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Thread: Why The Raptors Should Keep Calderon Unless

  1. #21
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    describe how parker and ginobli's games compliment each other b/c none of them are pass first...
    Well, if you watch the Spurs, you see that both Parker can play off the ball or run the offense, depending on their roll.

    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    jj and barbosa play different positions...
    They're both 6'2 backup combo guards who are really too small to guard SGs.

    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    if guards who are shoot first pass second are suited for the bench...plz explain russell westbrook, chauncey billups, tyreke evans
    They are better players than Jack and Barbosa. Westbrook and Billups also actually have the ability to run an offense well and make their teammates better. The jury's still out in that regard for Evans.

    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    have you ever heard of a guard that can actually PASS OR SHOOT...depending on what the D gives him ??
    So you are debating the existence of a pass-first point guard and shoot-first PG? Some guards will look to score first, and if it's not there, pass. Other guards will look to set people up first and foremost, but score if needed.

    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    hmm if u had 2 centres who could rebound and block (Orlando Magic), umm is that so redundant and ohhh nooo we hav to trade one of them and get a center who cant rebound or block just to avoid being redundant...
    You need to read more carefully. I said 2 backup centers. Last time I checked, Dwight Howard was a starter. Besides, the center position is a bit different from the PG position. You want at least one person on the team who is going to make others better, and that usually falls to the PG. If you've ever played basketball, you know that having the guy who brings up the ball also being the guy who takes the most shots can often be detrimental to the on court chemistry of the team.

  2. #22
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    yea im sure developing players who are trying hard on D, will love playing with calderon who always gets beat, forcing someone else to have to help and leave their man open... and after getting blown own every game the young players will really have a great attitude and committment to wana play in toronto...
    I guess no one wants to play with Nash, either, do they?

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie Killingjoke's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    bargs is significantly better at defending his position than calderon is..

    i like calderon... but the clap in your face defense is almost as infuriating as jamario moon jacking up threes
    Man, nothing was more annoying than that

  4. #24
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I guess no one wants to play with Nash, either, do they?
    ok obviously no point replying to your posts... yea nash n calderon are on the same level

  5. #25
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So I'm guessing you want Bargnani out of town, as well. Right?
    Whats with you and bargnani? From what I know dirk isn't that special on defense either. He just has a good cast around him which specializes in defense. Raptors need to do the same... having 1 player in your starting line up who isn't so great in defense doesn't mean you suck. Andrea is good, he has a better offensive game than bosh imo (shooting wise).

    As for calderon I understand he is a great pg but I would rather want us getting an elite pg who can run this team for many years to come. So if we trade calderon...its not the end of the world.

  6. #26
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, if you watch the Spurs, you see that both Parker can play off the ball or run the offense, depending on their roll.

    They're both 6'2 backup combo guards who are really too small to guard SGs.

    They are better players than Jack and Barbosa. Westbrook and Billups also actually have the ability to run an offense well and make their teammates better. The jury's still out in that regard for Evans.

    So you are debating the existence of a pass-first point guard and shoot-first PG? Some guards will look to score first, and if it's not there, pass. Other guards will look to set people up first and foremost, but score if needed.

    You need to read more carefully. I said 2 backup centers. Last time I checked, Dwight Howard was a starter. Besides, the center position is a bit different from the PG position. You want at least one person on the team who is going to make others better, and that usually falls to the PG. If you've ever played basketball, you know that having the guy who brings up the ball also being the guy who takes the most shots can often be detrimental to the on court chemistry of the team.
    wow so you're saying barbosa n jack need the ball in their hands all the time ? really ?

    jj n barbosa r actually 6'3

    jj averaged 27 mins a game and took 8.2 shots
    calderon averaged 26 mins and took 8.4 shots

    wow... waht a chugger JJ is

  7. #27
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    ok obviously no point replying to your posts... yea nash n calderon are on the same level
    Calderon and Nash are not on the same level, but both are pass first PGs that are also below average on the defensive end. You made the assertion that players wouldn't want to play with Calderon because he would make them work harder on defense to make up for his deficiencies. I countered with the argument that it would mean that people wouldn't want to play with Nash.


    Quote Raptors wrote: View Post
    Whats with you and bargnani? From what I know dirk isn't that special on defense either. He just has a good cast around him which specializes in defense. Raptors need to do the same... having 1 player in your starting line up who isn't so great in defense doesn't mean you suck. Andrea is good, he has a better offensive game than bosh imo (shooting wise).

    As for calderon I understand he is a great pg but I would rather want us getting an elite pg who can run this team for many years to come. So if we trade calderon...its not the end of the world.
    Dirk isn't special on defense, but he's a much better (and always has been) better than Bargnani, and he's also always been a better rebounder. There's a big difference between an average defender, which Dirk is, and a poor defender, which Bargnani is.

    Besides, considering that Dallas has consistently underperformed in the playoffs, including losing in the first round as a #1 seed and as a #2 seed, I don't know if Dallas is really the team you want to emulate.

    Personally, I would LOVE to get an elite PG for the Raptors, but considering that's probably not going to happen this year, I'd like to stick with Calderon if possible. That's not to say I'd be completely against trading him, if it was good for the team. I was actually in favour of the aborted Charlotte trade.


    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    wow so you're saying barbosa n jack need the ball in their hands all the time ? really ?

    jj n barbosa r actually 6'3

    jj averaged 27 mins a game and took 8.2 shots
    calderon averaged 26 mins and took 8.4 shots

    wow... waht a chugger JJ is
    I never once said that they needed the ball in their hands all the time, and if you're going to enter into a debate with me, please don't start making stuff up.

    Jack and Barbosa are listed at 6'3, but it doesn't mean they are 6'3. Besides, Jack didn't seem to have much luck guarding SGs, did he?

    And I believe the term is chucker. A chugger would be someone who drinks a lot. If you're going to bring attitude to your replies, make sure you get the terminology correct.

  8. #28
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    We're 4 deep at PG, with Barbosa and Jack being essentially the same, just that one's quicker and the other's a better facilitator. I'm against keeping Calderon as a back-up, simply because his salary is a waste of cap space, and the longer we wait 'til we trade him, the less willing partners we have, the less value we can get back. (of course this can all change given a good season)

    Now, as a starter playing majority of the minutes, I'm all for keeping him alongside a strong interior D. But that would mean moving Jack, and I don't know how willing we are to do that. I'm not confident at all with Calderon AND Bargnani playing together.

  9. #29
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    Quote jlongs wrote: View Post
    We're 4 deep at PG, with Barbosa and Jack being essentially the same, just that one's quicker and the other's a better facilitator. I'm against keeping Calderon as a back-up, simply because his salary is a waste of cap space, and the longer we wait 'til we trade him, the less willing partners we have, the less value we can get back. (of course this can all change given a good season)

    Now, as a starter playing majority of the minutes, I'm all for keeping him alongside a strong interior D. But that would mean moving Jack, and I don't know how willing we are to do that. I'm not confident at all with Calderon AND Bargnani playing together.
    I think Calderon should be the starter until they find a suitable replacement, but I don't see him being harder to trade the longer he's kept. I think with better defenders around him, he'll look much better on defense and I have a feeling he'll have a bit of a bounce back year. Besides, it's not as if the Raptors are going to be desperate for cap space. With Banks and Evans coming off the books next summer, and probably Barbosa, if he opts out, which I expect him to do if he has a good year, as well as the trade exception, the Raptors are going to have plenty of financial flexibility.

  10. #30
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post

    I never once said that they needed the ball in their hands all the time, and if you're going to enter into a debate with me, please don't start making stuff up.
    what about your nash comment... did i say no one wants to play with nash ? or did YOU just make that up...

    when comparing nash and calderon on D... nash doesnt have some sort of leg/thigh injury that prevents him from staying in front of his man... calderon does... this is why he gets beat and is TERRIBLE on D... when people say nash's d isnt that great, they mean he doesnt get steals like a cp3 or d will... calderon, after the injury cant keep up with the quicker pg's in the league... when team's need a basket against us,,, guess who they try to exploit ?

  11. #31
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    what about your nash comment... did i say no one wants to play with nash ? or did YOU just make that up...

    when comparing nash and calderon on D... nash doesnt have some sort of leg/thigh injury that prevents him from staying in front of his man... calderon does... this is why he gets beat and is TERRIBLE on D... when people say nash's d isnt that great, they mean he doesnt get steals like a cp3 or d will... calderon, after the injury cant keep up with the quicker pg's in the league... when team's need a basket against us,,, guess who they try to exploit ?
    NOBODY said no one wants to play with Nash. I was bringing up an example of another PG who is below average on defense. And no one says that Nash is a poor defender because he doesn't get steals. Where on earth did you get that from? Steals has very little to d with good defense. And when teams want a basket against Phoenix, guess you they try and exploit? Nash and Calderon have the same weakness. That was my point.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Rookie daveyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Besides, considering that Dallas has consistently underperformed in the playoffs, including losing in the first round as a #1 seed and as a #2 seed, I don't know if Dallas is really the team you want to emulate.
    As opposed to Phoenix never getting past the conference finals like seemingly what you want to emulate with Nash(the Jose comparison)? I'd take Dallas over Phoenix every single day.

  13. #33
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    Yeah, making the Conference Finals three times in six years sucks. Turning a 29 win team instantly into a perennial contender, more than doubling the win total in the first year along the way, is atrocious. I'd rather be the team paying luxury tax year after year, losing in the first round half the time. Either way, I don't see the relevance.

    I think it's less bad to have a below average PG who tries and helps on defence pretty well most of the time than a center who plays average post up defence but pretty poor help defence. The 4 and 5 are the last line of defence. Kareem protected Magic his whole career; Magic's bad defence is an afterthought, whereas Nash's and Calderon's are exposed every game.
    Last edited by TRX; Sat Jul 17th, 2010 at 12:59 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Calderon is horrible on defense. This is why I want him out of town. You're not going to win anything with key players being pylons.
    I totally agree JC's defence is terrible but looking around the league, alot of the top PG in the league are not exactly lock down defenders, in fact, they're just as bad as JC if not worse.

    No doubt JC's defence needs to improve but everyone has to realize two things:

    1) the system the Raps played and used is part of the problem for their poor defence

    2) the CB1 era is now over and a new brand of style, players and system will be in place

    Iam not opposed to trading JC but only if we're getting better players or players that would help the team. Players like JC are very rare in the NBA, unselfish, team first, will do whatever is asked of him for the sake of the team (even if it meant a reduced role). He loves the city (even after his almost trade), T-dot is his only choice. Plus, he's actually a good player. Defence aside, he's a better shooter that Jarrett Jack, he's better at the pick and roll, he's a better passer and is a pass first point guard (which is a good fit on this team that doesn't have any breakdown, create your own shot players).

    For a team like the Raps, who has over the years, lost players - great players to other teams for various reasons, with us fans left feeling slighted and develop an inferiority complex that no one wants to play for the Raps cause its in Canada. Here we have a player in JC who embodies what a true professional is, a true team player and represents not only the team but our country with pride, who truly and genuinely loves the team and wants to play nowhere else but here. Lest we forget a few years back when the Raps were facing the Celtics, while the rest of the Raps cowered at the hands of the big bad Celtics, it was JC front and centre who was face to face, mano e mano with KG, didnt back down one bit....

  15. #35
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    Quote daveyboy wrote: View Post
    As opposed to Phoenix never getting past the conference finals like seemingly what you want to emulate with Nash(the Jose comparison)? I'd take Dallas over Phoenix every single day.
    Well, first of all, I never said I wanted to emulate the Suns. Geez, I wish people would starting jumping to conclusions simply based on an off hand comparison. I've never once said that Calderon was the long term solution at PG, and have in fact said the OPPOSITE. Do you want to count the number of times I've talked about trading for Rubio? Calderon is a good PG to have RIGHT NOW. He's a very good passer who can get the ball to the young players where they want it and help them develop their offense.

    Besides, the Suns have been to the Conference Finals 3 times in the last 6 years, two out of the three times beating teams with better records to get there. Dallas has been to the Conference FInals once in the last 6 years, and were beaten by a team with a worse record every single year.

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