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Letter from Bryan Colangelo

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  • #31
    RBB wrote: View Post
    ...are all of you too young or too blind to recall what occurred during the VC trade days.

    VC's stock was at an alltime low. Few wanted the guy. 99% of TO fans wanted him out. If you don't recall how bad it actually was, just go back and try to search the sports-headlines. When the VC trade trade occurred, people were happy. Not b/c we got back anything, but b/c we got rid of that #### Vince.

    Seriously - hindsight is 20/20. Backcock was garbage, but at the time VC had so little value it was incredible. Babcock did terribly, however we weren't going to get much more than what Babcock had received.
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. And yes, my memory of those days (and even the Damon Stoudamire days) is fine. Your memory, though, might need a bit of work.

    Of course VC's stock was at an all-time low. He had only been stinking it up that season after several brilliant seasons, to the point where the coach benched him during the team's important minutes. Any-time your performance decreases like that after averaging over 20+ ppg per season, your stock is inherently at an all-time low. But "few wanted the guy" can't be farther from the truth, and "99% of fans wanted him out" is a stat you just made up, not to mention the fans that wanted him out didn't want him out for nothing in return.

    When you say fans were happy after we traded him, that's you coloring the events with how YOU felt. If the moment the trade was announced can be considered 20/20 hindsight then fine, but it's not like years later, looking back, we finally realized how shitty that trade was. That realization was instant and the only reason anyone might have thought the deal was okay is if 1) they thought Mourning would actually play for the Raptors (oh Raptor fans and our fascination with big names), and 2) they didn't know who Aaron Williams and Eric Williams were. The reality of that situation broke pretty soon after the trade too. The only criticism truly deserving of being called hindsight is the realization now that we essentially traded Vince for Joey Graham and a bunch of cap ballast.

    How do you know we wouldn't have gotten more than Babcock received? Do you have an alternate universe machine? I certainly don't, and while I can't tell you what we would have received, I can certainly say we did not try to trade him for very long. It's not like we didn't have 2.5 years remaining on his contract to trade him for crap. If his value was that low, as you suggest, it certainly could not have hurt to wait longer. No, Babcock pounced on the trade almost immediately -- a trade involving two meaningless D-Leaguers would have taken as long to complete -- and then instead of suspending Mourning without pay for refusing to report, he again did the "gentlemanly" thing and bought his contract out, citing the team's doctors as saying Mourning did not meet the medical standards for playing with the sad-sack Raptors, though apparently he was fine enough to play for the 2005-2006 NBA champions. The trade should have been made contingent on all players passing their physicals, and the moment Mourning failed his, we should have at least forced them to substitute someone else for him or rescind the trade. Realizing he'd go on to win the championship is hindsight, but we already knew in February 2005 that rather than buying him out, we should have just suspended his butt without pay as a team with any pride remaining would do.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Sat Jul 10, 2010, 03:32 PM.

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    • #32
      Quixotic wrote: View Post
      I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. And yes, my memory of those days (and even the Damon Stoudamire days) is fine. Your memory, though, might need a bit of work.

      Of course VC's stock was at an all-time low. He had only been stinking it up that season after several brilliant seasons, to the point where the coach benched him during the team's important minutes. Any-time your performance decreases like that after averaging over 20+ ppg per season, your stock is inherently at an all-time low. But "few wanted the guy" can't be farther from the truth, and "99% of fans wanted him out" is a stat you just made up, not to mention the fans that wanted him out didn't want him out for nothing in return.

      When you say fans were happy after we traded him, that's you coloring the events with how YOU felt. If the moment the trade was announced can be considered 20/20 hindsight then fine, but it's not like years later, looking back, we finally realized how shitty that trade was. That realization was instant and the only reason anyone might have thought the deal was okay is if 1) they thought Mourning would actually play for the Raptors (oh Raptor fans and our fascination with big names), and 2) they didn't know who Aaron Williams and Eric Williams were. The reality of that situation broke pretty soon after the trade too. The only criticism truly deserving of being called hindsight is the realization now that we essentially traded Vince for Joey Graham and a bunch of cap ballast.

      How do you know we wouldn't have gotten more than Babcock received? Do you have an alternate universe machine? I certainly don't, and while I can't tell you what we would have received, I can certainly say we did not try to trade him for very long. It's not like we didn't have 2.5 years remaining on his contract to trade him for crap. If his value was that low, as you suggest, it certainly could not have hurt to wait longer. No, Babcock pounced on the trade almost immediately -- a trade involving two meaningless D-Leaguers would have taken as long to complete -- and then instead of suspending Mourning without pay for refusing to report, he again did the "gentlemanly" thing and bought his contract out, citing the team's doctors as saying Mourning did not meet the medical standards for playing with the sad-sack Raptors, though apparently he was fine enough to play for the 2005-2006 NBA champions. The trade should have been made contingent on all players passing their physicals, and the moment Mourning failed his, we should have at least forced them to substitute someone else for him or rescind the trade. Realizing he'd go on to win the championship is hindsight, but we already knew in February 2005 that rather than buying him out, we should have just suspended his butt without pay as a team with any pride remaining would do.
      99% was an embellishment. It is not a true fact. My recollection is just fine of how people felt about Vince, and how people (generally) felt about the trade. It is not solely ME that felt that way - people wanted him gone. (I have been searching to try to find comments and postings from 2004 to backup this claim but currently to no avail).

      You said that babcock jumped quickly on a trade..but its not as if this was a 1-week or 1-month window where Babcock was shopping him - they were shopping him for a while. Corollary being that offers could not have been superb since (or likely would have been much better) they got minimal. Waiting 2.5 years to trade him - a lot can happen in that amount of time to have sweetened the deal. Its a good thing that GMs in ANY sport usually wait that long. Give me a break, be realistik and bridge the gap between theory vs. practicality.

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      • #33
        RBB wrote: View Post
        99% was an embellishment. It is not a true fact. My recollection is just fine of how people felt about Vince, and how people (generally) felt about the trade. It is not solely ME that felt that way - people wanted him gone. (I have been searching to try to find comments and postings from 2004 to backup this claim but currently to no avail).

        You said that babcock jumped quickly on a trade..but its not as if this was a 1-week or 1-month window where Babcock was shopping him - they were shopping him for a while. Corollary being that offers could not have been superb since (or likely would have been much better) they got minimal. Waiting 2.5 years to trade him - a lot can happen in that amount of time to have sweetened the deal. Its a good thing that GMs in ANY sport usually wait that long. Give me a break, be realistik and bridge the gap between theory vs. practicality.
        Glad you admit it was embellishment. So tell me, is embellishment your usual method of making good arguments? Anything else you embellished?

        I did say that fans that wanted him out did not want a straight dump. There's a big difference between "please trade him" and "please get rid of him at any cost". I was one of the "please trade him" group, but if you're going to get rid of him for nothing, I'd rather just send him home for as long as it takes to re-think his priorities.

        You are mistaken that they were shopping him for a while. From your memory, at what point did the fans or the organization decide we needed to trade him? It couldn't have been before the season began, because despite him asking for a trade, we had yet to see his disappointing play. So how many games did it take for Mitchell to start benching him in 4th quarters, and for it to sink in that a trade was definitely necessary? If this was an instant conversation, it'd be interesting to see your answer because I fear your answer will change when I tell you now he was traded a month and a half into the season.

        Trade requests happen all the time, and rarely do they get fulfilled right away, and sometimes not at all. Lesser players have been shopped around for longer and for better results. Your corollary is baseless, since "if they couldn't get much from him in a minimal amount of time, it's unlikely they would have gotten better" is silly. It's exactly the point that they would have likely gotten better had they waited longer. No, I'm not saying they should have waited 2.5 years, but because he still had 2.5 years left, they had time to move him. Impatience was our worst enemy, and inexperience Babcock's.

        When Carter asked for a trade, every GM in the league was hoping to lowball the Raptors. That's how it works when someone announces that publicly. If Babcock was worth his salt, he would have talked to Carter privately and told him that he would satisfy his trade request if he either publicly revoked his trade request or at least played better. Waiting them out could only help, and it's not like the team had been competing for the two years prior. With 24 and 33 wins under their belt, and the season starting off 7-14, was there a reason to trade him for nothing? I ask again, if the offer was so bad, what would have been the harm in waiting? When has "Sell low" become proper procedure?

        "Give me a break, be realistik and bridge the gap between theory vs. practicality."

        The fact that the Vince Carter trade was so ridiculed by league pundits (and no, not 20/20 hindsight years later either) should tell you that it did not bridge the gap between theory and practicality. Trading Carter for another star is theory; not rushing into things is practicality; rushing into things and giving Carter away to a conference rival is plain stupidity, no other way to put it, and I think you've somehow been stuck in rationalizing the Carter trade for the past 5+ years. You somehow can admit Babcock's trade was terrible but it was somehow still the best we could do? I moved on a long time ago, but that doesn't make the trade smell any better.

        Anyway, just an advance warning. I probably won't be around to respond to anything you might come with, but it certainly doesn't mean you're right. =P
        Last edited by Quixotic; Sat Jul 10, 2010, 05:40 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Quixotic wrote: View Post
          Glad you admit it was embellishment. So tell me, is embellishment your usual method of making good arguments? Anything else you embellished?

          I did say that fans that wanted him out did not want a straight dump. There's a big difference between "please trade him" and "please get rid of him at any cost". I was one of the "please trade him" group, but if you're going to get rid of him for nothing, I'd rather just send him home for as long as it takes to re-think his priorities.

          You are mistaken that they were shopping him for a while. From your memory, at what point did the fans or the organization decide we needed to trade him? It couldn't have been before the season began, because despite him asking for a trade, we had yet to see his disappointing play. So how many games did it take for Mitchell to start benching him in 4th quarters, and for it to sink in that a trade was definitely necessary? If this was an instant conversation, it'd be interesting to see your answer because I fear your answer will change when I tell you now he was traded a month and a half into the season.

          Trade requests happen all the time, and rarely do they get fulfilled right away, and sometimes not at all. Lesser players have been shopped around for longer and for better results. Your corollary is baseless, since "if they couldn't get much from him in a minimal amount of time, it's unlikely they would have gotten better" is silly. It's exactly the point that they would have likely gotten better had they waited longer. No, I'm not saying they should have waited 2.5 years, but because he still had 2.5 years left, they had time to move him. Impatience was our worst enemy, and inexperience Babcock's.

          When Carter asked for a trade, every GM in the league was hoping to lowball the Raptors. That's how it works when someone announces that publicly. If Babcock was worth his salt, he would have talked to Carter privately and told him that he would satisfy his trade request if he either publicly revoked his trade request or at least played better. Waiting them out could only help, and it's not like the team had been competing for the two years prior. With 24 and 33 wins under their belt, and the season starting off 7-14, was there a reason to trade him for nothing? I ask again, if the offer was so bad, what would have been the harm in waiting? When has "Sell low" become proper procedure?

          "Give me a break, be realistik and bridge the gap between theory vs. practicality."

          The fact that the Vince Carter trade was so ridiculed by league pundits (and no, not 20/20 hindsight years later either) should tell you that it did not bridge the gap between theory and practicality. Trading Carter for another star is theory; not rushing into things is practicality; rushing into things and giving Carter away to a conference rival is plain stupidity, no other way to put it, and I think you've somehow been stuck in rationalizing the Carter trade for the past 5+ years. You somehow can admit Babcock's trade was terrible but it was somehow still the best we could do? I moved on a long time ago, but that doesn't make the trade smell any better.

          Anyway, just an advance warning. I probably won't be around to respond to anything you might come with, but it certainly doesn't mean you're right. =P
          Par 1: I'm not going to respond to something puerile and pedantic. Shot at me rather than any argument.

          Par 2: That is you in the "no point to get rid of him just for the sake of it camp". Even on these boards there was a lot of chatter about sending Calderon to MIA "just because" if a possible S&T occurred. Can you definitely say the majority swung with "get rid of him just b/c to MIA for the salary dump" vs. "Trade him to MIA for some assets". Reading the boards - I saw more than enough argue for both. Same as with VC - there were enough, in my opinion, that wanted a straight dump.

          Par 3: This is not stating that you are correct....but for the life of me I am unable to re-call if, in the previous year, what had occurred with VC. He demanded a trade in Sep. and was traded in Dec. (I think) - thats 3 months (which is an eternity in sports when searching for a trade). If I remember what had occurred previously - might have been over 3 months that people were tired of his act.

          Par 4: Different cities - different mgmt - different expectations - different players - different roles on the team. This is not ceteris parabis - situations can't be compared. To believe that just because you wait longer things may get better is also faulty logic. I agree, however, that my original thinking may be flawed. I think that in this situation we are both wrong (having chosen different sides of the argument). In the end there is no magic formula, and neither is a guarantee, and neither circumstance can be proven (re: timing).

          Par 5: How does Carter care what it does to the organization (in terms of attaining better assets)? He actions clearly show he didn't care. How will it help him improve his situation by playing better? If I was a child, I would become a disaster so they woudl trade me faster. Carter, as bad as he was and behaved, could have done MUCH worse things. Not that I think that this happened...but whose to say Carter didn't tell babcock "get me out of here before the break or just wait and see how I act and my effect on the rest of my teammates". IE Marbury. Further, re: sell low. Wrong. What you described is actually part of behavioural finance theory and its called loss aversion. You don't hold onto your losers - you get rid of them, take the hit, and start using your capital quicker in better investments. Talk to any knowledgeable finance guy.

          Par 6: Your argument is that the masses are usually right. I'm not sure that I buy that to be truth. The trade was terrible - but it likely was close to the best that Babcock could do, given the circumstances that he was under. I am aware how counter-intuitive that sounds, however as you can see, I am not succinct in expressing my ideas so will try to figure out a better way of expressing it.

          Par 7: No worries. You've brought up some valid points - I don't neccesarily agree with the majority of it though. Have a good night man, and keep'r stiff.

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          • #35
            Link to letter on Raptors site
            -----------------------------------------------------
            I'm going to wait and see how the Raptors season turns out before making my judgement.
            Last edited by RaptorsFan4Life; Sun Jul 11, 2010, 03:35 PM.

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            • #36
              General managers from most teams wouldn't give in to Carter so easily. Want a trade? Play hard, play well or we're not moving you. You want to be a dick to try and force your way out? Suspension. Stay away from the team until you want to behave.

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