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Thread: Raptors Ink Amir Johnson To A Five-year, $34 Million Deal

  1. #21
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    This is what I feared. Don't get me wrong, I like Amir, and I didn't actually think we'd get him back for $4 mil per, but I was hoping for no more than $5 mil per. That said, it's less than $2 mil more per year, and it can be argued that overpaying to keep him is better than losing him. It would just have gone down a little smoother if it was a little cheaper, and I wonder if he would have signed anyway for $29 over 5 years. If you're going to rebuild, you might as well do it the right way; every bit counts down the road.

    Of course, I have a feeling this move indicates we will be retooling rather than rebuilding. Hopefully anything we do in days to come won't clog up our future cap too much and Amir continues to get better as an all-around player, or this could be JYD 2.0, especially with the new CBA.

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    Good, they got that one out of the way.
    That is how you build a team. You keep the good apples,
    and you throw away the rotten ones.
    BTW, the penny-pinchers out there can look at what Atlanta is paying Joe to stick around

  3. #23
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    classic BC overpaying again. It seems that BC does not have a sense of market value for players or has bad negotiating skills. i just hope rap fans don`t boo Amir if he does not live up to his contract. The guy is the kind we need for this team.happy about the deal though but the price was on the high side.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Rookie Liston's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Rebounding and hustle in a player that is also extremely efficient on the offensive end are NOT easily replaceable skills. They are actually difficult skills to find and contribute to wins more than someone who is just a scorer.
    Well said. There are three parts to this game and so many think its all about scoring.
    If Amir scored 16ppg, yet opponent's blew by him and he had 4 turnovers a game, many would say "great deal!". Ug.

  5. #25
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    This is what I feared. Don't get me wrong, I like Amir, and I didn't actually think we'd get him back for $4 mil per, but I was hoping for no more than $5 mil per. That said, it's less than $2 mil more per year, and it can be argued that overpaying to keep him is better than losing him. It would just have gone down a little smoother if it was a little cheaper, and I wonder if he would have signed anyway for $29 over 5 years. If you're going to rebuild, you might as well do it the right way; every bit counts down the road.

    Of course, I have a feeling this move indicates we will be retooling rather than rebuilding. Hopefully anything we do in days to come won't clog up our future cap too much and Amir continues to get better as an all-around player, or this could be JYD 2.0, especially with the new CBA.

    Amir contract wouldn't as bad or hurt as much if it weren't for the other vastly overpayed players the Raptors have on their roster:

    Hedo
    Calderon
    R.Evans
    Banks

  6. #26
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    Did we use the MLE to re-sign Amir?

  7. #27
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    Quote IceeeD wrote: View Post
    Did we use the MLE to re-sign Amir?
    It is not an MLE deal, it is a 5 year contract which is likely a full contract situation.

  8. #28
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    Quote dn66 wrote: View Post
    Good, they got that one out of the way.
    That is how you build a team. You keep the good apples,
    and you throw away the rotten ones.
    BTW, the penny-pinchers out there can look at what Atlanta is paying Joe to stick around
    If we all followed what other teams did, then with all the Kahns and other whack jobs around, it'd be a league full of moves that don't make sense. IMO (as little as it may mean), Joe Johnson was definitely overpaid (as was Rudy Gay), but at least Atlanta is a contender and the money was used to keep a top player. For a middling team like ours, we need to manage our cap space wisely.

  9. #29
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    It is not an MLE deal, it is a 5 year contract which is likely a full contract situation.
    A MLE deal can be up to 5 years, and the amount does seem to match.

    What I'm actually a bit confused about is whether the Raptors have Amir's full Bird rights. For a team to gain full Bird rights, that player needs to have played for the same team for THREE consecutive seasons without being a free agent or being waived. Examples illustrate this being done with 2 full seasons and a half season before being traded, which lead me to now think we don't have his full Bird rights. We either have his Early Bird rights (I don't know of Early Bird rights follow the player the same was full Bird rights do), which does seem to work as well, or we just used our MLE on Amir (Bosh's cap hold puts us over the cap).

    Larry Bird Exception - max salary limited by years of service, 10.5% raises, 6 years max
    Early Bird Exception - max salary of either 175% of previous salary or just the average player salary, 10.5% raises, 5 years max
    Mid Level Exception - max salary of the average player salary, 8% raises, 5 years max

    As you can see both the MLE and the Early Bird are pretty similar.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:31 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    A MLE deal can be up to 5 years, and the amount does seem to match.

    What I'm actually a bit confused about is whether the Raptors have Amir's full Bird rights. For a team to gain full Bird rights, that player needs to have played for the same team for THREE consecutive seasons without being a free agent or being waived. Examples illustrate this being done with 2 full seasons and a half season before being traded, which lead me to now think we don't have his full Bird rights. We either have his Early Bird rights (I don't know of Early Bird rights follow the player the same was full Bird rights do), which does seem to work as well, or we just used our MLE on Amir (Bosh's cap hold puts us over the cap).

    Larry Bird Exception - max salary limited by years of service, 10.5% raises, 6 years max
    Early Bird Exception - max salary of either 175% of previous salary or just the average player salary, 10.5% raises, 5 years max
    Mid Level Exception - max salary of the average player salary, 8% raises, 5 years max

    As you can see both the MLE and the Early Bird are pretty similar.
    Amir is coming off a 3 year contract after spending his first two with the Piston, and his Bird Rights would have been transferred when he was traded. The Raptors would not have had to use the MLE to sign Amir.

    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    classic BC overpaying again. It seems that BC does not have a sense of market value for players or has bad negotiating skills. i just hope rap fans don`t boo Amir if he does not live up to his contract. The guy is the kind we need for this team.happy about the deal though but the price was on the high side.
    Drew Gooden signed with Milwaukee for only slightly less, and Amir is a much better player. I'd say, the way the signings are going, Colangelo got Amir for market value. I was hoping for a 3 year $15 million deal, but you can't negotiate in a vacuum.

  11. #31
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Amir is coming off a 3 year contract after spending his first two with the Piston, and his Bird Rights would have been transferred when he was traded. The Raptors would not have had to use the MLE to sign Amir.
    Do you mean the full Larry Bird exception or the Early Bird exception

    From the NBA Salary Cap FAQ (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q25):

    The basic idea is that a player must play for the same team for three seasons for his team to gain Bird rights (two seasons for Early Bird rights). It can be a single three-year contract, a series of three one-year contracts, or any combination that adds up to three seasons (two for Early Bird). However there are a number of complications:

    [...]

    • When a player is traded, his new team inherits his Bird rights. For example, if a player signs a three-year contract, plays two and a half seasons with that team, and is traded at the trade deadline in the third season, then his new team owns full Bird rights following the third season.
    • The first season of the three-year tenure doesn't have to be a full season. If a player is waived and signs with another team in year one, then plays with his new team for two additional seasons, his new team will have full Bird rights following the third season.
    I realize that either way, the Raptors probably have his Bird rights (full or Early) but I'm a stickler for details and don't want to be confused in the future.

  12. #32
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    If he gets the league max 10.5% annual increase his salary structure could look like this

    2010-11---$5.5
    2011-12----6.1.
    2012-13----6.7
    2013-14----7.5
    2014-15----8.2
    -----------------------------
    Total $34.0 million
    ======================
    Some comparisons to PF bench players salaries in 2010-11

    1. Varejao $7.0
    2. T. Thomas 6.2
    3. D. Gooden 6.4
    4. Anderson 4.0
    5. C. Frye 6.0
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  13. #33
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    I would have to say that Amir's 32M is better value than Gooden AND Frye... I'm happy with this signing, we need to keep the players that show heart!

  14. #34
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    Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

    I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
    http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

    But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

    According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

    Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
    Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
    C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
    R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
    Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
    Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

    What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

    Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws

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    Also, could please not compare the deals to what Gooden got because Milwakee valued scoring very highly and thus had to overpay for it (because the team was already solid in terms of rebounding and defense).

    Better analysis dictates that we should value the performance based on the production and how replacable it is. I just wanted to prove that this is the case for Amir Johnson

  16. #36
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    Sorry, 34M...

  17. #37
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    Quote dino gunners wrote: View Post
    Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

    I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
    http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

    But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

    According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

    Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
    Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
    C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
    R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
    Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
    Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

    What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

    Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws
    If you go here you will see that Amir ranked #1 in the NBA in defensive rating.

    http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

    Also go here to see his positive affect on a teams defense

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR9.HTM

    The stats on both of those sites show that the Raptors were a significantly better team defensively with him on the court than off. These are better stats in my opinion that the number at BasketballReference.com. This number is affected greatly by the teams overall defense so Amir suffered here because of being on the Raptors.

    The two sights that i linked show the difference in points allowed and opponents field goal percentage when he was on the court vs off the court. These numbers for him have been consistent over the last three years and both the Pistons and Raptors were significantly better defensive teams with him on the court then when he was not.

    Also go here for all kinds of Johnson stats. It is my Johnson blog

    http://nba-25-15.blogspot.com/
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri Jul 2nd, 2010 at 12:17 AM.
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  18. #38
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    overfuckingpaid

  19. #39
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    A MLE deal can be up to 5 years, and the amount does seem to match.

    What I'm actually a bit confused about is whether the Raptors have Amir's full Bird rights. For a team to gain full Bird rights, that player needs to have played for the same team for THREE consecutive seasons without being a free agent or being waived. Examples illustrate this being done with 2 full seasons and a half season before being traded, which lead me to now think we don't have his full Bird rights. We either have his Early Bird rights (I don't know of Early Bird rights follow the player the same was full Bird rights do), which does seem to work as well, or we just used our MLE on Amir (Bosh's cap hold puts us over the cap).

    Larry Bird Exception - max salary limited by years of service, 10.5% raises, 6 years max
    Early Bird Exception - max salary of either 175% of previous salary or just the average player salary, 10.5% raises, 5 years max
    Mid Level Exception - max salary of the average player salary, 8% raises, 5 years max

    As you can see both the MLE and the Early Bird are pretty similar.
    it is most likely that his bird rights were traded to the raptors since it was a sign and trade. the cba sort of says in my opinion that playing 3 years for a team gives that player`s team, full bird rights and the bird rights are likely traded with the sign and trade scenarios.

    an analogy is if rubio decides not to play for the timberwolves which is likely, they can trade him and his bird rights in a sign and trade to another team. teams still own players bird rights if they play outside the nba in lower leagues like europe and the d-league like josh childress with the hawks or amir when he was in the d-league affiliate of the detroit pistons possibly. bird rights can be renounced as in the delfino deal to take advantage of the cba fact that teams`own free agents can be signed over the cap to sign other free aents before signing their own free agent.

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    Quote dino gunners wrote: View Post
    Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

    I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
    http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

    But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

    According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

    Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
    Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
    C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
    R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
    Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
    Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

    What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

    Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws
    i support your opinion that his skills could be replicated in the draft. i don`t see kevin pritchard or sam presti paying amir that kind of money(sam presti probably will not be paying ibaka(solid defensively than Amir) more than $5m per) and portland, okc are small market teams like us that struggle signing free agents. i will continue to say it that bc has bad negotiating skills.the speed with which the early deals in this year`s free aency were done smirks of overpaying(rudy gay, gooden and yes amir).After this free agency, I would not be surprised to see a lot of Sean May cap killer contracts that will be grandfathered in the next cba.

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