Expectations on the Bosh-less Raptors

[Tim W.]

bargs was thrown in the fire so to speak when bosh went down. i think it would be unfair to judge his "take over the game" mentality in those couple of games.

Bargnani has been in the league 4 years, and been the second option for at least a year and a half. Just how much coddling does this guy need. There are players that come straight out of one year of college and perform better when asked to become the first option. LaMarcus Aldridge, who was drafted the same year, increased his scoring when Brandon Roy went out. Same with Pau Gasol and most other second options, when the first option went out with injury. All except for Bargnani. Is Bargnani such a special case that he shouldn't be expected to carry the extra load that all the other second options do when their best player goes out?

[Tim W.]

Are the Sixers and Pacers "more talented" than the Raptors? Doubtful. Are they "more talented" particularly if the rumour about Beasley is true? Very doubtful. And of course the Nets could be better if they get a couple of good free agents. Imagine that. The Raptors could be fantastic if they traded for Kobe Bryant too. I try not to live in fantasy land until it happens.

The Bucks and Bobcats were certainly better than the Raptors the last third of last season. Coincidentally mostly played without Bosh and with Hedo and Calderon, 3 factors which in all likelihood won't be with the Raptors next season. They certainly weren't better teams before Bosh got hurt against Memphis and to imply so would be simply idiotic.

I think you're underestimating the impact the loss of Bosh will have. They had 40 wins with Bosh. Without their best player (by far), you're looking at, at most, 30 wins (and I'm being optimistic). The ONLY thing the Raptors did well last year was score, and now their top scorer is likely gone.

Both Indiana and Philadelphia have improved (and Indiana was wracked with injuries). They play better defense, rebound better. And both teams drafted players that should help immediately. I'd guess both teams would end up just below .500 next season. Around where the Raptors finished this season.

And speaking of living in fantasyland, you're the one who thinks the Raptors have a chance at the playoffs. Not me. The Nets have cap space enough for 2 max free agents and will likely end up with at least one good free agent and maybe two.

The Bucks and Bobcats both came on late in the season, both due to trades. The Bobcats traded for Stephen Jackson and had a very good record after that. The Bucks traded for Salmons and ended up 6 games better than the Raptors. Both teams were on the Raptors heals when Bosh got hurt because of their improved play. And that was with Bosh.

No matter what the Raptors get for Bosh, it will be, at most, 60 cents on the dollar. Same goes for Turkoglu. That means the team is getting worse. There's a chance that Colangelo could pull some magic out of his hat and bring in some talent, but unless that happens, you're looking at 20-30 wins next season, which is fine. The Raptors shouldn't be worried about being the 8th seed and remaining mediocre. That's not the point. They need to worry about building for the future, not trying not to suck right now.

[bigmanshaq]

Just in case Beasley comes back in the S&T, here's a breakdown of his game from Draftexpress.com,
although its from his rookie year, I think it still applies to his game today.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...l-Beasley-605/

[Liston]

...No matter what the Raptors get for Bosh, it will be, at most, 60 cents on the dollar. Same goes for Turkoglu. That means the team is getting worse. ...

Have to disagree here - there are many moves for Turkoglu that will improve this team - if one is to believe rebounding and defense are important factors in winning basketball.

Turkoglu (my some measures) was a top 20 WORSE defender in the league - right there with guys like Bargnani, Lee, Beasley, Villanueva, etc.
Def Rbs % is horrid.
And Mr 4th quarter, shoots 20% from beyond the arc in crunch time. No thanks.

Give us a strong wing defender.

[DonCarlos]

I'm not sure how the Raptors will do this year.

But I think that next year, they'll be better than they were last year.

[Hassan]

i will be happy if we suck for one season and draft harrison barnes

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Bargnani has been in the league 4 years, and been the second option for at least a year and a half. Just how much coddling does this guy need. There are players that come straight out of one year of college and perform better when asked to become the first option. LaMarcus Aldridge, who was drafted the same year, increased his scoring when Brandon Roy went out. Same with Pau Gasol and most other second options, when the first option went out with injury. All except for Bargnani. Is Bargnani such a special case that he shouldn't be expected to carry the extra load that all the other second options do when their best player goes out?

If i were you, id check the stats 1st before i type words in here, check the stats buddy. Bargs had 30+ and 20+ games when Bosh went down. Aldridge had the same numbers with or without Roy.

I always read your replies here and it seems youre the designated "i disagree" poster around here. You sure youre not being paid by RR to stir up the conversations? hehehe just kidding

[mo-sales]

If the raptors were a top offense in the league with Bosh than wouldn't logic state that offense is the one department they can take a hit. They need someone to rebound enter Amir and Davis and they also need to infuse some defense into the front court enter Amir and Davis.

Indy really? They are the garbage team of garbage teams. Granger is a franchise player like Bosh is one, they have TJ at point guard and an all white front line. Give me a break about Indy.

Every single player on the raps minus Bosh and possibly Jack had a less than mediocre season. While that is not all attributable to Bosh, a fair portion of it is due to his defunct leadership, inability to make his teammates better and absent minded approach to defense. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.

This whole 60 cents on the dollar is misleading. Bosh isn't worth a full dollar, he's going to be getting paid 20 million to score 20 points and get 10 rebounds. Beasely will be getting paid 5 million to get about 18 points and 8 rebounds, now tell which one is a better value. One is a bad leader, one is a bad teammate so lets cancel those out. One guy will be milking his 9 figure deal shooting jump shots and one guy will be fighting to disprove his critics and get his own deal.

The East is going to be a wasteland and the raptors finally won't have to live up to unattainable expectations. The team is a point guard away from contending, otherwise should be at least a .500 ball club.

[sunndog]

Actually, this week's round of tweets from the newly anointed "young gunz" has me feeling really excited about the future. For the first time in our franchise's history we have a group of young players who are generally excited to be building something together in Toronto. Given how quickly Sonny, Demar and Amir have become friends and the fact that they're already beginning to welcome Davis so soon just shows you the kind of character on the team. This is exactly what the Raptors should be looking to invest in. If Bargs can find a way to jell with these guys and everyone continues to improve, the Raptors could be looking at a solid team within 3-4 years.
Obviously there will need to be a lot of improvement as well as savvy team building on the part of management, but a deal which would net the Raptors the TPE and their draft pick is a move in the right direction. Let's give the kids a chance to show us something.Consider it took OKC 3 years to make the leap and Memphis also looks like they're about to do it after a few years of slow rebuilding.

[Tim W.]

If i were you, id check the stats 1st before i type words in here, check the stats buddy. Bargs had 30+ and 20+ games when Bosh went down. Aldridge had the same numbers with or without Roy.

I always read your replies here and it seems youre the designated "i disagree" poster around here. You sure youre not being paid by RR to stir up the conversations? hehehe just kidding

Uh, I did actually check the stats. I've had this conversation before. Bargnani averaged fewer points, fewer rebounds and shot a lower percentage from the field when Bosh was out. You can check that yourself. And Aldridge's numbers did go up when Brandon Roy went out.

Disagreeing is more fun.

[Tim W.]

Have to disagree here - there are many moves for Turkoglu that will improve this team - if one is to believe rebounding and defense are important factors in winning basketball.

Turkoglu (my some measures) was a top 20 WORSE defender in the league - right there with guys like Bargnani, Lee, Beasley, Villanueva, etc.
Def Rbs % is horrid.
And Mr 4th quarter, shoots 20% from beyond the arc in crunch time. No thanks.

Give us a strong wing defender.

The thing is, Turkoglu, for all his problems, DID help the team. I certainly think the Raptors can get someone back who can help the team, but Turkoglu actually, for the most part, had a positive effect on the team (on the court). He didn't shoot all that well in crunch time, I'll give you that, but the team often played better when he was on the floor. It's why I've generally held my criticism of him in check.

[Tim W.]

This whole 60 cents on the dollar is misleading. Bosh isn't worth a full dollar, he's going to be getting paid 20 million to score 20 points and get 10 rebounds. Beasely will be getting paid 5 million to get about 18 points and 8 rebounds, now tell which one is a better value. One is a bad leader, one is a bad teammate so lets cancel those out. One guy will be milking his 9 figure deal shooting jump shots and one guy will be fighting to disprove his critics and get his own deal.

Well, first of all, Bosh didn't score 20 ppg, he scored 24. And to simply put it down to points and rebounds doesn't make sense, and I think you know that. And there's a massive, massive difference between being a bad leader and bad teammate. Besides, it's not that Bosh is a bad leader, it's just he's not an especially good one. Again, big difference. And Beasley is a poor defender. You ask every single team in the league to choose between Bosh at $16 million and Beasley at $5 and how many do you think would choose Beasley. Besides, Beasley is still on his rookie contract, so the two contracts aren't even comparable.

I get you don't like Bosh, but there are a lot of Raptors fans that have a completely distorted view of him. And it's clouding your judgement. He's certainly not an MVP calibre player, but he's close. He's probably a top 15 player in the league, and with guys like Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire getting offered the max, it's obvious that Bosh is going to get that, as well. There are probably only going to be two guys who aren't going to be overpaid this summer, and that's LeBron and Wade. MOST players are overpaid, unless they're on their rookie contract (as Beasley is). If you want to get a team solely comprised of players who are of good value, you might end up with a half decent team, but nothing more.

[Apollo]

Not to mention Beasley isn't scoring 18PPG or grabbing 8 rebounds...

[Tim W.]

Not to mention Beasley isn't scoring 18PPG or grabbing 8 rebounds...

GOod point. I forgot to mention that. Skewing stats of players your arguing for up and stats of players you are arguing against down is going to make your argument look flawed. Which, of course, it is.