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Thread: Is Freedom of Speech in Canada on Trial in Ontario Case?

  1. #1
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Is Freedom of Speech in Canada on Trial in Ontario Case?

    http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...or-free-speech

    Is anyone following this and think that it is both crazy and scary?

    The guy is being charged because he had an online discussion via Twitter. The accuser claims she felt threatened by the conversation. The investigating officer testified that the guy never did or said anything of threatening nature but that's not what's on trial. If I'm understanding this correctly, what's on trial is the accuser's feelings.

    Online discussions that do not include clear threats should not be considered threatening. I mean if they win then pretty much anyone you disagree with online could conceivably take you to court crying foul; you threatened them based on their interpretation of the events.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Miekenstien's Avatar
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    if the cops say no foul, odds are the justices will too. they have a pretty good understanding of the law.

    i don't think this is a free speech issue though. more like a cyber harassment issue.

    i would counter sue that her misinterpretations are threatening in nature and i felt for my safety when i thought about prison and how i never thought about that until she misinterpreted me. this can go on and on forever like a tv with a tv in it playing the same show etc.
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    c 99/00 alonzo mourning 21.7 pts on .551 shooting 9.5 rbg 3.7 blk

    6th 91/92 jeff hornacek 20.1 ppg .439 from 3 5 rpg 5.1 apg 2 stl

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    i would counter sue that her misinterpretations are threatening in nature and i felt for my safety when i thought about prison and how i never thought about that until she misinterpreted me. this can go on and on forever like a tv with a tv in it playing the same show etc.
    If he wins he should sue for damages at least.

    And I do think it's a freedom of speech deal. Here's a scenario for you, a politician in your riding is doing something opportunistic and against the people's best interests. You launch an aggressive Twitter campaign to generate awareness and hopefully build enough pressure to get this politician to change his mind. Only instead of scoring a political victory you score a date in court because this politician now feels "threatened" by your protest. Let's say he wins even though you didn't actually threaten him and you go to jail because of the previously set precedent. You go to jail because of your political views that you shared over Twitter. Do you feel free to express yourself then?

    This hypothetical scenario is essentially the same thing that's going on in this case, though instead of it being private citizen vs. private citizen, its politician vs. private citizen and the implications are far more serious.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    This hypothetical scenario is essentially the same thing that's going on in this case, though instead of it being private citizen vs. private citizen, its politician vs. private citizen and the implications are far more serious.
    i agree with this but that is an extreme of what is happening here and that politician would pretty much be destroying his career. if this was citizen vs state then it could be seen as a free speech issue but it isn't. people are allowed to bring frivolous suits at each other and let the courts handle them. if he was convicted we could argue free speech but as it stands it is a crazy woman who has no case and is probably going to try and get some money.

    i don't disagree that it could become a free speech issue but i think the thread title is a bit sensationalized
    pg 14/15 steph curry .443 from 3 7.7 apg 2 stl .638 ts%

    sg 84/85 magic johnson .561 shooting 8 rpg 16.2 apg 1.9 stl

    sf 94/95 Detlef Shremp .514 from 3 .641 ts% 6.2 rpg 3.8 apg 1.1 stl

    pf 73/74 bob mcAdoo 30.6 ppg .547 on shooting 15.1 rpg 1.2 stl 3.3 blk 43 min

    c 99/00 alonzo mourning 21.7 pts on .551 shooting 9.5 rbg 3.7 blk

    6th 91/92 jeff hornacek 20.1 ppg .439 from 3 5 rpg 5.1 apg 2 stl

    bn 99/00 michael finley 22.6 ppg .401 from 3 5.3 apg 6.3 rpg 1.3 stl

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    It all comes down to interpretation. I'm looking at the big picture if the judge rules in her favour; what is suddenly possible and impossible, you know?

    No doubt that scenario would be political suicide but self serving people have and will obtain office and so you never can rule anything out.

    I guess what I'm getting at is when a precedent is set to protect one person or group it sometimes has unfortunate consequences to many others. I think you should be free to express yourself as long as you're not threatening or endangering anyone (ie: I may not like or agree with what someone says to me and I do not support what they say but I do support their right to say it). In this case clearly no one was threatened or endangered. Both sides should have the right to publicly disagree.

    And you're right that the courts will probably rule on this correctly. Whichever way the ruling plays out an important precedent will be set in Canada.

    EDIT: Just for you I slightly changed the title. It's no longer a statement and is now a question. It better reflects the content of the thread because there is no definitive answer in here, just a harmless, nonthreatening discussion.

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    (G)Kobe Bryant(6'6", 200lbs), 2005-06, L.A. Lakers: 35.4 PPG, 5.3 REB, 4.5 AST, 1.8 STL, 28.0 PER
    (G)Penny Hardaway(6'7", 197lbs), 1995-96, Orlando Magic: 21.7 PPG, 7.1 AST, 4.3 REB, 2.0 STL, 24.6 PER
    (G)Tony Parker(6'2", 180lbs), 2012-13, San Antonio Spurs: 20.3 PPG, 7.6 AST, 3.0 REB, 0.8 STL, 23.0 PER

    (F)Elgin Baylor(6'5", 225lbs), 1961-62, L.A. Lakers: 38.3 PPG, 18.6 REB, 4.6 AST, 26.5 PER
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    (F)Alex English(6'7", 190lbs), 1982-83, Denver Nuggets: 28.4 PPG, 7.3 REB, 4.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.5 BLK, 24.1 PER

    (C)Patrick Ewing(7'0", 240lbs). 1989-90, N.Y. Knicks: 28.6 PPG, 10.9 REB, 4.0 BLK, 2.2 AST, 25.8 PER
    (C)Dikembe Mutombo(7'2", 245lbs), 1999-00, Atlanta Hawks: 11.5 PPG, 14.1 REB, 3.3 BLK, 19.4 PER


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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I just read over this, and I think you're really freaking out over nothing, Apollo.

    I can't imagine any sane judge/jury ruling in the women's favour. I honestly think this guy has a bigger case to pursue a civil suit in response.

    I hate these kinds of "activists". These two women seem like complete self-important nutcases with no sense of how to properly engage in their feminist activism. The kind of "shaming" they've tried to engage in first with that game developer, then with this dude for his response to them, is one of the worst kinds of online harassment.

    Activism is supposed to be about changing minds, not attacking/silencing/marginalizing them.

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    Come on man, I'm not freaking out. I didn't drop a single exclamation point in the whole thread!

    What I have done is create a thread about something I find interesting unfolding in Ontario. This crazy case is going to set a precedent going forward and so it is of importance and people who like how things currently are on the Internet should care about this case.

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I hate these kinds of "activists". These two women seem like complete self-important nutcases with no sense of how to properly engage in their feminist activism. The kind of "shaming" they've tried to engage in first with that game developer, then with this dude for his response to them, is one of the worst kinds of online harassment.

    Activism is supposed to be about changing minds, not attacking/silencing/marginalizing them.
    I personally think activism should be about enlightening people so that they might come to a new conclusion on their own. Maybe they view this case as any publicity is good publicity?

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    I would be blown away if the judge rules in favour of these women. The fact our tax dollars are even paying for this trial to happen is a farce.
    #FreeCoJo

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Come on man, I'm not freaking out. I didn't drop a single exclamation point in the whole thread!

    What I have done is create a thread about something I find interesting unfolding in Ontario. This crazy case is going to set a precedent going forward and so it is of importance and people who like how things currently are on the Internet should care about this.
    It likely won't set any kind of precedent. There isn't enough "legal" stuff going on. It's two women pissed off at a way a guy communicated with them...without really harassing them in any way.....and trying to get legal action where there's really none to take.

    Making a thread about it kind of is "freaking out" to me because it really doesn't seem like there's any substance to this case at all. :P

    I understand why you care about it in principle...but it should be a non-story. It shouldn't really be getting media attention.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Come on man, I'm not freaking out. I didn't drop a single exclamation point in the whole thread!

    What I have done is create a thread about something I find interesting unfolding in Ontario. This crazy case is going to set a precedent going forward and so it is of importance and people who like how things currently are on the Internet should care about this case.



    I personally think activism should be about enlightening people so that they might come to a new conclusion on their own. Maybe they view this case as any publicity is good publicity?
    Then they need a new media consultant...or publicist...or whoever gives them advice about the public profile side of their endeavors. I can't see this doing anything but creating negative backlash for them. You can't enlighten people if they view you as an unenlightened bully looking for a fight, because that's frankly how their behavior looks. That kind of attitude may get you in the papers, but as an activist, lands you firmly on the wrong end of the spectrum in terms of "voice worth listening to".

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    It's definitely the dog days of summer though, when this story becomes more interesting to talk about than anything in the other threads. Sigh...

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Harrasment is not a "freedom of speech" issue. I applaud Steph Guthrie and other women who are standing up against online harrasment and bullying, which is a huge and growing social problem that needs to be addressed, and my allegence is with them.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It's definitely the dog days of summer though, when this story becomes more interesting to talk about than anything in the other threads. Sigh...

    Just for you.


    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Harrasment is not a "freedom of speech" issue. I applaud Steph Guthrie and other women who are standing up against online harrasment and bullying, which is a huge and growing social problem that needs to be addressed, and my allegence is with them.
    You must know more about this case than me; just heard about it early this morning. Can you explain to us how were they threatened?


    I don't think anyone in here supports harassment or bullying. Those are both clearly threatening in nature.

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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Harrasment is not a "freedom of speech" issue. I applaud Steph Guthrie and other women who are standing up against online harrasment and bullying, which is a huge and growing social problem that needs to be addressed, and my allegence is with them.
    Even though they're actively trying to engage in the kind of bullying and harassment that they claim to be fighting? I'd never defend that game developer's actions in making that game, but trying to shame him and ruin his life through online action is hardly the best way to go about tackling the issue. And then trying to engage in similar actions with the guy who criticizes them, eventually leading to legal action (seemingly without a legal leg to stand on) is pretty bad too.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Miekenstien's Avatar
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    yes please quirk, because i didn't see any of that. if we bring this back to free speech then using their money and convincing others as well to not buy is better. seems they are trying to get the most attention on themselves here and it is costing tax payers for their protesting.

    much better ways to fight for your views in my opinion
    Last edited by Miekenstien; Thu Jul 16th, 2015 at 09:54 AM.
    pg 14/15 steph curry .443 from 3 7.7 apg 2 stl .638 ts%

    sg 84/85 magic johnson .561 shooting 8 rpg 16.2 apg 1.9 stl

    sf 94/95 Detlef Shremp .514 from 3 .641 ts% 6.2 rpg 3.8 apg 1.1 stl

    pf 73/74 bob mcAdoo 30.6 ppg .547 on shooting 15.1 rpg 1.2 stl 3.3 blk 43 min

    c 99/00 alonzo mourning 21.7 pts on .551 shooting 9.5 rbg 3.7 blk

    6th 91/92 jeff hornacek 20.1 ppg .439 from 3 5 rpg 5.1 apg 2 stl

    bn 99/00 michael finley 22.6 ppg .401 from 3 5.3 apg 6.3 rpg 1.3 stl

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    "much better ways to fight for your views in my opinion" -- well mansplained! I bet you have lots of advice for peope who face issues you have never faced, if only they listed to you! I'm releasing an app for that next week, I'll let you know, you can be a power user,

    "Can you explain to us how were they threatened?" -- non-stop harrasement on twitter for 10 months.

    And this is not an issolated case, women who have a public profile are harrassed, threatened and bullied continously by trolls. This has to stop, and people like Steph Guthrie need to be supported in fighting this.

    I wont spend too much time here explaining this, educate yourself, stop making excuses for the sexist and racist trolls and educate yourself on the massive scale of the problem, and support the women who are standing up to bullying.

    edit: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya...b_2567898.html
    Last edited by Quirk; Thu Jul 16th, 2015 at 11:50 AM.

  22. #17
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, are you questioning the ethics or competencies of the investigating officer? This gentleman investigated the case for evidence of threatening conduct and turned up nothing. I see that you're passionate about this particular case but how do you logically explain away this fact? Twitter is a public platform and there is no way to totally block people. It's not the best tool for communicating if that is the desire. Email distribution lists is an example of a better tool.

    By the way, I agree that no one should have to face any bullying and harassment online. A false sense anonominity shouldn't naturally lead someone to being a jerk to others. If everyone's motto was "if you wouldn't say it to their face you shouldn't say it to them online" then I think this wouldn't be a real problem. I also believe good parenting is needed to fix these issues. We have a generation of parents coming in now who "grew up" with the Internet and they are not ignorant to cyberspace bullying or harassment. I think you will see a decline in these acts but it will take time. The Internet has evolved faster than the culture around it, this is the root of the problem in my opinion.

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    (C)Patrick Ewing(7'0", 240lbs). 1989-90, N.Y. Knicks: 28.6 PPG, 10.9 REB, 4.0 BLK, 2.2 AST, 25.8 PER
    (C)Dikembe Mutombo(7'2", 245lbs), 1999-00, Atlanta Hawks: 11.5 PPG, 14.1 REB, 3.3 BLK, 19.4 PER


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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I see that you're passionate about this particular case but how do you logically explain away this fact?
    I'm not passionate about this particualr case, I am concerned with the situatiion that women face online, and you may have only heard of Steph Guthrie yesterday, but know she is a well informed and committed activist on this issue, and I trust her more that accounts from national post hacks like Blatchford.

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    That's fair and I commend you on your critical thinking, it's healthy to question things, but what of the point from the investigating officer I mentioned? Surely his reputation is on the line in every one of these cases he works and he's going to thoroughly investigate all the details, right?

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    LEGACY LEAGUE - DEPTH CHART
    (G)Kobe Bryant(6'6", 200lbs), 2005-06, L.A. Lakers: 35.4 PPG, 5.3 REB, 4.5 AST, 1.8 STL, 28.0 PER
    (G)Penny Hardaway(6'7", 197lbs), 1995-96, Orlando Magic: 21.7 PPG, 7.1 AST, 4.3 REB, 2.0 STL, 24.6 PER
    (G)Tony Parker(6'2", 180lbs), 2012-13, San Antonio Spurs: 20.3 PPG, 7.6 AST, 3.0 REB, 0.8 STL, 23.0 PER

    (F)Elgin Baylor(6'5", 225lbs), 1961-62, L.A. Lakers: 38.3 PPG, 18.6 REB, 4.6 AST, 26.5 PER
    (F)Shawn Marion(6'7", 220lbs), 2005-06, Phoenix Suns: 21.7 PPG, 11.8 REB, 2.0 STL, 1.8 BLK, 23.6 PER
    (F)Alex English(6'7", 190lbs), 1982-83, Denver Nuggets: 28.4 PPG, 7.3 REB, 4.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.5 BLK, 24.1 PER

    (C)Patrick Ewing(7'0", 240lbs). 1989-90, N.Y. Knicks: 28.6 PPG, 10.9 REB, 4.0 BLK, 2.2 AST, 25.8 PER
    (C)Dikembe Mutombo(7'2", 245lbs), 1999-00, Atlanta Hawks: 11.5 PPG, 14.1 REB, 3.3 BLK, 19.4 PER


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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It likely won't set any kind of precedent. There isn't enough "legal" stuff going on. It's two women pissed off at a way a guy communicated with them...without really harassing them in any way.....and trying to get legal action where there's really none to take.

    Making a thread about it kind of is "freaking out" to me because it really doesn't seem like there's any substance to this case at all. :P

    I understand why you care about it in principle...but it should be a non-story. It shouldn't really be getting media attention.
    Except you are wrong about everything you just wrote. It is a criminal trial and not just some pissed off women suing someone. The accused hasn't been able to use the internet or email for almost 3 years, was arrested, and fired from his job. There is legal action being taken by both the police and Crown and the accused faces up to 6 months in jail.

    But as always, the outcome of the trial itself is a red herring in many ways because it doesn't matter whether this guy is convicted or not or whether he is morally culpable because the process is the punishment. What people like these activists want to accomplish is twofold: they want to isolate and destroy (either economically or reputationally or both) people who disagree with them politically; and, two, they want to discourage others who disagree with them from speaking publicly.

    As for "bullying", surely they jest. These are the same people who sic hordes of the like-minded perpetually outraged on anyone who challenges their orthodoxies, publicly shame them and try to get them fired from their jobs. If these 'activists' are too delicate to deal with the pushback from that then perhaps they should be kept safely at home until a suitable man can be found for them to marry and protect them from the mean ol' world.

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