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Thread: What Bosh "Is" & "Isn't"

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Default What Bosh "Is" & "Isn't"

    Can we agree on the following:

    a) bosh clearly isn't on the same tier as a lebron or wade (i.e. not nearly as 'good');
    b) bosh hasn't had the 'right' supporting cast put around him;
    c) the fault of 'b' lies at the feet of management;
    c) despite 'a' & 'b,' it seems clear many (most?) feel it is bosh's fault that he hasn't led the raptors to anything approaching success...and that his departure from the raptors could/should be viewed as a positive thing, a rebirth, a rejuvenation, etc.

    so, we can all accept that bosh isn't as good a player as lebron or wade, right? and we also accept that he's had - to put it mildly - marginal talent playing alongside him for the bulk of his career? not counting VC (for obvious reasons), who has been the 'best' teammate bosh has had:

    a) hedo
    b) bargs
    c) jose
    d) TJ ford
    e) mo-pete
    f) someone else who was so awesome i can't even remember them

    i guess i just have a hard time with how we can argue that bosh is both not on the same level as the truly elite players in the L, but also responsible for this team's lack of success, when so little talent has been put around him. perhaps i just find it a touch simple to make blanket statements about 'leadership,' when the masses who he is supposed to lead are, by & large, somewhat pathetic. i get the distinct impression that those making such statements have either not played the game at any kind of competitive level, or haven't done so in so long they've simply forgotten what it's like to play with either shitty players or - worse - lazy, uncommitted players.

    at the end of the day, i really don't have a horse in this race - i'm resigned to the fact that bosh is going, and that the return package - if there is one - will leave the cupboard at least somewhat bare. i don't have much optimism that BC will find a taker for hedo or jose. i don't have much optimism that either DD or weems will become the steady, consistent contributors at the wing spots that this team so desparately needs, and i don't have much optimism that either alabi or davis are going to be anything more than solid rotation players...and that that won't be the case for at least another season or two. and i know beyond a shadow of doubt that bargnani is here for the longterm.

    think what you will of bosh, how he handles himself, how he craves attention, yada yada yada...i couldn't really care less, because i never felt it was the case that he let his outside interests impact his on-court production. and it does appear likely that he's better suited to be a cog in the wheel than the wheel itself, and i concede that the likelihood of a 'build around' guy coming to TO via trade, the draft or free agency is remote. still...

    i keep trying to find teams that continued to lose their best players just as they were hitting their primes that found success at the highest level, but the list is non-existent. i guess BC is trying to set another precedent (after his 'euro'-centric expiriment).
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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Excellent post,
    I agree with your a-d (I assume the second C is a typo). I think you could put Shawn Marion and maybe JO on that list ahead of Jose but since they only stayed half a season maybe it's best they are not included.
    Your last paragraph is the thing that I want to comment on the most, specificaly about our best players stepping out in there primes. Which of those players has had success elsewhere? Vince has never made it to the finals as a star (or even close), Stoudemire disappeared, and T-mac, while he did ok for a couple seasons, is now seen as a poisonous player. I guess what I'm getting at is are we really upset that these guys left? Sure, Carter was a special player and if he had ever put in the effort he could have been one of the all-time greats, but he has ended up being a warning about what happens to spoiled players who don't work hard.
    Bosh will never lead a team to a title, not one is disputing that. He may win a title as a centra piece on a team but we would have never taken the Raptors to the next level, and I for one am hopeful about DeRozen, Weems, Amir, Davis, Alabi, (the so-called young gunz) Turk, and Bargs being able to develop into a very cohesive unit.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    depending on how carter finishes up his career, he's a borderline HOFer. i know, that sounds ridiculous now, but over time, his numbers will start to become more meaningful, and people's memories will focus more on what he was when he was one of the top players in the L who could do anything he wanted moreso than the petulant whiner & quitter we know him as.

    all T-mac did was lead the L in scoring. twice. while being one of the better overall players in the L. in his 8-yr peak, he AVERAGED 26 pts, 6.4 rbs & 5.5 assts. while he wasn't a shut-down defender, he certainly wasn't below average. it wasn't until actual injuries (as opposed to VC's kind of 'injuries') did tracy's career start to slide. no, he never did find playoff success (team-wise - his numbers in the playoffs have been excellent).
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    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Bosh will never lead a team to a title, not one is disputing that. He may win a title as a central piece on a team but he would have never taken the Raptors to the next level, and I for one am hopeful about DeRozen, Weems, Amir, Davis, Alabi, (the so-called young gunz) Turk, and Bargs being able to develop into a very cohesive unit.
    This.

    I agree that this isn't all Bosh's fault. He could have used more help, but getting rid of him, in some strange and seemingly backwards way, gives some fans hope for the future.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    T-Mac was good for a long time, but like you said it never translated into a title or really any success in the playoffs which is the only success that matters. The only situation I can see that would have worked for the Raptors is if Carter AND T-mac had stayed and coexisted. That would have been a scary backcourt that could have maybe won a title.

    It would be great if these guys had stayed in Toronto but it is getting harder and harder to get players to stay loyal. Even Kobe was talking about jumping ship a couple years ago, Garnett did take off, Ray Allen took off on the bucks, Stoudemire is now going to New York, the list goes on. And that's just on the player side, when you start looking at how management treats its stars it even worse. Really, other than Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, and Dirk is there really any star that you can say has not looked at moving to another team?
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    In terms of what Bosh is and is not, I've always found that his critics dwell a lot on what he did OFF the court to get attention, rather than his play.

    I think Bosh IS:

    - a solid post presence
    - a great rebounder
    - a competent defender
    - a great midrange shooter
    - a vocal team presence on the court

    I think Bosh ISN'T:

    - a confident passer
    - a slasher
    - a fast-break guy
    - a team leader

    I don't know if he's a "max" guy, but I do know that if he finds a team that is a good fit, he'd certainly be a strong 1A.... and he was, without question, the best player the Raps have had for several years now.... and unlike a number of other Raps, Bosh showed some serious dedication in the off-season last year to strengthen his body and add a new dimension to his game. Is he Wade? Of course not. Who cares? Ask Wade and he'll be the first one to tell you that you need OTHER positions on a basketball team.

    And... I think if he joins a team that already has a true centre and doesn't need him to battle down low all game long, we may see him bring out a new dimension in his game.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    It would be great if these guys had stayed in Toronto but it is getting harder and harder to get players to stay loyal. Even Kobe was talking about jumping ship a couple years ago, Garnett did take off, Ray Allen took off on the bucks, Stoudemire is now going to New York, the list goes on. And that's just on the player side, when you start looking at how management treats its stars it even worse. Really, other than Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, and Dirk is there really any star that you can say has not looked at moving to another team?
    my point was that teams that do not or cannot retain their own 'franchise' players do NOT win. it doesn't mean that simply retaining your best players means that you WILL win (just like spending a lot of money doesn't mean you will win), but if you don't/can't, you really have no shot. bosh isn't the be-all/end-all, but he's the best the raps have, and likely will have, for quite some time.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie Realist's Avatar
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    You put Bosh on Miami or Cleveland this season, they'd be lucky to win 20 games. Bosh had more than enough talent around him, he just isn't good enough. Simple as that. He's a MLE player at best in this league. A solid #2 at best. Anyone can stat pad against Minnesota and Memphis. When you need him the most he chokes(missed put-back lay-up to win, "sore knee" missed 2 weeks after the all-star break in a important playoff race, gets abused and embarrassed by Miki Moore in the playoffs, etc.

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    Gee bee I would add/alter a couple of things:
    is: a good rebounder not great
    yes he is a post player but inwould not say 'solid'
    agree on your other pts

    is not: I would add not a team player which is a big part of his issues and why he could not 'lead' the raptors.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Realist wrote: View Post
    You put Bosh on Miami or Cleveland this season, they'd be lucky to win 20 games. Bosh had more than enough talent around him, he just isn't good enough. Simple as that. He's a MLE player at best in this league. A solid #2 at best. Anyone can stat pad against Minnesota and Memphis. When you need him the most he chokes(missed put-back lay-up to win, "sore knee" missed 2 weeks after the all-star break in a important playoff race, gets abused and embarrassed by Miki Moore in the playoffs, etc.
    You're comments are becoming obsured. How many MLE guys avg 24/11? His teammates are a joke a always have been, nobody else ever stepped up to give him any help. Good luck to us and our new franchise player, a three point shooting C that's afraid to bang.
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote SURRealist wrote: View Post
    You put Bosh on Miami or Cleveland this season, they'd be lucky to win 20 games. Bosh had more than enough talent around him, he just isn't good enough. Simple as that. He's a MLE player at best in this league. A solid #2 at best. Anyone can stat pad against Minnesota and Memphis. When you need him the most he chokes(missed put-back lay-up to win, "sore knee" missed 2 weeks after the all-star break in a important playoff race, gets abused and embarrassed by Miki Moore in the playoffs, etc.
    -1

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Gee bee I would add/alter a couple of things:
    is: a good rebounder not great
    yes he is a post player but inwould not say 'solid'
    agree on your other pts

    is not: I would add not a team player which is a big part of his issues and why he could not 'lead' the raptors.
    Bosh was 6th in the NBA this year in RPG at 10.8. If you don't like "great", can we at least compromise at "very good"? 6th in the NBA deserves at least a "very good" imo.

    Let's come up with a descriptor for his post play. He still has to work on his ball control when under pressure, but he's certainly proven himself a capable player in that role. Can we use the word "capable" post presence?

    I'd like to be able to honestly evaluate what Bosh could bring to a potential contender. I'm not arguing that he's the No. 1 guy, but I think if the Raps want to improve, we have to recognize what Bosh provided. Pretending that we'll be as good a team or better with the same roster is dreaming.

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