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Thread: Would This Trade Fix the Raptors?

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Default Would This Trade Fix the Raptors?

    This isn't an official rumour, but a basketball columnist being bored and having fun with the ESPN Trade Machine.

    Ryan Wolstat from the Sun came up with this proposal.

    In the meantime, ESPN's trade machine is a great little time waster. I thought up a trade that possibly would set things right in Raptor-land, ie. the team would stop giving up a billion points a night and would actually win some games, thereby helping entice Chris Bosh to stay put next summer.

    The idea:

    Raptors trade:
    Andrea Bargnani, Jose Calderon, Marcus Banks, Patrick O'Bryant, future 2nd round pick.

    Clippers trade:
    Marcus Camby, Baron Davis, DeAndre Jordan, 1st round pick (top 12 protected).

    The Clippers end the flawed Davis experiment and get something for Camby who will leave this summer for nothing. Bargnani/Kaman/Griffin would be a deadly frontcourt rotation for years to come.

    The Raptors upgrade talent-wise significantly. Davis is moody and not always motivated, but surrounded by a veteran cast, he'd probably look pretty good again. Camby and Bosh would transform the Raptors from the worst defensive frontcourt in the league to an above average one that controls the glass.
    The team would free itself of some long-term commitments and have Jordan and the draft pick (plus extra money to re-sign Amir Johnson) to rebuild its front court once Camby leaves via free agency.
    Would you pull the trigger on such a deal?

    Source - Click here

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I like Bargs, I think he has a rediculous upside if they can get him playing D....but yah I'd take that deal. Camby is exactly the type of player we need and I always liked Baron Davis. And that Clippers frontcourt would definately be worth watching for years to come.

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    Not to change the subject, but i think that Colangelo isn't the type of guy to admit he is wrong with such a huge trade, however:

    Jose for Andre Miller, it cant happen for another month or something b/c Andre is in base year, but who says no to this deal?

    Miller ain't working out in Portland, he would bring veteran leadership to this struggling team.
    Jose is a team player, could be the starter there without interrupting B-Roy's flow and his defensive shittiness could be hidden by oden...

    what do people think?

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Quote chillin wrote: View Post
    Not to change the subject, but i think that Colangelo isn't the type of guy to admit he is wrong with such a huge trade, however:

    Jose for Andre Miller, it cant happen for another month or something b/c Andre is in base year, but who says no to this deal?

    Miller ain't working out in Portland, he would bring veteran leadership to this struggling team.
    Jose is a team player, could be the starter there without interrupting B-Roy's flow and his defensive shittiness could be hidden by oden...

    what do people think?
    Where do I sign?

    Welcome to the forums chillin.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I love Andre Miller but straight up isn't very mindful of long term plans. Where is Andre Miller going to be when the Raptors are ready to make some noise? Probably signing the vet minimum to hook in with a contender in a bench supporting role. The Raptors need to do better than that for Jose Calderon. If I were them I would be talking to the Nuggets about Ty Lawson and the Jazz about Eric Maynor...Not straight up but one of those names in the deal along with another young player like JR Smith or Ronnie Brewer would be great.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 04:28 PM.

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    I would do Jose Calderon + Andrea Bargnani for Andre Miller + Greg Oden...

    Portland has had interest in Calderon since his free agent year (2007), and we know Jose loves playing for Toronto but I bet if there are two teams he'd be happy to go to, they'd be LAL and POR for the obvious connection to his national teammates. Furthermore, BC is all about treating players right to build good relationships with the agents, so he wouldn't trade Jose (who has been loyal to the franchise) to a team that he wouldn't be content with...just recently in a pre game scrum Jose was praising Rudy Fernandez.

    Oden for Bargnani is almost a no-brainer for both sides. Underachieving first overall picks that don't really fit the needs of their teams. As good as Bargs can be offensively, Toronto doesn't really need his offense. Raptors need defense at the 5 spot... Defense from the front court isn't really an issue for Portland as Aldridge is pretty decent as a help defender and shot blocker and they have guys like Pryzbilla off the bench that can come in and get offensive boards and make the hustle plays. Portland would benefit tremendously from having a 5 that can stretch out the d and make it easier for Roy and Aldridge to operate inside.

    I think this is the most logical move for both sides.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Abstract, I would do that one too without blinking. Fingers crossed on Oden staying in the game long though... I hope he stays healthy because he can be a special player.

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    Trading Bargnani would be a massive admission of failure. He already traded Ford, O'Neal and Marion which were three of his biggest trade acquisitions. If he does the same with Bargnani then he truly doesn't know what the hell he's doing. That's why I wasn't so pissed when they gave Bargnani that contract, it was totally expected because what would it say about your faith in your #1 pick if you let him go into the final year of his contract without an extension....

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't know about "massive failure". That would all depend on what he gets back. No doubt Oden would fit the current team more than Bargnani. Long term I think they have comparable potential. Both a #1's... That's said, I am not "pro-trade Bargnani" but I can see the benefits in the proposed trade.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't know about "massive failure". That would all depend on what he gets back. No doubt Oden would fit the current team more than Bargnani. Long term I think they have comparable potential. Both a #1's... That's said, I am not "pro-trade Bargnani" but I can see the benefits in the proposed trade.
    I think he meant massive admission of failure (on BC's part)

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Trading Bargnani would be a massive admission of failure. He already traded Ford, O'Neal and Marion which were three of his biggest trade acquisitions. If he does the same with Bargnani then he truly doesn't know what the hell he's doing. That's why I wasn't so pissed when they gave Bargnani that contract, it was totally expected because what would it say about your faith in your #1 pick if you let him go into the final year of his contract without an extension....
    Agreed, but he'll have to acknowledge one of the following in order to move forward:

    1) Bargnani isn't what he expected him to be
    2) Signing Jose long term as the starting PG was a bad move
    3) Hiring Jay Triano when there were more capable coaches available was a bad move

    I'm sure BC realizes that one way or another, in order to progress, he'll have to address one of those points. Also, if Bosh ultimately leaves, then I'd argue that signing Jarrett Jack was a bad move too because we all know that his friendship with CB4 had a pretty substantial part in that offer. There were plenty of cheaper/just as capable options available on the market, imo.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    I think he meant massive admission of failure (on BC's part)
    I don't think he would be admitting failure at all. Bargnani isn't a bust. If he could land a fellow #1 who everyone considered a far better prospect than him not too long ago then how is that a failure? Its an upgrade.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't think he would be admitting failure at all. Bargnani isn't a bust. If he could land a fellow #1 who everyone considered a far better prospect than him not too long ago then how is that a failure? Its an upgrade.
    Well it would be a failure because Colangelo had plenty of opportunities to evaluate Bargnani's talent. And I dont think it's a matter of saying he's a bust, but rather about his effectiveness on the way this roster is constructed.

    It was Colangelo after all that determined that Bargnani should be a key piece to this team (that in his eyes includes Bosh at the 4) and gave him that $50 million contract.

    Furthermore, it would be admitting that his concept of long athletic bigs dominating the game with their finesse is a bit exaggerated. He would be taking back a classic NBA big in Oden who has the architecture of an anti-Colangelo 5.

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    But we should also consider that the MLSE is all about making money and Bargnani gets them serious exposure in Italy and Europe... regardless of how effective he is with this current lineup and system.

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    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    I would do Jose Calderon + Andrea Bargnani for Andre Miller + Greg Oden...

    Oden for Bargnani is almost a no-brainer for both sides. Underachieving first overall picks that don't really fit the needs of their teams. As good as Bargs can be offensively, Toronto doesn't really need his offense. Raptors need defense at the 5 spot... Defense from the front court isn't really an issue for Portland as Aldridge is pretty decent as a help defender and shot blocker and they have guys like Pryzbilla off the bench that can come in and get offensive boards and make the hustle plays. Portland would benefit tremendously from having a 5 that can stretch out the d and make it easier for Roy and Aldridge to operate inside.

    I think this is the most logical move for both sides.
    You're crazy. There is no way Portland is going to trade Oden. Why on earth would anyone give up on a 21 year old center in his second full season? He's finally starting to pan out (12 points, 9 rebounds, 2.4 blocks) and is improving steadily. No point in trading for Bargnani for just 6 or 7 more points, and less rebounds, less blocks, and much worse defense. Portland just needs time to develop, there's no sense in trading their defensive anchor.

    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Trading Bargnani would be a massive admission of failure. He already traded Ford, O'Neal and Marion which were three of his biggest trade acquisitions. If he does the same with Bargnani then he truly doesn't know what the hell he's doing. That's why I wasn't so pissed when they gave Bargnani that contract, it was totally expected because what would it say about your faith in your #1 pick if you let him go into the final year of his contract without an extension....
    I agree. I feel Bargnani is the Raptor least likely to be traded this season. He's a 24 year-old who has just been given a 5-year extension and is someone who really does have lots of potential to improve. Believe it or not, Colangelo isn't that foolish, he has his own reputation to uphold.

    Calderon, on the other hand, is a different story. Unfortunately his contract is terrible for teams to take on. One place off the top of my head I can see for him is the Lakers. He wouldn't that much worse than Derek Fisher defensively and would be an upgrade offensively.

    So I ran this through ESPN's trade machine and the money works:
    Lakers receive:
    Jose Calderon
    Patrick O'Bryant

    Raptors receive:
    Derek Fisher
    Adam Morrison

    Fisher and Morrison are expiring contracts. So obviously this isn't something you do right now, more like at the deadline if Toronto is way out of the playoff picture. But then we'd also have to trade Bosh at the deadline/in the offseason. I don't know, there's going to be a lot of work to be done this offseason if we don't turn things around quick. But I have faith in Colangelo, he's definitely not going to stand back and let things play out.

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    Raptors Republic Starter James Ballswin (Realizar)'s Avatar
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    Why would Portland pair Bargs with Aldridge who's style of play is almost identical as Bosh's. If the Bosh/Bargs pairing isn't working here, why would Portland/Pritchard think it pairing Bargs with Aldridge would succeed?

    I would be shocked if Prichard agreed to a Jose/Bargs for Miller/Oden deal.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    Well it would be a failure because Colangelo had plenty of opportunities to evaluate Bargnani's talent. And I dont think it's a matter of saying he's a bust, but rather about his effectiveness on the way this roster is constructed.
    You have it wrong. Bargnani is a highly talented player. If there is a failure here its not due to Bargnani. Colangelo DID have plenty of time to evaluate Bargnani's talent and Colangelo did evaluate Bargnani's talent. So much so that he began scouting the center two years before he was drafted...Even before he was in Toronto... Bargnani is extremely good at what he does and is getting better all the time. If he were playing PF and had a strong prototypical center playing next to him there would be no complaints about him. So, if you want to call Colangelo a failure then do it because he didn't place the right guys around Bargnani and not because Bargnani isn't playing a style of game that is outside his comfort zone. Bargnani is delivering exactly what was advertised and is improving a lot. If it hasn't fit the team this year then its Colangelo's fault for throwing him into situations that are outside his territory. If I tossed you in a pool in over your head and you drowned who's fault is it? Is it yours for not knowing how to swim or is it my fault for forcing you into a situation that I knew was outside the realm of your abilities? That said it still doesn't make Colangelo a failure for drafting Bargnani because he has a very good player on his hands.

    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    It was Colangelo after all that determined that Bargnani should be a key piece to this team (that in his eyes includes Bosh at the 4) and gave him that $50 million contract.
    I think time will tell that $10M/yr for Bargnani is a good deal for the team holding his contract. He is going to provide production like a bigger, taller Rashard Lewis.

    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    Furthermore, it would be admitting that his concept of long athletic bigs dominating the game with their finesse is a bit exaggerated. He would be taking back a classic NBA big in Oden who has the architecture of an anti-Colangelo 5.
    I think its obvious what he's doing doesn't work. Who doesn't know this? At the end of the day if he were to parlay Bargnani into something that made the team work then I see no failure. I see success.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 09:22 PM.

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    Apollo, I'm not disputing the scouting or evaluation process that went into drafting Bargnani, and I agree with you that he would certainly have a higher success rate playing at the 4. My point is that this team already has a perennial all-star PF... Colangelo knew this all along and has invested in Bargnani to play the 5. This is the problem imo.

    If Bosh wasn't on this roster then I wouldn't even think about trading AB, but let's say that Bosh leaves at the end of this season and Bargnani moves in as our starting PF... is that even a lateral move?

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Trading Bargnani would be a massive admission of failure. He already traded Ford, O'Neal and Marion which were three of his biggest trade acquisitions. If he does the same with Bargnani then he truly doesn't know what the hell he's doing. That's why I wasn't so pissed when they gave Bargnani that contract, it was totally expected because what would it say about your faith in your #1 pick if you let him go into the final year of his contract without an extension....
    Marion was "traded" because he had no intention of staying here. I'm sure BC would've liked to keep Marion here but I think he saw that this is a sinking ship.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star brothersteve's Avatar
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    A trade would probably help BUT

    This one is too much and

    A trade is not enough!
    Jay Triano either needs some hand holding or a replacement. Help him or Fire him!
    The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

    Stephen Brotherston, Pro Bball Report

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