'enhanced'?

    davis will be an all star soon enuff, so all the cb fanboys wont need to sh** the bed anymore. dude has skillz.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie Jive's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Ummm..hello..it makes a big difference in terms of positioning for rebounding, which is what we were talking about.
    rude

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    ruined is a harsh word though

    so what if bargs' reb numbers are better than cb's this year? can we come back to this thread and swith the word ruined with 'enhanced'?

    davis will be an all star soon enuff, so all the cb fanboys wont need to sh** the bed anymore. dude has skillz.
    Was bargnani's dick in your mouth as you typed this?

  5. #25
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    The point of what I was saying is that Amir and Davis will probably REB better than him.

    Davis and Johnson will both be better rebounders than CB4, so will Bargs.
    I'm curious how you can even type this s**t. Bosh was the 6th leading rebounder in the entire league. The only better rebounder on the team, per minute, was Reggie Evans. Bargnani was 7th. On the team. In order to average double digit rebounding, Bargnani would have to play 56.5 mpg.

    And since offensive rebounding is generally only a small percentage of a player's rebounding total, where he plays on offense doesn't matter. Loads of perimeter big men don't have trouble grabbing boards. Only Bargnani.

  6. #26
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Was bargnani's dick in your mouth as you typed this?
    Priceless!

  7. #27
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Was bargnani's dick in your mouth as you typed this?
    God bless you, Brasky.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Hopefully Bargs and Amir!
    "Hello, Hello !.....You Play to Win the GAME!!"

    Herm Edwards

  9. #29
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    If Chris Bosh does not resign, I believe there are several alternatives that may be available to the Raptors. I think Bargnani should be the starting PF with the Raptors exploring deals to acquire a Haywood, Milicic or Okefor,
    all big men who will compliment Bargnani's style of play.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Bargs is best when guarding the opposing team's larger power based interior player who tries to isolate and back him down. Conversely, many PFs are just too quick and athletic for him to handle. I think that has been the consensus for quite some time.

    Amir, on the other hand, is best when guarding quick PFs.

    Bargs is going to suck at rebounding regardless of whether he's at PF or C. His lack of defensive awareness and understanding of team & weakside defense, while perhaps a bigger issue at C, will still remain a problem at PF. He's also going to struggle with transition defense no matter what 'position' he's playing.

    On offense, you want to force the other team's C into a matchup with Bargnani, since he is usually no match for Bargnani's shooting range and first step.
    I only remember one instance of Bargs getting completely burned by his man last season and that was against Lemarcus Aldrige. He had very good games against big guys like Duncan and Howard, and I also remember him doing a fairly good job on Nowinski and Pau Gasol, who are both more finesse guys. Bargs has fairly quick feet and I see no reason or evidence to indicate he could not guard fours in the NBA. The issue is more that we need someone who can take on the opposing teams five, and we didn't have any this past season and won't next season.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is absolutely no difference between the 4 and the 4 and 5 on the offensive end and what people need to start saying is not, "move Bargs to the four" and instead say, 'move Bargs into the high post". I'm pretty sure that is what most people mean when they talk about Bargs as a power forward.
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  11. #31
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    today is a historic day, as for once brasky, tim w, and myself all agree on one thing. bargs is thee best defensive player on the raptors.

    now excuse me while i give this here tea bag to brasky, extra large, 'bag in'

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    The point of what I was saying is that Amir and Davis will probably REB better than him.

    Davis and Johnson will both be better rebounders than CB4, so will Bargs.
    that's crazy, bro.

    bosh is going to be going to a team that is in all likelyhood going to blow their wad on free agents, and he wont have much decent backup and therefore get a crapload of minutes..

    bargs is going to have to share his minutes with the young bigs

  13. #33
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    exactly dude..so cb's reb numbers this yr will be worse than any of the rap bigs

  14. #34
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I only remember one instance of Bargs getting completely burned by his man last season and that was against Lemarcus Aldrige. He had very good games against big guys like Duncan and Howard, and I also remember him doing a fairly good job on Nowinski and Pau Gasol, who are both more finesse guys. Bargs has fairly quick feet and I see no reason or evidence to indicate he could not guard fours in the NBA. The issue is more that we need someone who can take on the opposing teams five, and we didn't have any this past season and won't next season.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is absolutely no difference between the 4 and the 4 and 5 on the offensive end and what people need to start saying is not, "move Bargs to the four" and instead say, 'move Bargs into the high post". I'm pretty sure that is what most people mean when they talk about Bargs as a power forward.
    Bargnani had trouble against the more mobile big men. Apart from Aldridge, he had trouble with Chris Kaman so much so that Bosh had to be switched on him. He had trouble against Channing Frye/Amare Stoudemire, Al Horford, Andrew Bogut, big men who aren't really low post bangers, but face up more. Bargnani has more trouble when he has to get down in a stance against offensive players, rather than when he can body them up.

  15. #35
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    You are right about Frye, I forgot him, but let's look at points scored for the others. Stoudemire scored 18 (below his average) and 30 points against us, which is bad but not bad to the point were I'd say it was a mismatch. Kaman played well against us and scored 22 and 25 points, but we were hardly team only team he went off on. Horford scored: 12, 18, 10, and 24. So he ad one really good game against us (the one where we were crushed and it led to a meeting), but he was held below his season average for 2 of the other three. Bogut did burn us twice with 22 and 27 points, but he only scored 12 one of the times we played them.
    In conclusion you're right Tim, he does have some trouble with some of the Mobile guys, but I wouldn't say he is a whole lot worse than any of the guys around the league that defend the four around the league. My thought is, if we can have him guard fours and can get another big guy to guard fives, you can more easily hide his helping deficiencies since he would not be the last line of defense anymore which would greatly help this teams defense as a whole.
    Last edited by hateslosing; Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 09:04 AM. Reason: spelling
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  16. #36
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    You are right about Frye, I forgot him, but let's look at points scored for the others. Stoudemire scored 18 (below his average) and 30 points against us, which is bad but not bad to the point were I'd say it was a mismatch. Kaman played well against us and scored 22 and 25 points, but we were hardly team only team he went off on. Horford scored: 12, 18, 10, and 24. So he ad one really good game against us (the one where we were crushed and it led to a meeting), but he was held below his season average for 2 of the other three. Bogut did burn us twice with 22 and 27 points, but he only scored 12 one of the times we played them.
    In conclusion you're right Tim, he does have some trouble with some of the Mobile guys, but I wouldn't say he is a whole lot worse than any of the guys around the league that defend the four around the league. My thought is, if we can have him guard fours and can get another big guy to guard fives, you can more easily hide his helping deficiencies since he would not be the last line of defense anymore which would greatly help this teams defense as a whole.
    Yes, Bargnani does have trouble against more mobile players, as I've been saying for, well, ever. Playing him at PF doesn't hide his deficiencies, though. Again, you're getting too caught up in fairly arbitrary positions. The Raptors don't play a 2-3 zone. The center does not simply stand below the basket waiting for players to drive towards it. Both big men are equally important at protecting the paint, and any time you have a poor help defender down there, he is going to hurt your team. Teams are going to focus on where Bargnani is knowing he is a poor help defender, no matter what position he plays.

    Poor perimeter defenders you can hide to a degree, by having very good defenders behind him, but there's no one behind your big men except the basket.

  17. #37
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Yes, Bargnani does have trouble against more mobile players, as I've been saying for, well, ever. Playing him at PF doesn't hide his deficiencies, though. Again, you're getting too caught up in fairly arbitrary positions. The Raptors don't play a 2-3 zone. The center does not simply stand below the basket waiting for players to drive towards it. Both big men are equally important at protecting the paint, and any time you have a poor help defender down there, he is going to hurt your team. Teams are going to focus on where Bargnani is knowing he is a poor help defender, no matter what position he plays.

    Poor perimeter defenders you can hide to a degree, by having very good defenders behind him, but there's no one behind your big men except the basket.
    That is not necessarily true. A lot of teams have power forwards and centers who play away from the basket, ala Bargs. If you look at the raps this year, Bosh was in far fewer help situations than Bargs over the course of the season because he played farther away from the basket normally. How many teams have two guys who play consistently in the Post anymore? I can think of the Lakers off the top of my head but it's a short list after that. Think of the Magic, Do Rashard Lewis and Dwight help equally? I know that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm taking about here. There are of course times when Bargs woud get exposed, but the point here is to minimize that exposure which would be easier to do if Bargs guarded the smaller of the opposing bigs.
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  18. #38
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    That is not necessarily true. A lot of teams have power forwards and centers who play away from the basket, ala Bargs. If you look at the raps this year, Bosh was in far fewer help situations than Bargs over the course of the season because he played farther away from the basket normally. How many teams have two guys who play consistently in the Post anymore? I can think of the Lakers off the top of my head but it's a short list after that. Think of the Magic, Do Rashard Lewis and Dwight help equally? I know that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm taking about here. There are of course times when Bargs woud get exposed, but the point here is to minimize that exposure which would be easier to do if Bargs guarded the smaller of the opposing bigs.
    Yes, there are more big men that play away from the basket, but the situation with Bargnani is a catch 22. If he guards the more perimeter oriented big men, you're taking him away from what he does best, which is post defense. You make him guard the post players, the teams at a disadvantage because of his lack of help defense. Either way, you're at a disadvantage with Bargnani on the floor.

    All of those that point to Bargnani being a good post defender (he is, but not consistently, at all), want to move him out of the paint on defense. At least defending in the post, he does have SOME strengths. On the perimeter, he's got NONE!

    This is the big problem with Bargnani. His help defense is so poor, you don't want him guarding the paint, but the only thing he does well on defense is guard the post.

    This is why the Raptors have to deal him this summer. He will ALWAYS hurt your team on the defensive end. Always.

  19. #39
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    This is the big problem with Bargnani. His help defense is so poor, you don't want him guarding the paint, but the only thing he does well on defense is guard the post.
    Can't argue with that but I don't think you really gave any reason as to why Bargs couldn't guard the smaller men other than he is too good a post defender to move out there. I don't think that's good logic in this situation.
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  20. #40
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Can't argue with that but I don't think you really gave any reason as to why Bargs couldn't guard the smaller men other than he is too good a post defender to move out there. I don't think that's good logic in this situation.
    Actually, you yourself admitted that Bargnani has trouble guarding the quicker, more perimeter oriented players. The only player he guards well are the back to the basket players. The other ones he has trouble guarding. The problem is that Bargnani is really only effective defensively guarding centers down low, but he's not good playing help defense. If he's asked to guard smaller, more perimeter players, he's not nearly as effective, yet he conceivably won't be asked to help out as much (although that is up for debate).

    Bargnani simply doesn't have lateral quickness, quick feet or anticipation to be able to guard players out of the paint. The same reason he is not a good help defender is the same reason he's not good at guarding out of the paint. It requires a little more understanding of defense and the tendencies of your opponent. In other words, it usually requires a higher level of basketball IQ, something Bargnani simply doesn't have. Bargnani is a good post defender because he has good length and tends to stay on his feet rather than try and jump to block shots. His lack of anticipation actually works in his favour in the post because he doesn't fall for fakes.

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