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Thread: Michael Grange: Raptors Trying To Trade Jose Calderon For Roy Hibbert

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Rookie sunndog's Avatar
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    This was a fun thread to read. Emotions flying high!

    A couple of things...

    1) When they both came out, GMs were, in fact, higher on Graham and Granger. If my memory serves me correctly, both had similar game/stats and GMs though Graham had greater "upside" (everyone's favorite non-existent stat) and far greater athleticism. In fact the one description of Graham that's always stuck with me was that "Joey could jump out of the gym"

    2) I think people are getting far too down on Hibbert. As was mentioned previously, the guy's only been in the league for 2 years, really only playing one season and even then his minutes were yanked around.

    3) I don't think that BC should deal and here's why. The growth of a team should be organic. There's something a bit karmic about it. If we look back, who are the teams that succeed and which are the teams which generally crumble? The teams that usually fail are the ones that force moves out of desperation rather than those who keep an ear to the ground and wait for the right player or deal to arise. But we all know this. If we trade Jose now, we may be passing on a better deal which might become available in the near future. Right now, given all of the personnel changes that have dropped in the past week and a half, about half the league if not more is in a state of flux. Many teams have a very new complexion and don't generally know how everything is going to fit together. If we force a trade now, giving up one of our best assets in the process, we run the risk of being low-balled or failing to see a player's summer improvements or digressions.

    If I was BC right now I would take stock of the team's assets:

    -A pair of 2011 first round picks
    -15 million dollar TPE
    -Reggie Evans & Marcus Banks
    -Calderon/Jack/Barbosa

    Not a bad mix of expiring contracts, veteran talent and non-player assets right? SO WHAT'S THE RUSH? The Chandler/Diaw trade would have been too good to be true, but another will come. Once the season begin and certain teams fail to have the start they envisioned, GMs will panic and look to trade. It happens every year. Let's wait and see, Billy King was hired as GM of the Nets today, so one more bad GM is back. Who knows maybe we could get Devin Harris for Reggie Evans and Alvin Williams? Wouldn't put it past the man who passed on Chris Paul and Deron Williams to draft Marvin Williams.
    Point is, maybe we should just let these guys play. Let's trot out a line of Jack, DeRozan, Weems, Bargs (at the 4) and a rotation of Johnson/Davis/Alabi/Dorsey/Evans. The young bigs aren't necessarily too small to play at the 5, and if we distribute minutes correctly it's an experiment that could definitely work while providing Bargs the stage to properly display his skills. As the season progresses, the right deal will arise and BC will jump on it. The man has made desperation moves for the past 3 seasons, let's just let the boys play and see what happens.

  2. #62
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sunndog wrote: View Post
    1) When they both came out, GMs were, in fact, higher on Graham and Granger. If my memory serves me correctly, both had similar game/stats and GMs though Graham had greater "upside" (everyone's favorite non-existent stat) and far greater athleticism.
    I think you're wrong. Granger was considered much more talented but was black flagged due to knee concerns. He then dropped in the draft. The Pacers took the chance and got rewarded royally.

  3. #63
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Roy is young, talented, big and has a contract of less than $2M/yr. You don't move that unless it's to fill a need elsewhere. He's not the kind of player you trade for an expiring contract.
    I like Roy, but this is not a good deal for the Raptors and I think Calderon is worth more. He's got a soft touch around the rim, nothing that suggests he's going to be an offensive force. His immobility prevents him from coming out to defend on the PnR (very crucial for the Raptors) and his foot speed is lacking and hurts his help defense. He knows how to be big and use his size so that's good.

    I don't mind taking him on as a project player, but I have to think Calderon's worth more than this. If Hibbert ever becomes a defensive force, it won't be for at least another two years. If you're willing to wait, great.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie sunndog's Avatar
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    Like, I said, I'm going by my memory. I very well could be wrong, but I do remember that a lot of people were very high on Joey.

  5. #65
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    I like Roy, but this is not a good deal for the Raptors and I think Calderon is worth more. He's got a soft touch around the rim, nothing that suggests he's going to be an offensive force. His immobility prevents him from coming out to defend on the PnR (very crucial for the Raptors) and his foot speed is lacking and hurts his help defense. He knows how to be big and use his size so that's good.

    I don't mind taking him on as a project player, but I have to think Calderon's worth more than this. If Hibbert ever becomes a defensive force, it won't be for at least another two years. If you're willing to wait, great.
    The Raptors have to get more to make it work.

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    Quote sunndog wrote: View Post
    Like, I said, I'm going by my memory. I very well could be wrong, but I do remember that a lot of people were very high on Joey.
    You're memory has failed you. Granger was a much better prospect. Graham was considered and athletic player who is raw, but because he was 23 when he came out of college, his growth potential was questioned. Granger was rated higher, but there were questions about his knees, so he dropped below Graham. I can tell you one thing, I liked Granger A LOT better than Graham at the time of the draft. I was afraid Babcock would draft Graham because Graham did well during the combine, and I figured Babcock would be dazzled by that. He apparently was.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The Raptors have to get more to make it work.
    I suggested Calderon to Indiana, DUnleavy and Banks to Sacramento and Dalembert to Toronto. I think Indiana would need more, but it seems like this would work for all parties.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I'd love to see the Raps make a run at Murphy. I like Sam but don't the Kings now have to hold him for a certain amount of time before they can flip him elsewhere?

  9. #69
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    why not kevin durant, russell westbrook, and 2 1st round draft picks for jose ?


    HILARIOUS!!!

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I think you're wrong. Granger was considered much more talented but was black flagged due to knee concerns. He then dropped in the draft. The Pacers took the chance and got rewarded royally.
    thats exactly how i remember it too. Everyone knew he was very talented but the knee concerns scared everybody off

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The Raptors have to get more to make it work.
    but what more can the Pacers offer?
    Its not like they have a lot of nice pieces. They can throw in an expiring contract such as Dunleavy's but thats about it...
    They wont give away George, and Granger is a pipe dream
    Unless we get a 3rd team involved what else can we recieve?
    Besides picks because i dont think Indiana is in a position to give away draft picks

  12. #72
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote INFO wrote: View Post
    thats exactly how i remember it too. Everyone knew he was very talented but the knee concerns scared everybody off
    Yes, and some suggested Joey could be a lotto pick because of his athliticism but he was known as still being raw and funny enough, was also known for "lockdown defense"... Bahahahaha. Both dropped, one because of health concerns and one because of talent concerns. One funny thing I remember about that draft night was sitting there and shaking my head at SAS-hole flipping out about how the Raptors should have taken Joey at 7 and Charlie at 16. At that moment I realized Babcock would never be given a fair chance in the media as they didn't have problems with the two players selected by the Raptors but needed to find a way to stick it to them so SAS makes that ridiculous statement about them getting the picks backwards.

    Quote INFO wrote: View Post
    but what more can the Pacers offer?
    Its not like they have a lot of nice pieces. They can throw in an expiring contract such as Dunleavy's but thats about it...
    They wont give away George, and Granger is a pipe dream
    Unless we get a 3rd team involved what else can we recieve?
    Besides picks because i dont think Indiana is in a position to give away draft picks
    Foster and Rush or Jones would be nice. I know, the Raptors have enough young wings. One more wouldn't though. A rebuilding team needs to be an asset collector and young, talented players are an investment for the future.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jul 14th, 2010 at 05:35 PM.

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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    thats what i was saying about the granger one. looks really bad now but only bad then. as for Barg's hes not a bust but hes not what we needed either & def. not a #1 overall pick. not sure Roy would have been #1 either but if were just picking the best player for us then that would have been Roy since we needed & still need a Star SG. even though i think bargs will be a Dirk 2.0 i still think that given the fact we already had Bosh it Made no sense at all. Rob Babcock Took all kinds of heat for drafting Charlie V at like 10th or somthing cause we already had an AllStar PF in Bosh & Colangalo Doesnt get the same when he drafts another PF #1 overall I dont get it. I like colangalo & i think he is an excelent GM who gives the \raptors alot of crediblity but he has made a few collosol blunders along the way & not taken as much heat for it. although some of the Fire BC as GM dudes do pop up now & then!! but theyre Hockey fans mostly who dont care for the raptors!
    its funny how the hockey fans complain about how bad the raptors is...how the team has no hope and fire the GM nonsense, however they still back the sad sack leafs who has been losers since '67...suddenly 15 years of losing for the RAPS doesn't sound so bad eh hockey fans?

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Granger was rated higher, but there were questions about his knees, so he dropped
    As was the case with Roy. Nobody had Roy as a first overall pick, Dondaddda, so to revise history the way you continue to is a bit ridiculous. What about the 6 other GM's who didn't pick him either? They're all morons I guess? Oh wait, didn't Roy have some pretty serious knee trouble this year????

  15. #75
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    I don't really get fans these days...

    Calderon is a huge impact in the running and gun style then Hibbert......

    Hibbert is toooooo slow and also he is so rigid in offense.

    Fans complain about Bargnani rebound output....look at Hibbert

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    Has nothing to do with this thread but did anyone see the weems interview after the houston summer league game? He was wearing a "I still love my Js" Tee shirt a little shout out to Jordan for nixing that trade.. thought it was pretty funny

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote KakashiPrince wrote: View Post
    I don't really get fans these days...

    Calderon is a huge impact in the running and gun style then Hibbert......

    Hibbert is toooooo slow and also he is so rigid in offense.

    Fans complain about Bargnani rebound output....look at Hibbert
    Calderon is a half court PG. He isn't aggressive.

    Hibbert is about rebounding and defense.

    Bargnani gets a half rebound more then Hibbert but it takes him an extra ten minutes.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jul 14th, 2010 at 06:08 PM.

  18. #78
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    That would be a horrific trade.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Calderon is a half court PG. He isn't aggressive.

    Hibbert is about rebounding and defense.

    Bargnani gets a half rebound more then Hibbert but it takes him an extra ten minutes.
    I know Calderon is a half court pg but he still have more impact in run and gun than Hibbert

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Bargnani gets a half rebound more then Hibbert but it takes him an extra ten minutes.
    And Hibbert is still a poor rebounder ... a rebounding rate of about 12.4% which is 20-25% lower than the average center.

    So how bad must Bargnani be? Jeez ...

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