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Thread: Tanking vs. Rebuilding

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Default Tanking vs. Rebuilding

    Tanking: Intentionally losing in order to get good draft picks.

    Rebuilding: Adding young players in order to create a good team for the future. Winning and losing are irrelevant until the new core is developed.

    I've been noticing that a lot of people are getting these two things confused so I thought I'd post this in case people were wondering. I am pro rebuild and anti-tank.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    No tanking please, it would be like cheating. Raptors should be rebuilding as tanking is too risky from more reasons:
    1. Even if you have the worst record, you may not end up with the first pick.
    2. If you get a top pick, you may not have the best player available (i.e. Darko Milici)
    3. The bad reputation of supporting losing culture.
    4. Raptors may lose their best asset: their fans!

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Something is missing in this thread. Colangelo sounds as though he's not doing either of these scenarios right now. I mean look at how he's using the MLE.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Third Choice:

    Retooling: When you're on the last year of your contract and by all rights should be rebuilding but instead choose to sign over the hill useless free agents and trade your youth in order to be a mediocre, lucky to be in the first round of the playoffs, pretty frigging bad excuse for a team.

    Sorry I missed that one Apollo

    Edit: Keiza is not a retooling piece as Marz pointed out below.
    Last edited by hateslosing; Fri Jul 9th, 2010 at 01:05 PM.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Something is missing in this thread. Colangelo sounds as though he's not doing either of these scenarios right now. I mean look at how he's using the MLE.
    Kleiza isn't "Adding young players in order to create a good team for the future"? He's young, and he's well polished. I don't like the signing either but it's definitely a step in the rebuilding process while remaining competitive. Colangelo doesn't tank. We have tonnes of youth on the roster and only 2 "old" veterans in Hedo and Jose. I see no reason to think we're not rebuilding.

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    isn't Jose 27 or 28?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Rap Challenger's Avatar
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    @#$! tanking. Fight! I'm with Colangelo on this one.

    If the Milwaukee Bucks can do it, so should the Raptors. Demote Triano. Put in a real coach like Scott Skiles or somethin', and play your ass off with what you've got. Give the reigns to PJ Carlisimo. There are so many poorly run teams out there, the Raptors should put in a much more experienced coach a la Larry Brown to develop this young squad and make them compete. We're wasting valuable time with Triano right now.
    "Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."
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    Rap Challenger, so you'd rather get blasted as an 8 seed on a regular basis than suck it up and build a team that can do some damage? why? where's the "fight" in that?

    To the rest, so far Colangelo seems to be rebuilding. Unless he signs someone like Hedo - an older, possbily not very good, expensive free agent, that seems to be what he's doing. He can call it whatever the hell he wants. If Kleiza's deal sticks, he won't have the MLE and so won't have $ to throw around. So we may be rebuilding while trying to convince the corporate box holders and idiots in the lower bowl with their blackberries that it's still a competitive team next year. If that's so, good.

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    No tanking please, it would be like cheating. Raptors should be rebuilding as tanking is too risky from more reasons:
    1. Even if you have the worst record, you may not end up with the first pick.
    2. If you get a top pick, you may not have the best player available (i.e. Darko Milici)
    3. The bad reputation of supporting losing culture.
    4. Raptors may lose their best asset: their fans!
    5. TO may loose the franchise in worst case.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    The last team that blatantly tanked was Miami.... go figure.

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    Ill say im rebuild
    but im not really anti-tanking
    I just feel that if we have a young team the losses will come

    But i will say that i hope that we do get a good draft pick this year

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    Default rebuilding

    Rebuilding!
    If you take away Turkoglu and Jose, the Raptors are a very young team;

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Rap Challenger's Avatar
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    Quote Sam wrote: View Post
    Rap Challenger, so you'd rather get blasted as an 8 seed on a regular basis than suck it up and build a team that can do some damage? why? where's the "fight" in that?

    To the rest, so far Colangelo seems to be rebuilding. Unless he signs someone like Hedo - an older, possbily not very good, expensive free agent, that seems to be what he's doing. He can call it whatever the hell he wants. If Kleiza's deal sticks, he won't have the MLE and so won't have $ to throw around. So we may be rebuilding while trying to convince the corporate box holders and idiots in the lower bowl with their blackberries that it's still a competitive team next year. If that's so, good.
    The other option is trying to build a team through the draft and, personally, I think that's playing with fire. Milwaukee is no-mans land but they're looking more and more attractive to free agents because they're outplaying other teams and are considered a legitimate, competitive team. Let's face it, to most US players in the league, Toronto is fast becoming the "other Minnesota" - especially with its soft, euro-mix roster. If we "tank" for 3-5 years, we risk developing a reputation of being a minor league market; the NBADL team; Canada's Clippers.

    Ask Timberwolves, Clippers and 76ers fans how they feel about tanking. And IMO, the Raps will fall harder and faster with the "tank" strategy.
    Last edited by Rap Challenger; Fri Jul 9th, 2010 at 03:05 PM.
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    Lets get one thing straight, No team will loose intentionally in NBA But when you trade away your best players for Draft Pick and expiring contracts, then you will automatically loose.

    Look at Toronto right now, BC can stay with current team, let the young players develop while trying to acquire more picks by moving some of his movable players like Jack.

    Or he can sign average players to long contract and keep this team mediocre fighting for play off spot and ... keeping some dumb asses happy.

    Right now, it seems like BC is going with the 2nd choice. You can not rebuild like that when you offer long contracts to unproven players and over pay them. You can not rebuild by getting late first round picks and ...


    We need to start over like Washington is doing or OKC did after Ray Allen or Wolfs are finally doing after Garnett. However, BC is NOT the right guy for this job and his recent moves prove that.

    So we can not talk about a real rebuild till this guy is in charge. Fire him and Raptor will be in the right path.

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    Quote benitonicoya wrote: View Post
    Rebuilding!
    If you take away Turkoglu and Jose, the Raptors are a very young team;
    Well, it is not as simple. When your GM over pays, you can not simply trade those players and it becomes a difficult task. Add to that List, Amir's contract as well in a year and some might even argue AB. Our GM is blocking our way to a real rebuild by giving these ridiculous contracts that no one in NBA wants

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Kleiza isn't "Adding young players in order to create a good team for the future"? He's young, and he's well polished. I don't like the signing either but it's definitely a step in the rebuilding process while remaining competitive. Colangelo doesn't tank. We have tonnes of youth on the roster and only 2 "old" veterans in Hedo and Jose. I see no reason to think we're not rebuilding.
    He's going to get paid around what Parker and Garbajosa got paid. Do you feel he can make that kind of impact? They're making a large investment.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Lets get one thing straight, No team will loose intentionally in NBA But when you trade away your best players for Draft Pick and expiring contracts, then you will automatically loose.
    Sorry if this sounds like the grammar police, but I've noticed you keep doing this. It's not "loose"it's "lose". A team will lose. Something can be loose.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled comments.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Priest's Avatar
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    I dont think BC will ever say he is going to rebuild. But if you look at the roster he already kind of started doing it. Kleiza is young and I beleive we are getting picks back for Bosh so consider ourselves 2 years into rebuilding now, thats how i see it anyways. The only thing I would like to be done is trade Jose just because he deserves to be on a winning team and can get us some good stuff back. Not Hedo yet because his value is not quite what it should be at I would say wait until deadline day for him.

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    Default Do both?

    BC has a bunch of young guys on the roster now. I don't really see how he is going to be able to pick up any young stars at the moment anyway. Draft is next year, and Jose and Turk are not getting Derrick Rose back.

    the question is whether they start teaching them to play the game properly, like to play defence and practice the fundamentals there of, and give the young guys time on the court. Turk can be the man, but I want the young wings to get 25 a game, at least. If you are going to scale back, scale back on Turk. Knowing our management, the vets will play most of the minutes. We dont' need younger bodies as much as we need to teach and play the ones we have.

    For example, Alabi will suck this year. But can we work on his rebounding and help defence so that he has made substantial progress in those areas this year? then, we reinforce those and work on another aspect or 2 next year, etc. . Can we just give him time, for once?

    The only guy who has gotten time has been Bargnani, and he has improved in spite of himself. His defence is huge compared to where it was, though he still is totally confused about rotations. his man to man defence is light years better than when he got here as is his low post game, which was non-existant as a roookie. Takes time and teaching. No quicker fix possible.

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    I think Alabi and Davis are both going to suck this year and im not expecting anything from either player but derozan and weems I think are going to have great years. Both are confident and ready to step up and accept larger roles with the team I think they are going to be the X factors for us next season..

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