SIGNING: Kleiza To Raptors (Update: Pg. 23/Post #183)

[Tortacular]

Travis Outlaw is much more interesting than Kleiza to me. But neither of them were that interesting because they're both tweeners who struggle to get their own shot. Why guys like that are getting much money is puzzling.

[Dinger]

Wow Bo and Charles ? Suddenly I'm questioning the opinions some of you self proclaimed experts have out there .HAH

[Quixotic]

BC took over a team with CAP room, first over all pick and a young super star in making.
Where are we after all those years ? NO WHERE.

BC has failed miserably and has been exposed as a deal junkie who does not understand team chemistry or team building.

Look at his signings this season, you don't know if he wants to rebuild and develop young players or he wants to compete.

He tried to trade Jose and Hedo and failed big time because he over paid them and ...

A Total failure as a GM. Time to Fire him ASAP.

Hey, let's try to keep it in context here. We had 12 mil in cap room in the 2006 off-season, the 1st overall in one of the weakest drafts of the past 10 years, and a young super-star that most of you have derided as not being franchise material. It's easy to think cap room + 1st overall + super star = max FA + Durant + Wade, but that just wasn't the case.

If anything, that first off-season was BC's best; Parker + Garbajosa were great additions that quickly turned the team around, and I don't care if the competition was weak. You don't win 20 extra games off just weak competition, or you'd see every single team doing the same (and thus cancelling each other out).

It's arguable whether we should have taken Aldridge over Bargnani, but there was no way any team would have taken Roy 1st overall. Even Portland passed over him once before picking/trading for him. And now that Gay has received his max deal, I have to wonder if we were better off without him.

The problem is Ford re-emphasized his high injury risk and we lost Garbajosa, whose glue guy value cannot be underestimated. My problem with BC is he's a bit trigger happy. Instead of having a long-term vision, he is not afraid of changing his vision based on the short-term, so we saw fix after fix after our initial success. I was fine with picking up O'Neal to deal with Howard since Ford was a risk anyway (and look at where he's ended up, despite being on a team that badly needs a PG). Turkoglu... not so much, but the signings of this summer have made his deal look perfectly reasonable. I didn't like us picking Hedo up but we have to take everything in perspective. It seemed like we needed to compete immediately to retain Bosh. Again, if we don't do revisionist history here, Turkoglu was (seemingly) the best FA we could get our hands on (I would rather have struck out and hoped for internal growth). It was a quick fix that just didn't pan out.

What I like the most is if BC didn't do a good job in the summer of 2006 -- if we had continue to tank and landed a top 2 pick -- we would have obtained Durant (or god-forbid, Oden) and BC would look like a genius today. Sometimes, it's all about timing.

[Lark Benson]

Who exactly from Derozan, Weems, Johnson, Davis, Bargnani and Alabi is lacking of potential and upside? All six of those players define potential and upside. I would also like to point out that Derozan, Weems, Davis and Alabi are all on rookie-scale contracts.

All three of your propositions are definite possibilities for how the Raptors can get better. They are precisely why having a stable of good, competitive players is an asset.

If you think that any of the Raptors current group of young players has the potential to develop into the kind of top-10, game-changing player that is required in order to make a deep playoff run, then I'm not quite sure what to say to you.

As for the options I listed being viable ways of rebuilding a team, well, a look at the playoff teams of the last 5 years or so (with the exception of course of the fluke that was/are the Celtics) might dissuade you. The Raptors do not have a 'stable of good, competitive players'. They have some young players who MIGHT develop and increase their value, a few decent players on decent contracts, a couple of albatross contracts that aren't close to expiring, and a few contracts that expire next year. If you move the youth and expiring deals for a proven star, you get a low-level playoff team. I'm not interested in another group that will be competing for a first or second round playoff exit over the next 4 years, I'm interested in a true and proper rebuilding process with an eye toward building a team that can compete for a shot at the finals over the course of multiple years.

[Dinger]

Its all good Tortacular, I feel like Outlaw has more game just from watching him throughout his career, whereas Kleiza is more of a fly by night and gone type of talent.

[sleepz]

So... he's younger than Outlaw, relatively comparable in skill, and our offer to him was one year less and $2 mill per year less than Outlaw got? Do I have that right?

That sounds like a good signing to me if Denver doesn't match.

Out law is a much better defender than Klezia.

Don't any of you remeber Kleiza when he played for the Nuggets?

Solid offensive player but below average defender. The Raps have the market cornered with these type of players

[Tim W.]

I didn't say European players were bad. I said you can't use the "European Model", which means you can't have a team with half to more then half the roster being Europeans. The strategy has failed for the last three years.

WRONG! This argument is totally and completely flawed. By the same argument I could say that you can't with an all American roster because of a team like Philadelphia, that didn't have a European player in the rotation.

And in the last three years, the Raptors had the worst record when they had the fewest Europeans on the roster. In fact, in the 8 years since the Raptors last made the playoffs with Vince Carter, their best record was when they had the most Europeans in the rotation.

The problem is not with the fact that the Raptors have Europeans on the roster it's WHO come of those Europeans are. If the Raptors had more Europeans like Garbajosa or Kleiza, gritty players who don't mind getting their hands dirty, and less Bargnani and Turkoglu, then the Raptors wouldn't have a problem.

Ignorant fans need to get over this twisted belief that Europeans are the problem. Lack of talent, defense and rebounding are the problem. The two are not related as the more successful teams have proven. There are plenty of Europeans out there that are talented, play defense and rebound. It just so happens those are not the players that are on the Raptors, for the most part.

As for Kleiza, the majority of people who are bashing the signing have MAYBE seen him play a few times and that's it. Some, maybe never. I would have loved to get Travis Outlaw, but New Jersey paid a lot more for him than the Raptors paid for Kleiza, and it's a good bet that Outlaw would never have chosen Toronto over New Jersey. They have more money, a guaranteed starting spot, and will be a New York team in 2 years.

Many this thread is getting out of control.

[Quixotic]

If you think that any of the Raptors current group of young players has the potential to develop into the kind of top-10, game-changing player that is required in order to make a deep playoff run, then I'm not quite sure what to say to you.

As for the options I listed being viable ways of rebuilding a team, well, a look at the playoff teams of the last 5 years or so (with the exception of course of the fluke that was/are the Celtics) might dissuade you. The Raptors do not have a 'stable of good, competitive players'. They have some young players who MIGHT develop and increase their value, a few decent players on decent contracts, a couple of albatross contracts that aren't close to expiring, and a few contracts that expire next year. If you move the youth and expiring deals for a proven star, you get a low-level playoff team. I'm not interested in another group that will be competing for a first or second round playoff exit over the next 4 years, I'm interested in a true and proper rebuilding process with an eye toward building a team that can compete for a shot at the finals over the course of multiple years.

Well, you're forgetting the main key. We may not have a top-10 talent, but either we suck (as young, rebuilding teams tend to do) and get a chance at the next big thing, or we hope that what happened with the Timberwolves and Sonics happens again. I'm not saying what happened with Boston is likely to happen again; just pointing out that Jefferson + Gomes + etc wasn't exactly a great young, rebuilding team either. And OKC's young players would not look that great without Durant + Westbrook either (both very high picks). Of course, there's every chance that we end up like the Hawks (Marvin Williams + Shelden Williams + Josh Childress + Acie Law).

[Quixotic]

If the Raptors had more Europeans like Garbajosa or Kleiza, gritty players who don't mind getting their hands dirty, and less Bargnani and Turkoglu, then the Raptors wouldn't have a problem.

Not to mention Kleiza spent his formative basketball years in the US. :-p

It's odd, but for a country supposedly founded on racial tolerance, Canada seems to have just as much ignorance as the US, but only when sports are involved, apparently. And it's not even the thinly-veiled racism/nationalism; it's the pure ignorance that blinds people from noticing Kleiza spent high school and college in the US, so if he learned "the Euro game" it was in an American setting.

[Buddahfan]

This is simply NOT true. You are getting their numbers and moving them to 48 minutes and ...

Your Boy, can not even play 48 minutes, hell, he can not even stay in the floor for 20. Outlaw on the other hand has all the offensive game and defensive games and has performed on the play off levels.

Amir's best performance was in handful of games in a garbage team of Raptors, in a garbage and meaningless games while outlaw played well in Play offs and in a good team against great opponents.

You can massage some statistics and get what you want out of it and use it as advertisement for your Boy but the fact is, Outlaw has over played Amir constantly in during the past few years.

Anyway, who cares, BC is being exposed for being a Dumb ASS GM that he is and Amir will get exposed this season when he actually has to play real basketball and NOT just jump up and down and commit fouls.

The numbers are not massaged. They are straight from BasketballReference.com

You are quickly wearing out your welcome.

If you are that in love with Bosh than follow him and root for him in Miami. Nothing wrong with that. But taking your frustration out on this forum is weak and boring to say the least.

[Bendit]

one more thing....

Kleiza's also a great signing because he's a complementary fit. He's not the type of player who needs the ball in his hands constantly in order to be effective. One of his biggest strengths was his spot up shooting which IMO was a huge weakness for the Raps last year. Kleiza will stretch the floor for the Raps and provide a perimeter threat, something that was sorely missing last year.

Good posts on Kleiza.

The few times I have seen him he came across as a Nocioni clone...hard nosed.

This Euro thing is getting stale.

A reason he left for Europe in addition to the money was his diminished playing time (i think because of Andersen).

[Buddahfan]

My guess is that most posted blasting the Kleiza signing are

1. Ticked off that Bosh is gone
2. Ticked off that Beasley is not coming in return
3 #1 and #2 above.

[Lark Benson]

Well, you're forgetting the main key. We may not have a top-10 talent, but either we suck (as young, rebuilding teams tend to do) and get a chance at the next big thing, or we hope that what happened with the Timberwolves and Sonics happens again. I'm not saying what happened with Boston is likely to happen again; just pointing out that Jefferson + Gomes + etc wasn't exactly a great young, rebuilding team either. And OKC's young players would not look that great without Durant + Westbrook either (both very high picks). Of course, there's every chance that we end up like the Hawks (Marvin Williams + Shelden Williams + Josh Childress + Acie Law).

That was actually exactly my point. The Celtics were a fluke of a rebuild, and the raptors signing Kleiza does not fit with a team trying to rebuild in the standard mode by stockpiling young assets and letting them develop and/or trading them for established talent down the line.

[Buddahfan]

That was actually exactly my point. The Celtics were a fluke of a rebuild, and the raptors signing Kleiza does not fit with a team trying to rebuild in the standard mode by stockpiling young assets and letting them develop and/or trading them for established talent down the line.

Kleiza is 25 and won't be 26 until 2011.

I think that qualifies as a young asset.

Players don't have to be 19 - 22 to be a young asset.

[Lark Benson]

My guess is that most posted blasting the Kleiza signing are

1. Ticked off that Bosh is gone
2. Ticked off that Beasley is not coming in return
3 #1 and #2 above.

No, I'm blasting it because it shows that BC (and possibly MLSE) are more committed to making money in the short term by putting out a mediocre product than building a winner long-term. IMO, this just makes the team like a Charlotte or an LA Clippers or a Milwaukee, just treading water and hoping that a fluke playoff run will generate some revenue.

You don't sign complementary players to 4 year deals when you have no idea how they'll complement the franchise player that you're going to have to acquire somewhere along the way if you want to win a title.