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Thread: DeRozan Key To Bargnani's Offensive Consistency? ...And Production?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default DeRozan Key To Bargnani's Offensive Consistency? ...And Production?

    We all seen how Bargnani played last season with Bosh out. There are many posts on it. Many articles written about it. To summarize, his numbers dropped right across the board and he sort of faded instead having his own coming out party. I know some people are touchy about Bargnani but there's no way around it, Bargnani choked under the spotlight. He showed that he can't handle being the other team's #1 focus and maintain his productivity. Bosh took a lot of heat off the big Italian. Like it or not but this probably hasn't changed over night. He's going to need help. Now no doubt Barbosa can/will help but he's just a role player coming off the bench. They need DeRozan to take a step forward if they hope to have Bargnani scoring with efficiency and consistency. DeRozan is going to be a key piece to the offense. His mix of athleticism and talent are matched by no one else on the team. Early reports I've read and game film I've seen suggest he's worked on his handle and it's paying off. He was recently named to the Vegas Summer League All-Tournament Team. Not a huge honor but the recognition only helps to validate his efforts. If DeRozan's newly earned handle helps him penetrate the paint or get open it means Bargnani is left with better opportunities to exploit in his own game. Now I'm not saying DeRozan must be the #1 option this year but I am saying for Bargnani to maintain consistency he's going to need a 1B to his 1A.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    DeRozan could very well be the #2 option on offense in 10-11, depending on Kleiza who led the Euro-league in scoring in 09-10. In any case "I think" that the Raptors will get enough scoring production all around to make up for the departure of Bosh.
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    I agree Bargnani did not play well without Bosh following the All-Star break. However, in the final five games without Chris Bosh last year Bargnani's point totals were 17 points, 15 points, 18 points, 33 points and 24 points. And in those final two games he absolutely dominated the Pistons and the Knicks.

    Bargnani can be the man. Just watch, he will average more points and rebounds than Bosh this here. Just wait and see.

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    I agree with what your saying on some points. 1st off Bargniani is going to be better all sround next year cause he knows there is nomore Bosh period and I have faith he will be better (as long as the raps get a legit starting 5) also with Derozan Weems Kleiza, barbosa, Jack, picking up for Bosh's 24 plus points and maybe rebound prod. They could probably compete for a 5th seed in 10/11 playoffs I personaly feel they will be better withgout Bosh in the long run cause Bosh was there safty net like James in Cleveland accountability is the key

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan could very well be the #2 option on offense in 10-11, depending on Kleiza who led the Euro-league in scoring in 09-10. In any case "I think" that the Raptors will get enough scoring production all around to make up for the departure of Bosh.
    So who's drawing the double teams or grabbing lots of attention to take the heat off Bargnani? God help us if it's supposed to be Kleiza.

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    Quote J_Dubyah wrote: View Post
    I agree Bargnani did not play well without Bosh following the All-Star break. However, in the final five games without Chris Bosh last year Bargnani's point totals were 17 points, 15 points, 18 points, 33 points and 24 points. And in those final two games he absolutely dominated the Pistons and the Knicks.

    Bargnani can be the man. Just watch, he will average more points and rebounds than Bosh this here. Just wait and see.
    The first two games were against real opponents, one having nothing left to play for and the other with lots on the line. His efficiency wasn't good in either (for example 25% from three point land, aka "his bread and butter"). The final two were against push overs, phoning in miserable seasons and neither were very good on defense last year.

    Quote Breezyreid wrote: View Post
    I agree with what your saying on some points. 1st off Bargniani is going to be better all sround next year cause he knows there is nomore Bosh period and I have faith he will be better (as long as the raps get a legit starting 5) also with Derozan Weems Kleiza, barbosa, Jack, picking up for Bosh's 24 plus points and maybe rebound prod. They could probably compete for a 5th seed in 10/11 playoffs I personaly feel they will be better withgout Bosh in the long run cause Bosh was there safty net like James in Cleveland accountability is the key
    Considering they have no depth at center now, if they find a decent center the guy is going to be a reserve. Bargnani is the starting center this season. Personally, I think Bargnani needs a safety net because he's not a guy who can take over a game on his own. He needs someone to set him up and he needs someone else grabbing lots of attention.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 09:54 AM.

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    It took CB4 quite some time to be an effective #1 option, you have to give Andrea some more time to adjust of being the #1. Be patient, by the X-Mas time we will know it

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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    It took CB4 quite some time to be an effective #1 option, you have to give Andrea some more time to adjust of being the #1. Be patient, by the X-Mas time we will know it
    I get what you're saying but Bosh reached that level by age 21. Bargnani is 25 and hasn't exactly instilled confidence in being able to carry the load consistently. How long do you give him before you accept the idea that he's not a franchise player? 5, 6, 7 years?

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    Bosh was given the franchise tag on a terrible team in 2004 and 2005. Bosh tried hard but got his ass kicked by the other teams in the league. Bosh's numbers looked good because he was teamed with Jalen Rose and he had a high usage %. Bargnani isn't a high usage player and will use his teammates more then Bosh did. Bosh was a iso player, Bargni is a P & R player. The new offense will allow Bargni too move to the high post like Dirk. This will open up the wings for guys like weems and derozan to go back door or drive to the basket. They will then use Kleiza as the post player or the guy who runs the base line or shoots from the corner. This offense will also allow Amir to be the garbage rebounder on offense. Offense won't be a problem for the raptors

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I get what you're saying but Bosh reached that level by age 21. Bargnani is 25 and hasn't exactly instilled confidence in being able to carry the load consistently. How long do you give him before you accept the idea that he's not a franchise player? 5, 6, 7 years?
    Being the the team's leading scorer is not necessarily synonymous with being the team's franchise player. For example in Detroit, Hamilton was the leading scorer for years but he was never considered the team's franchise player. Most people considered Ben Wallace the team's franchise player in 2003-2004 and 04-05, though to me it was split between him and Billups.

    I see Amir becoming the Raptors franchise player, because his game exemplifies what the Raptors will become; i.e. an athletic, skilled, hard working in your face team.

    Most poster here will of course disagree with this, but only time will tell if it happens or not.
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    Quote frankthetank wrote: View Post
    bosh was given the franchise tag on a terrible team in 2004 and 2005. Bosh tried hard but got his ass kicked by the other teams in the league. Bosh's numbers looked good because he was teamed with jalen rose and he had a high usage %. Bargnani isn't a high usage player and will use his teammates more then bosh did. Bosh was a iso player, bargni is a p & r player. The new offense will allow bargni too move to the high post like dirk. This will open up the wings for guys like weems and derozan to go back door or drive to the basket. They will then use kleiza as the post player or the guy who runs the base line or shoots from the corner. this offense will also allow amir to be the garbage rebounder on offense. offense won't be a problem for the raptors
    Somebody needs to do it in their spare time. in between scoring on jump shots, rolls to the basket, run outs, post ups, dishing out assists, deflecting passes, stealing the ball, setting screens, grabbing defensive rebounds, tipping missed shots to other Raptors players, directing the on the court defense, committing hard fouls, altering opponents shots, blocking shots, giving weak side help, double teaming.

    I am sure he can find the time to also be a garbage rebounder on the offensive end. After all the Raptors just agreed to pay him over $30 million so you would think that all these things would be the least he could do for that kind of money.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 10:36 AM.
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    Buddahfan, you seem to really like Amir. Amir has interesting basketball talents. He's long, athletic, fast, jump high, has a quick second jump, never die attitude, and improving offensive game. I think his upside is a more offensive minded dennis rodman. His downside would be a Melvin Ely or Kwame Brown. It certainly looks like Amir should be a double double guy with the raptors. THis all hinges on Amir's ability to stay on the court.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I get what you're saying but Bosh reached that level by age 21. Bargnani is 25 and hasn't exactly instilled confidence in being able to carry the load consistently. How long do you give him before you accept the idea that he's not a franchise player? 5, 6, 7 years?
    That's because Bosh was pushed into the role when VC left. This season is Andrea's first opportunity to be "the man". Yea sure when Bosh was out last season that he could've taken that opportunity, but that's what 7 games in comparison to how many seasons it took Bosh to finally relish the role....

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    Quote Forge wrote: View Post
    That's because Bosh was pushed into the role when VC left. This season is Andrea's first opportunity to be "the man". Yea sure when Bosh was out last season that he could've taken that opportunity, but that's what 7 games in comparison to how many seasons it took Bosh to finally relish the role....
    Thats a good point. I dont hate Bargnani, Im not exactly thrilled with him as our #1 either but Forge brings up a good point. 7 games shouldn't be the definition of bargnani's game as a #1 option. Lets hope he brings it on both ends of the floor this season, plus no harm in putting him in this position anyways its not like the Raptors are going for the finals this year. May as well see this experiment through

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    I think initially bargnani struggled with the double teams he was seeing but then after he got use to in the last two games

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    You can't just expect Bargni to fit the roll of Bosh when he was injured. A new offense will be installed this year and it will look to take advantage of Bargni strengths and he will flourish under a different offense. I think we can all agree Bargni and Amir seem to compliment each other.

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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Buddahfan, you seem to really like Amir. Amir has interesting basketball talents. He's long, athletic, fast, jump high, has a quick second jump, never die attitude, and improving offensive game. I think his upside is a more offensive minded dennis rodman. His downside would be a Melvin Ely or Kwame Brown. It certainly looks like Amir should be a double double guy with the raptors. THis all hinges on Amir's ability to stay on the court.

    You are correct. He has to stay on the court. As much as I think of his ability, energy and character I ain't going to hold my breath that he will ever be able to average 30 + mpg. Though, I would love to see him eventually be able to do it.


    Having said that his career accomplishments have already far surpassed those of Kwame and Melvin combined. Just go look at the advanced metrics like those used by BC in deciding how much to offer Amir.

    No one can be compared to Rodman. especially when you combine his on court accomplishments with his off court life style. They threw away the mold after he was made. The closest player comparable to Rodman on the court was probably Ben Wallace and as great as Wallace was in his prime he was nowhere near as great as Rodman. Even player's like the great Bill Russell couldn't be compared to Rodman on the court because Russell could only play and defend one position whereas Rodman could defend anyone on the court.

    Rodman
    ==============
    Career highlights and awards

    * 5x NBA Champion (1989, 1990, 1996, 1997, 1998)
    * 2x All-Star (1990, 1992)
    * 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990, 1991)
    * 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1992, 1995)
    * 7x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection
    * 7x NBA Rebounding Champion (1992–1998)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rodman

    Unfortunately Rodman's off court lifestyle will keep him out of the Naismith HOF.

    There is absolutely no comparison between Johnson and Rodman other than their athleticism and the fact that they both played for the Detroit Pistons.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 11:07 AM.
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    They have similar bodies and athletic ability. Both are skinny, wiry, athletic bigs. Rodman was 6:8 - 215-225 his whole career. AMir is 6:9-215 but Amir is still only 23 so by the time he hits 27 he will be 225-230 pounds. They both are one foot leapers and both can jump high off each leg. This is what made Rodman the best rebounder ever was because he would tip the ball to himself because he could of each leg just as high. Its a trait I see Amir developing and it will make him a rebounding demon.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I get what you're saying but Bosh reached that level by age 21. Bargnani is 25 and hasn't exactly instilled confidence in being able to carry the load consistently. How long do you give him before you accept the idea that he's not a franchise player? 5, 6, 7 years?
    It doesn't matter how old was Bosh when he started to develop as #1 option, it was about opportunity. Vince Carter was on his way out and the offense was already started to go thru Bosh even before Carter was shipped out. Andrea didn't had that chance as the Bosh was primary weapon for as long as Bosh was a Raptor. Besides the fact that Andrea is not necessary filling the role of #1 option (playing comfortable against double team), Andrea developed a lot his game, I don't understand all the bashing he gets around. And more importantly, he loves to play in Toronto unlike Bosh who bolted away in his prime. Let's stop crying over our ex-girlfriend and stick with the current one

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    Quote Forge wrote: View Post
    That's because Bosh was pushed into the role when VC left. This season is Andrea's first opportunity to be "the man". Yea sure when Bosh was out last season that he could've taken that opportunity, but that's what 7 games in comparison to how many seasons it took Bosh to finally relish the role....
    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    It doesn't matter how old was Bosh when he started to develop as #1 option, it was about opportunity. Vince Carter was on his way out and the offense was already started to go thru Bosh even before Carter was shipped out. Andrea didn't had that chance as the Bosh was primary weapon for as long as Bosh was a Raptor. Besides the fact that Andrea is not necessary filling the role of #1 option (playing comfortable against double team), Andrea developed a lot his game, I don't understand all the bashing he gets around. And more importantly, he loves to play in Toronto unlike Bosh who bolted away in his prime. Let's stop crying over our ex-girlfriend and stick with the current one
    I'm not crying over Bosh being gone but I don't like the fact that Bargnani doesn't have the goods to deliver as the #1 option and many refuse to recognize it. Ten months down the road people will have ran out of energy criticizing a player who they had no business placing lofty expectations on in the first place. Disappointment is all about perception and the majority seems to be setting themselves up for disappointment. Reality is going to stink guys, get ready.

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