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Thread: ESPN: Raptors Will Insist on Noah, Not Settle for Deng

  1. #61
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You seem far too desperate to find reasons to put down Bosh. The additional play experience is negligible. In the end, Bosh is a better player than Noah and you wouldn't be able to find one GM, one coach, one scout or one analyst that would say differently. I really like Noah, and my bias towards defense is well known, but there's no way he's on the same level as Bosh.
    Why isn't he though? Bosh is better than him at scoring and getting to the line. Noah is cheaper and only entering his fourth year. If its a matter of who would you rather have for the next six years, would anyone choose Bosh?

    For a lot of teams Bosh is definitely a better addition than Noah, but for the raptors who could slide Bargs to the four and have arguably the best inside/outside combo in the league, it is a no brainer.

  2. #62
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    who are the young guns? like demar, sonny etc?

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    Quote Realist wrote: View Post
    He banged horribly, he's afraid of contact. How many times at the end of games did you see him shoot jumpers instead of attacking? What about that time at the end of this passed season where he missed that "lay-up" because he went up soft.

    He's a joke. He deserves the MLE at most. Amar'e is better than Bosh, hell, Boozer is better than Bosh, 20/13 in the playoffs, Bosh got owned by Mikki Moore because he's overrated and would rather make faces at his family across the court than pay attention to crucial games.
    LOL right on. Id like to suscribe to your newsletter.

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic Rookie Killingjoke's Avatar
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    All this talk of whose better, if Bosh was much better than Noah why are the Bulls reluctant to trade him? Theyre styles of game have to fit the players on a certain team. Raps would be much better with him than Bosh. Two finesse PF in Bargs and Bosh dont work. Noah and BArgs and Bosh an Noah would fit perfectly. Respect to BC for insisting Noah be in the deal. Anyone who stands up to Lebrons oncourt antics is good in my book. He'd be the fan fave here in Toronto with his passion and defense.

    Of course the Bulls would be jus as better off with Boozer as a inside scoring presence theyve needed for years

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    yup. more experience in the playoffs, with a four year shorter career.

    and in the time noah has played all those games... bosh has played zero playoff games.
    Yes, because when we talk about a player having playoff experience, playoff games divided by seasons played is obviously a useful metric.

    Right.

  6. #66
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    Quote Killingjoke wrote: View Post
    All this talk of whose better, if Bosh was much better than Noah why are the Bulls reluctant to trade him?
    The better question is why would they NOT be reluctant to trade him when Toronto doesn't exactly have the best leverage. Use your head here.

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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Why isn't he though? Bosh is better than him at scoring and getting to the line. Noah is cheaper and only entering his fourth year. If its a matter of who would you rather have for the next six years, would anyone choose Bosh?

    For a lot of teams Bosh is definitely a better addition than Noah, but for the raptors who could slide Bargs to the four and have arguably the best inside/outside combo in the league, it is a no brainer.
    Noah is an excellent role player who, with continued hard work and development may make the All-Star team. Bosh is a top 15 player. I'm not quite sure how that is on the same level.

    Yes, Bosh has his flaws, but the way people are talking around here, it sounds as though he's a borderline starter. It's ridiculous and, as a Raptor fan, a little embarrassing. I would have hoped Raptor fans would be a little smarter than that. People are getting so wrapped up in their personal feelings, that objectivity has completely flown out the window, and unfortunately, your argument is an example.

    Bosh is, at worst, the second best player to ever put on a Raptors jersey.

    Bosh is one of the best scorers and rebounders in the entire league. He's also one of the best at getting to the line. You don't do those things without being tough. The amount of abuse guys take underneath the basket would leave most guys around here crapping their pants. He's also, at worst, an average defender, despite what some people may say around here. There are aspects of his game which I don't like, but the fact of the matter is that he makes any team he is on better and there's a reason why he's being courted by some of the best minds in the NBA.

    And since we're on the subject, can we dispense with the `Rupaul' nickname? It was mildly amusing the first time, but it's just gotten tired, now, and anyone who continues to use it just makes them self look like a pre-adolescent kid desperately trying to impress or shock people so they don't notice how young and immature they are.
    Last edited by Tim W.; Tue Jul 6th, 2010 at 02:23 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    man, the bosh ball washers will jump on anything that isnt a glowing review of the dude
    If they are Bosh ball washers, what does that make you? Be careful using insults 'lest they backfire on you.

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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    If they are Bosh ball washers, what does that make you? Be careful using insults 'lest they backfire on you.
    i'm a Raptors fan.

    Bosh isn't a Raptor.

    no knock to bosh, but wherever he goes, im not going to start cheering for them.

    we can celebrate his contributions to those two epic playoff runs while he was here in a vanity video montage at the acc after he retires... but right now i'd rather talk about players who might actually be wearing raps uniforms next year

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Quite frankly, neither option excites me in the least bit.
    How about we travel back in time and get Bill Russell, age 26, for you, Princess?

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    Quote tshabalala888 wrote: View Post
    who are the young guns? like demar, sonny etc?
    I'd also like to know who these so-called "young guns" are.

    Just because Bosh has decided to leave, suddenly there's a group of Raps fans who are dismissing his contribution to the team and offering RIDICULOUS levels of praise to his teammates.

    Suddenly, according to some, Banks is a peerless shutdown defender.
    Suddenly, according to some, the younger players on the team are "young guns". Why? What exactly have they done to earn such incredibly devotion, while our best player is suddenly expendable?

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    This is getting rediculous. Noah as an all-star? Are you kidding me? Look, he's a good player and he brings a lot in terms of heart and hustle, but this is basically a super version of Anderson Varejao we're talking about. He managed to get to 15 and 13 for the playoffs playing against an old shaq and big Z and I think that is about the high point you can expect for him at any given time. His offense is extremely limited and anyone who thinks that he isn't being propped up a bit by playing with Rose is deluded. He'd be a great pick up for Bosh in a S&T but better than bosh? COME ON PEOPLE!
    Also, where is this rim protector stuff coming from? The guy averaged 1.6 block and while his help defense is certainly good, this is not Dwight Howard we're talking about. Look I like him too, but let's just reign in the enthusiasm. He's a good player and looks like he has a pretty good ceiling of 15 and 10 and will be an important cog for the bulls in years to come but he is not a superstar and will never make an all star game in the east as long as Superman and Brook Lopez are around. Hell, Bargs got more votes last season.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  13. #73
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    Quote Brain Colangelo wrote: View Post
    How about we travel back in time and get Bill Russell, age 26, for you, Princess?
    Well Sugar-tits, if you'd care to understand my statement, what I don't like is any of my front court players being below average rebounders or on defense. That simply doesn't excite me because you can't go very far with a big man like that. Team Bosh and Noah up, and I think you can win. Throw Bargnani in there, and it's like putting sh*t in soup. No matter what other ingredients you throw in there, it's still sh*t in soup. No, I'm not comparing Bargnani to sh*t, but it's a good analogy that, I believe, gets my point across.

  14. #74
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Noah is an excellent role player who, with continued hard work and development may make the All-Star team. Bosh is a top 15 player. I'm not quite sure how that is on the same level.

    Yes, Bosh has his flaws, but the way people are talking around here, it sounds as though he's a borderline starter. It's ridiculous and, as a Raptor fan, a little embarrassing. I would have hoped Raptor fans would be a little smarter than that. People are getting so wrapped up in their personal feelings, that objectivity has completely flown out the window, and unfortunately, your argument is an example.

    Bosh is, at worst, the second best player to ever put on a Raptors jersey.

    Bosh is one of the best scorers and rebounders in the entire league. He's also one of the best at getting to the line. You don't do those things without being tough. The amount of abuse guys take underneath the basket would leave most guys around here crapping their pants. He's also, at worst, an average defender, despite what some people may say around here. There are aspects of his game which I don't like, but the fact of the matter is that he makes any team he is on better and there's a reason why he's being courted by some of the best minds in the NBA.

    And since we're on the subject, can we dispense with the `Rupaul' nickname? It was mildly amusing the first time, but it's just gotten tired, now, and anyone who continues to use it just makes them self look like a pre-adolescent kid desperately trying to impress or shock people so they don't notice how young and immature they are.
    I will agree him moving out of town tailors a lot of the arguments towards finding reasons to not want him, but in the same vein people who have been watching him for 7 years also are subjective about what he actually brings to or takes away from the table.

    People get caught up in his stats, 24-10. Those are awesome stats and he did it with really good percentages, but he was in a contract year (red flag) also taking it to the hole more than he ever was and as a result his body broke down by the end of the year.

    I don't think anyone expects him to put up those numbers again, 21-9 is much more realistic and even then the NBA records book is littered with players who can put up big numbers on a bad team. See Mike James.

    If the raps could resign him to a 3 year deal, that would be perfect, but there is a reason he wants the 6 year deal, he knows his body won't hold up. The Super max contract is like a progressive gambling strategy, it might work for a while, but sooner rather than later you are going to crap out.

    Last year was a huge eye opener for me. He put up monster stats and the raps usually lost. He couldn't handle back to backs and he always blamed his teammates when the team came up short, which while potentially true is not a chapter in a team leader handbook.

    Bosh has peaked, he might plateau for a couple years or he might plummet. Noah is still getting better, played hurt last year and brings all the intangibles that I value in a player. GM's and organizations focus far too much on what a player has done and don't focus enough on what he will do.

    What it really comes down to is that while Bosh is supremely talented I don't think he gets it and I think Noah does and that more than makes up for the talent disparity. On the right team with the players (Wade and/or Bron) Bosh might win a ring, but the raptors desperately need everything that Bosh can't provide, thus I feel Noah is a more valuable piece to the raptors than Bosh.

  15. #75
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I will agree him moving out of town tailors a lot of the arguments towards finding reasons to not want him, but in the same vein people who have been watching him for 7 years also are subjective about what he actually brings to or takes away from the table.

    People get caught up in his stats, 24-10. Those are awesome stats and he did it with really good percentages, but he was in a contract year (red flag) also taking it to the hole more than he ever was and as a result his body broke down by the end of the year.

    I don't think anyone expects him to put up those numbers again, 21-9 is much more realistic and even then the NBA records book is littered with players who can put up big numbers on a bad team. See Mike James.

    If the raps could resign him to a 3 year deal, that would be perfect, but there is a reason he wants the 6 year deal, he knows his body won't hold up. The Super max contract is like a progressive gambling strategy, it might work for a while, but sooner rather than later you are going to crap out.

    Last year was a huge eye opener for me. He put up monster stats and the raps usually lost. He couldn't handle back to backs and he always blamed his teammates when the team came up short, which while potentially true is not a chapter in a team leader handbook.

    Bosh has peaked, he might plateau for a couple years or he might plummet. Noah is still getting better, played hurt last year and brings all the intangibles that I value in a player. GM's and organizations focus far too much on what a player has done and don't focus enough on what he will do.

    What it really comes down to is that while Bosh is supremely talented I don't think he gets it and I think Noah does and that more than makes up for the talent disparity. On the right team with the players (Wade and/or Bron) Bosh might win a ring, but the raptors desperately need everything that Bosh can't provide, thus I feel Noah is a more valuable piece to the raptors than Bosh.
    well put.. couldnt agree more

  16. #76
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I will agree him moving out of town tailors a lot of the arguments towards finding reasons to not want him, but in the same vein people who have been watching him for 7 years also are subjective about what he actually brings to or takes away from the table.

    People get caught up in his stats, 24-10. Those are awesome stats and he did it with really good percentages, but he was in a contract year (red flag) also taking it to the hole more than he ever was and as a result his body broke down by the end of the year.

    I don't think anyone expects him to put up those numbers again, 21-9 is much more realistic and even then the NBA records book is littered with players who can put up big numbers on a bad team. See Mike James.
    Bosh has put up 20+/10 numbers consistently, and he's done it on playoff teams and he's done it on lottery teams.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    If the raps could resign him to a 3 year deal, that would be perfect, but there is a reason he wants the 6 year deal, he knows his body won't hold up. The Super max contract is like a progressive gambling strategy, it might work for a while, but sooner rather than later you are going to crap out.
    That's complete and utter speculation. Is that why Wade wants a 6 years contract, or LeBron? Players who tend to miss a bunch of games a year are incredibly common. It doesn't necessarily mean their body will give out. Everyone jumped on the debunked rumour about Bosh's knees a couple of months ago, but there's absolutely no evidence to support it.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Last year was a huge eye opener for me. He put up monster stats and the raps usually lost. He couldn't handle back to backs and he always blamed his teammates when the team came up short, which while potentially true is not a chapter in a team leader handbook.
    Well, this is anecdotal evidence, and not fully supported. Many times, when no one else on the team was performing, Bosh had to score more, and the team lost. This is not a indictment of Bosh, but of the rest of his team. A quote Isiah Thomas made A LONG time ago has stuck with me. He said that if he's scoring a lot, that's bad news because it means his team is not playing well.

    Besides, Bosh had some big games and they won, as well. There were many, many times last season when Bosh brought or kept the team in contention for the win.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Bosh has peaked, he might plateau for a couple years or he might plummet. Noah is still getting better, played hurt last year and brings all the intangibles that I value in a player. GM's and organizations focus far too much on what a player has done and don't focus enough on what he will do.
    I can only assume you were one of the people who thought giving Johnson his contract was a good idea. I did. And the idea that GMs are not focused enough on what a player will do is not reality. GMs too often focus too much on a player's potential, which is why guys like Villaneuva, Rudy Gay and others have recently gotten contracts far more than they are worth.

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    What it really comes down to is that while Bosh is supremely talented I don't think he gets it and I think Noah does and that more than makes up for the talent disparity. On the right team with the players (Wade and/or Bron) Bosh might win a ring, but the raptors desperately need everything that Bosh can't provide, thus I feel Noah is a more valuable piece to the raptors than Bosh.
    You're not judging Bosh and Noah by the same criteria. You criticize Bosh for not being able to carry a team when you don't ask the same of Noah. A team built around Bosh will have more success than a team built around Noah. Noah is a role player, albeit a very, very good one, but Bosh is much, much more talented. Would Noah help the Raptors? Absolutely. I'd love for the Raptors to be able to get him. He definitely brings what the Raptors need, but it's not Bosh that is the biggest weakness, it's Bargnani. Bargnani is the complete opposite of Noah. The Raptors biggest weaknesses are also Bargnani's, not Bosh's.

    You replace Bosh with Noah and the team is not going to be better. They will still have many of the same problems without more moves being done. You will still have rebounding problems because Noah isn't any better a rebounder than Bosh, and while the defense would improve, you're still going to have defensive problems with Bargnani on the floor, especially playing the four. And Noah certainly isn't going to be able to manufacture points like Bosh does, nor is he going to create double teams to allow Bargnani open looks.

    You replace Bargnani with Noah and the team improves quite a bit. The rebounding goes from poor to good, as does the defense.

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