Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 35

Thread: Why The Raptors Should Keep Calderon Unless

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    5,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Why The Raptors Should Keep Calderon Unless

    HT to aldomilan who raised this point in the comments section of Arsenalist's article "Weems is a RFA in 2011 – What to do?"
    ====================================

    The Raptors should keep Calderon unless they can trade him for a better point guard. The reasons are simple enough

    1. There is a significant benefit to having a solid backup point guard like Calderon

    I think many Raptors fans may have forgotten what it is like to have a lousy backup point guard. It is pretty bad even if you play a slow down half court game.

    Having a good if not above average or better backup point guard is a real benefit especially if your #1 point guard gets injured and even when they pick up two early fouls and/or play a game in foul trouble.

    The Raptors have no one else beside Calderon that can adequately, when you look at his entire game, backup Jack. This is the reason that I have said that if BC is to trade Calderon he should only trade him for a better point guard.

    When Turk was here you could make the argument that the Raptors could use him when Jack was out. However, thankfully, Turk is long gone. So the Raptors do not have anyone who can adequately back up Jack. Brown and Stinson may look decent enough in the summer leagues but I doubt very seriously that either of them can bring the production that Calderon does. I also, as opposed to some other posters here, do not believe that Banks would be an adequate backup point guard for the Raptors.

    For all the talk about Calderon's bad defense and it is bad here is a comparison of three key stats between Jack and Calderon for 09-10. Jack's numbers on the left, Calderon in the middle and Banks career numbers to the right

    PER------------------------16.3---------16.5------12.2
    Offensive Rating--------116-----------119--------99
    Defensive Rating--------115-----------116------107
    Net Rating-----------------+1------------+3-----(minus 8)
    WS/48--------------------.102----------.111------.057

    So Calderon actually had slightly better advanced stats than Jack did and Calderon had a sub-par season in 09-10.

    2. The Amir Johnson Connection

    On top of that Calderon has a lot better on court chemistry with Johnson than Jack does. I think that this is the case because Calderon is a pass first point guard and in my opinion a better, though maybe not as spectacular a passer as Jack is.

    As I pointed out in the comments section of the article mentioned above Johnson ranked #1 in all of the those categories (PER, Net Rating and WS/48) among returning and new Raptors. I don't think anyone would argue that Johnson's offense does not benefit significantly by playing alongside Calderon

    Johnson numbers were
    ————————–
    PER – 16.7 #2 on the Raptors only behind Bosh
    Off Rating – 124
    Def Rating – 110
    Net Rating – Plus 14 #1 on the Raptors (league average is zero)
    WS/48 – .150 #2 on the Raptors only behind Bosh (league average is .100)

    Bosh’s numbers
    ——————–
    PER – 25.0
    Off Rating – 117
    Def Rating – 111
    Net Rating – Plus 6 (league average is zero)
    WS/48 – .182 (league average is .100)

    So in PER, Net offensive – defensive rating and WS/48 Johnson ranks #1 among all returning and new Raptors. (Anyone who cares to can verify this statement and if I am incorrect I would appreciate it if they would point it out. Thanks)

    Johnson seems to benefit on offense by playing alongside a good point guard who thinks assists before points. This was true in Detroit where his offense even though nowhere near as advanced as now, not that it hasn't got a way yet to go, benefited by playing alongside Billups as opposed to Iverson or Stuckey. The latter two who like Jack are more shoot first point guards than Calderon and Billups are.


    http://www.basketball-reference.com/
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri Jul 16th, 2010 at 12:11 PM.
    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

    Memories some so sweet, indeed

    Larger Photo of the avatar



    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    44
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    They already tried to trade Calderon so I think they have no choice but to trade him now.

    Plus I think Jack has better chemistry with Derozan, Weems and for all we know Amir as well.

    MLSE Board are going to turn the Raptors into the Leafs, thus another long, expensive contract gone for something cheap. It's all about profit with this sketchy organization, winning means very little.

    I keep hearing BC saying that we would have gone over the tax if it meant keeping Chris Bosh yet we never heard any rumors or anything about the Raptors trying to bring in other players to play with Bosh. It was just a conceded, well Bosh is gone, we can lose, save money and still make a profit.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rexdale
    Posts
    1,098
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    i doubt many would argue that calderon is a decent back up PG maybe better then the others we have but he gets paid nearly $10mill & that is far too much for a back up PG, even banks $5mill is too much!!!!!

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote rev20002 wrote: View Post
    They already tried to trade Calderon so I think they have no choice but to trade him now.
    FIrstly, just because Calderon was almost traded, doesn't mean he needs to be traded. That's a ridiculous statement. Countless players have been almost traded, then went on to play well long term for the club that almost traded them. Calderon is a mature guy who would not be a problem coming back.

    Quote rev20002 wrote: View Post
    Plus I think Jack has better chemistry with Derozan, Weems and for all we know Amir as well.
    I think you're mistaking off court chemistry with on court chemistry. Calderon had better on court chemistry with all three of the players than Jack did, mostly because he's simply a better passer than Jack. Because Calderon is a pass first PG, he's the better player to play with developing players who need shots.

    Quote rev20002 wrote: View Post
    MLSE Board are going to turn the Raptors into the Leafs, thus another long, expensive contract gone for something cheap. It's all about profit with this sketchy organization, winning means very little.

    I keep hearing BC saying that we would have gone over the tax if it meant keeping Chris Bosh yet we never heard any rumors or anything about the Raptors trying to bring in other players to play with Bosh. It was just a conceded, well Bosh is gone, we can lose, save money and still make a profit.
    Jump to any conclusions lately? Yes, Colangelo stated that the Raptors would go into the tax to keep Bosh, but it became apparent that Bosh simply wasn't returning, so even if the Raptors had been able to somehow grab Chris Paul (which they couldn't have done), Bosh wasn't going to re-sign. The absolute worst thing they could have done was go and and tried to make a big splash and grab some high priced veterans in order to try and lure Bosh only to have him go anyway.

    The smart thing to do is exactly what he did (and what I suggested he do). Anything else might have really hurt the franchise.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    659
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't buy the argument that simply because Calderon was almost traded before, that he now must absolutely be traded. Part of the value of a guy like Calderon is that I can't imagine the failed trade as affecting him to any large degree. He's a team guy. He knows his role, and will do his best in whatever role that is. And he wants to be in Toronto.

    Keep Calderon. Move Jack. Having both Barbosa and Jack is redundant. And i totally agree with this post (as I've stated a number of times. If BC can build a redundant PG tandem, surely I can redundantly comment upon the PG position, it's only fair)...if we do move Calderon, we damn well better get someone back who can run the point like it's supposed to be run - as a facilitator and floor captain, not as a modified shooting guard. The team as is absolutely requires a heads-up distributor. It would be a mess otherwise.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    273
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Calderon released a statement on his website:

    As you all know, in the past few days there have been negotiations for my transfer to another NBA franchise, from here I want to thank all of the Raptors fans who have sent me messages of support to my site and I have wished me luck. For some reason or another, the transfer has not taken place and I am still in Toronto. I just want to say, that as I have done in the history of my career, I will respect the rules and accept decisions that are part of this game, both on and off the court. However, I do not want to sound like I want to leave Toronto. On the contrary, I have spent five years in this city, I consider myself as one of its citizens and fans of the Raptors. I am also the most veteran player on this team, and although Chris is gone, my dream was to lead a new project to take us to the playoffs, that's what I've been training for weeks and getting ready for next season. In any case, whatever happens, I can tell everyone that this goal remains intact and that with the right chemistry in the locker room and with the fans, we can achieve this goal.

    Thanks for your support.

    José Manuel Calderón
    Why people are so eager to get rid of Jose? Is not like he is holding back this team for winning a championship as the Raptors won't be ready anytime soon to contend ... Apparently, that's the sad story of Raptors: who we love to play for Raptors, they won't came to Toronto or they leave if they somehow ended up here and who wants to play for Toronto are not good enough or looking only for payday (ie Turk).

  7. #7
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,377
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Calderon is horrible on defense. This is why I want him out of town. You're not going to win anything with key players being pylons.

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Calderon is horrible on defense. This is why I want him out of town. You're not going to win anything with key players being pylons.
    So I'm guessing you want Bargnani out of town, as well. Right?

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    in a van down by the river
    Posts
    2,799
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    bargs is significantly better at defending his position than calderon is..

    i like calderon... but the clap in your face defense is almost as infuriating as jamario moon jacking up threes

  10. #10
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,377
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So I'm guessing you want Bargnani out of town, as well. Right?
    Bargnani is a lot younger and so there is still hope for him. Also, as heinz57 said, Bargnani is a lot better at defense than Calderon. Still, I would not be opposed to him leaving if the right offer was made.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    1,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Jose is the point guard this team needs right now. He is a pass first guy and will help our young guys develop on the offensive end and his defense, while awful, is also something that could help our bigs develop. If Jose gets blown Davis will have come over and help which is great for his development!

    Most importantly, Jose is a guy who has it in him to be among the best point guards in the league if he`s healthy and I really would like him to stay with this franchise.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    bargs is significantly better at defending his position than calderon is..

    i like calderon... but the clap in your face defense is almost as infuriating as jamario moon jacking up threes
    Yes, Bargnani is better at guarding his position, but overall, he's just as bad a defender, and having your big man being a poor defender, especially help defender, is going to hurt your team far more than having your PG a poor defender. Besides, no one believes that Calderon is going to be the long term solution at PG, even if he stays. If Bargnani stays, he's probably going to be a starter for the long term, and that simply is not good for the team.

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    992
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It's not that I don't like Calderon. He's a pretty good player.

    But that's the problem. He's a pretty good player on a team of pretty good players. And his contract, which would be sensible on a team in need of a pretty good point guard, is duplicitous on a team like the Raptors that hs two pretty good points.

    On a team which has youth and potential, but is wafer thin up front, he's the only tradeable asset we have. And trust me: there's not many other GMs that can justify trading away their star, or even a serviceable starter, for the expiring Evans and Banks of the world. Everyone wants value in return.

    If we ever want to improve our team, or our future, we have to willing to trade pretty good players like Calderon. The only other option is to start trading away our potential -- Bargs, Demar, Sonny -- which less palatable, considering the state of our roster and how far away we are from winning a championship.

    Cheers,
    Bryan Colangelo

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Nash is also a bad defender, but that doesn't mean he isn't a huge asset to a team. It annoys me how overblown the concerns are about calderon's defense. The NBA is full of mediocre defenders who are nonetheless assets to their team. Calderon is now unquestionably the best or second best player on the Raptor's roster, and while i have no objection to trading him for another asset, he's very valuable, even with his contract.

    Oh, and if both Calderon and Jack are still here on opening night, Calderon will be starting. Just an FYI.

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    So the op's argument boils down to he's a good backup point guard, even though he's being paid like a starter... and he helps Amir achieve his offensive potential. The obsession with Amir is a little unsettling.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Keep Calderon. Move Jack. Having both Barbosa and Jack is redundant.
    that's like saying having two centres who can rebound and block shots is redundant...

    you probably think having manu ginobli and tony parker is redundant

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Starter Ambidextrious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    How was jose in 08-09? this can give us a better picture of how he plays with starter minutes. If i remember correctly he had a hamstring and calf injury that kept him out for long periods of the season. the guy is just plain soft. Almost as soft as Bosh.

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    that's like saying having two centres who can rebound and block shots is redundant...

    you probably think having manu ginobli and tony parker is redundant
    Parker and Ginobili play different positions and bring completely different games to the court. They actually compliment one another. The point is that both Barbosa and Jack are combo guards who shoot first and pass second, and are best suited to a bench role. What the team needs is a pass first PG to compliment one of them.

    And if a team had two backup centers who both blocked shots and played defense, that WOULD BE redundant, especially if the team lacked a starting center.

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Parker and Ginobili play different positions and bring completely different games to the court. They actually compliment one another. The point is that both Barbosa and Jack are combo guards who shoot first and pass second, and are best suited to a bench role. What the team needs is a pass first PG to compliment one of them.

    And if a team had two backup centers who both blocked shots and played defense, that WOULD BE redundant, especially if the team lacked a starting center.
    describe how parker and ginobli's games compliment each other b/c none of them are pass first...

    jj and barbosa play different positions...

    if guards who are shoot first pass second are suited for the bench...plz explain russell westbrook, chauncey billups, tyreke evans

    have you ever heard of a guard that can actually PASS OR SHOOT...depending on what the D gives him ??

    hmm if u had 2 centres who could rebound and block (Orlando Magic), umm is that so redundant and ohhh nooo we hav to trade one of them and get a center who cant rebound or block just to avoid being redundant...

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Because Calderon is a pass first PG, he's the better player to play with developing players who need shots.
    yea im sure developing players who are trying hard on D, will love playing with calderon who always gets beat, forcing someone else to have to help and leave their man open... and after getting blown own every game the young players will really have a great attitude and committment to wana play in toronto...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •