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DeRozan Key To Bargnani's Offensive Consistency? ...And Production?

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  • #16
    You can't just expect Bargni to fit the roll of Bosh when he was injured. A new offense will be installed this year and it will look to take advantage of Bargni strengths and he will flourish under a different offense. I think we can all agree Bargni and Amir seem to compliment each other.

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    • #17
      Frankthetank wrote: View Post
      Buddahfan, you seem to really like Amir. Amir has interesting basketball talents. He's long, athletic, fast, jump high, has a quick second jump, never die attitude, and improving offensive game. I think his upside is a more offensive minded dennis rodman. His downside would be a Melvin Ely or Kwame Brown. It certainly looks like Amir should be a double double guy with the raptors. THis all hinges on Amir's ability to stay on the court.

      You are correct. He has to stay on the court. As much as I think of his ability, energy and character I ain't going to hold my breath that he will ever be able to average 30 + mpg. Though, I would love to see him eventually be able to do it.


      Having said that his career accomplishments have already far surpassed those of Kwame and Melvin combined. Just go look at the advanced metrics like those used by BC in deciding how much to offer Amir.

      No one can be compared to Rodman. especially when you combine his on court accomplishments with his off court life style. They threw away the mold after he was made. The closest player comparable to Rodman on the court was probably Ben Wallace and as great as Wallace was in his prime he was nowhere near as great as Rodman. Even player's like the great Bill Russell couldn't be compared to Rodman on the court because Russell could only play and defend one position whereas Rodman could defend anyone on the court.

      Rodman
      ==============
      Career highlights and awards

      * 5x NBA Champion (1989, 1990, 1996, 1997, 1998)
      * 2x All-Star (1990, 1992)
      * 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990, 1991)
      * 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1992, 1995)
      * 7x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection
      * 7x NBA Rebounding Champion (1992–1998)
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rodman

      Unfortunately Rodman's off court lifestyle will keep him out of the Naismith HOF.

      There is absolutely no comparison between Johnson and Rodman other than their athleticism and the fact that they both played for the Detroit Pistons.
      Last edited by Buddahfan; Mon Jul 19, 2010, 11:07 AM.
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      • #18
        They have similar bodies and athletic ability. Both are skinny, wiry, athletic bigs. Rodman was 6:8 - 215-225 his whole career. AMir is 6:9-215 but Amir is still only 23 so by the time he hits 27 he will be 225-230 pounds. They both are one foot leapers and both can jump high off each leg. This is what made Rodman the best rebounder ever was because he would tip the ball to himself because he could of each leg just as high. Its a trait I see Amir developing and it will make him a rebounding demon.

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        • #19
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          I get what you're saying but Bosh reached that level by age 21. Bargnani is 25 and hasn't exactly instilled confidence in being able to carry the load consistently. How long do you give him before you accept the idea that he's not a franchise player? 5, 6, 7 years?
          It doesn't matter how old was Bosh when he started to develop as #1 option, it was about opportunity. Vince Carter was on his way out and the offense was already started to go thru Bosh even before Carter was shipped out. Andrea didn't had that chance as the Bosh was primary weapon for as long as Bosh was a Raptor. Besides the fact that Andrea is not necessary filling the role of #1 option (playing comfortable against double team), Andrea developed a lot his game, I don't understand all the bashing he gets around. And more importantly, he loves to play in Toronto unlike Bosh who bolted away in his prime. Let's stop crying over our ex-girlfriend and stick with the current one

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          • #20
            Forge wrote: View Post
            That's because Bosh was pushed into the role when VC left. This season is Andrea's first opportunity to be "the man". Yea sure when Bosh was out last season that he could've taken that opportunity, but that's what 7 games in comparison to how many seasons it took Bosh to finally relish the role....
            insight_tor wrote: View Post
            It doesn't matter how old was Bosh when he started to develop as #1 option, it was about opportunity. Vince Carter was on his way out and the offense was already started to go thru Bosh even before Carter was shipped out. Andrea didn't had that chance as the Bosh was primary weapon for as long as Bosh was a Raptor. Besides the fact that Andrea is not necessary filling the role of #1 option (playing comfortable against double team), Andrea developed a lot his game, I don't understand all the bashing he gets around. And more importantly, he loves to play in Toronto unlike Bosh who bolted away in his prime. Let's stop crying over our ex-girlfriend and stick with the current one
            I'm not crying over Bosh being gone but I don't like the fact that Bargnani doesn't have the goods to deliver as the #1 option and many refuse to recognize it. Ten months down the road people will have ran out of energy criticizing a player who they had no business placing lofty expectations on in the first place. Disappointment is all about perception and the majority seems to be setting themselves up for disappointment. Reality is going to stink guys, get ready.

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            • #21
              OP: I think that you are totally off-base with your assessment of Bargs and his ability to lead this team. It is TOTALLY unreasonable to look at his production when Bosh was out and say he didn't step up.

              Last year, Bosh was the man. Obviously. And his sets would reflect that. The positioning of players were designed to keep as many defenders away as possible and to create passing lanes out when the doubles came.

              Bargs was expected to spend most of his minutes with Bosh, so what few sets he actually had run for him ASSUMED Bosh would be on the floor. Which also basically guarenteed no doubling from the PF stop, among other things.

              With Bosh temporarily out last year, the Raps couldn't suddenly just start adding new plays, it just doesn't work that way. You just run lesser run plays, more often. And at a disadvantage.

              This year, while the coaching will still be subpar, Bargs will have more plays at his disposal, and they will NOT assume that he is playing with an All-Star. His and his teammates' positioning will change to compensate. And those changes will give him the time/spacing to be more effective.

              If anything, Bargs will have an easier time than Bosh in being the main offensive threat because of his much greater versatility.

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              • #22
                If Bargnani truly was a franchise guy he would have made his game work with Bosh out, no excuses but ok, how about when Bosh was in the lineup? Bargnani couldn't even find consistency while having a guy drawing double teams all night. One night he's got it, one night he doesn't. When the whole team is feeding off your franchise guy, your #1 option, your main man, what happens when he only shows up 50-70% of the time? How low can you go?
                Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19, 2010, 12:41 PM.

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                • #23
                  Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                  DeRozan could very well be the #2 option on offense in 10-11, depending on Kleiza who led the Euro-league in scoring in 09-10. In any case "I think" that the Raptors will get enough scoring production all around to make up for the departure of Bosh.
                  DeRozan might very well be the #1 option on offense, because of his ability to create and draw fouls. I can see him getting the ball a lot in on left block a lot, where he seems to be trying to pattern his game after Kobe, with a turnaround, there.

                  J_Dubyah wrote: View Post
                  I agree Bargnani did not play well without Bosh following the All-Star break. However, in the final five games without Chris Bosh last year Bargnani's point totals were 17 points, 15 points, 18 points, 33 points and 24 points. And in those final two games he absolutely dominated the Pistons and the Knicks.

                  Bargnani can be the man. Just watch, he will average more points and rebounds than Bosh this here. Just wait and see.
                  Apollo already disputed the scoring, but Bargnani very well might average more points than Bosh, but that's because Bosh will be the third option on a stacked team. There's absolutely no way he averages more rebounds. When you say this, you completely ignore all the facts.

                  insight_tor wrote: View Post
                  It took CB4 quite some time to be an effective #1 option, you have to give Andrea some more time to adjust of being the #1. Be patient, by the X-Mas time we will know it
                  Well, Bosh became the #1 option after a little more than 1 season, at 20 years old, and didn't struggle all that much or for very long. Bargnani has been in the league for 4 years and will be 25 years old. I think it's well past the point of making excuses based on age or experience.

                  Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                  Bosh was given the franchise tag on a terrible team in 2004 and 2005. Bosh tried hard but got his ass kicked by the other teams in the league. Bosh's numbers looked good because he was teamed with Jalen Rose and he had a high usage %. Bargnani isn't a high usage player and will use his teammates more then Bosh did. Bosh was a iso player, Bargni is a P & R player. The new offense will allow Bargni too move to the high post like Dirk. This will open up the wings for guys like weems and derozan to go back door or drive to the basket. They will then use Kleiza as the post player or the guy who runs the base line or shoots from the corner. This offense will also allow Amir to be the garbage rebounder on offense. Offense won't be a problem for the raptors
                  The big difference between Bosh and Bargnani on offense is that Bosh has the ability to create his own shot and get to the line. Dirk does, as well. Both have since they came into the league. Bargnani doesn't. Bargnani can't be the #1 option without others creating his shot for him. And he's not a good pick and roll player because he doesn't set good picks. And he doesn't roll, he fades.

                  I think the Raptors could still be a high scoring team, but they'll definitely have trouble scoring when it counts. When the defense tightens, they've got no one who can create, who can draw double teams, who can manufacture points on a consistent basis.

                  Really, though, since 5 of the top 10 scoring teams didn't make the playoffs last season, it doesn't really matter how much they score.
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                  • #24
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Really, though, since 5 of the top 10 scoring teams didn't make the playoffs last season, it doesn't really matter how much they score.
                    Ah, an aspect of Bargnani's game that he can blame no one beside the man in the mirror. It will be interesting to see where he's at on defense this season. Not yet sure what the stock excuse for this one will be if he doesn't show up...

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                    • #25
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I'm not crying over Bosh being gone but I don't like the fact that Bargnani doesn't have the goods to deliver as the #1 option and many refuse to recognize it. Ten months down the road people will have ran out of energy criticizing a player who they had no business placing lofty expectations on in the first place. Disappointment is all about perception and the majority seems to be setting themselves up for disappointment. Reality is going to stink guys, get ready.
                      I don't have high expectations from current squad and I do expect Andrea to struggle because of double team and generally more attention from opposite defense at least till January. However, what I do not understand, what exactly did Raptors achieve with Bosh as #1 option anyway? 3 playoffs wins over the 7 years? Most of the #1 option in a bad team puts big numbers on stats, so I expect Andrea to put some big numbers just as CB4 did, anyway the team will suck unless we see some major changes around.

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                      • #26
                        You guys are obsessed with a franchise guy. Look at he the Bucks they didn't have one guy average above 17 points a game and they did fine. I expect bargni to average around 20 points a game. Basketball was played long before people became obsessed with one on one players. Team will always beat out individual. Bosh never had any substance to his game just like your arguements. No centre in the NBA can guard Bargni one on one. Just because the offense was run around Bosh and Bargni still scored 17 points a game what do you think he will do when the run the offense around him. You guys have no basketball sense. Bosh was an ISO player and bogged the offense down. The raps will be a motion offense team this year which will allow everyone to be involved which fits into a team philosphy.

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                        • #27
                          insight_tor wrote: View Post
                          I don't have high expectations from current squad and I do expect Andrea to struggle because of double team and generally more attention from opposite defense at least till January. However, what I do not understand, what exactly did Raptors achieve with Bosh as #1 option anyway? 3 playoffs wins over the 7 years? Most of the #1 option in a bad team puts big numbers on stats, so I expect Andrea to put some big numbers just as CB4 did, anyway the team will suck unless we see some major changes around.
                          I am not debating Bosh's worth, I am debating Bargnani's ability to handle his new Kingdom. Arguing that mediocrity was normal during Bosh's reign so what's wrong with that during Bargnani's reign is exactly the kind of thinking I hope the Raptors organization is not employing or what's the point of watching? Also, a lot more goes into basketball than Player A did this in such a situation so Player B will as well. Bosh was highly efficient. I'm not doubting Bargnani's numbers could go up... I mean that comes down to how many looks he gets I guess. How efficient will he be though? What value does increased PPG have if efficiency is low? And what is going to happen in or after January? Why is that point in time important?

                          Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                          You guys are obsessed with a franchise guy. Look at he the Bucks they didn't have one guy average above 17 points a game and they did fine. I expect bargni to average around 20 points a game. Basketball was played long before people became obsessed with one on one players. Team will always beat out individual. Bosh never had any substance to his game just like your arguements. No centre in the NBA can guard Bargni one on one. Just because the offense was run around Bosh and Bargni still scored 17 points a game what do you think he will do when the run the offense around him. You guys have no basketball sense. Bosh was an ISO player and bogged the offense down. The raps will be a motion offense team this year which will allow everyone to be involved which fits into a team philosphy.
                          They did have a franchise guy and he dominated the ball. They were somewhat successful(above expectations) with him in charge.

                          Bosh has a lot more substances to his game than Bargnani does. He's better in every aspect besides three point shooing and shot blocking... From what I saw last year there were multiple people who could guard Bargnani. If nobody could guard him then how come he didn't live on the line or post a high efficiency like Chris "No Substance" Bosh did?

                          Chris Bosh only took two more shots per game than Bargnani. Bosh's FG% was 5% higher by the way.

                          My zero basketball sense tells me that the offense worked very well in how it was run last season. My zero basketball sense wonders who steps up this season to fill the void left by "No Substance". Bargnani can't run ISO, so who shakes up the defense now?
                          Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19, 2010, 01:44 PM.

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                          • #28
                            I think what you are going to see next season is Bargs being the dominant scorer for most of the season with DeRozen as the secondary scorer. By the end of the season or maybe the season after, those two will probably reverse roles and DeRozen will take over the primary scoring role. The biggest advantage that the raps get by having Bargs on the floor comes from the spacing he provides by pulling out the other teams bigs while DeRozen, who is a natural slasher, is the perfect player to use the space that Bargs makes to get to the rim and finish. So it seems likely that for the first few months, Bargs will be the number one guy while DeRozen get's used to having the ball more, but by the end of the season you'll start to see Bargs playing a role similar to the one he played with Bosh. It's not that Bargs can't be the primary scorer for a good team, he certainly has all of the tools to do so (especially if he can ever learn to set a better pick to set up his roll/pop), but DeRozen's will to not settle for bad shots, ability to get to the line, and his skill at beating the second defender indicates that he could be among the best scorers in the league today. This is of course assuming DeRozen's handle and jumper have improved significantly over the past few months.
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                            • #29
                              Boshless

                              Like any stat, you can’t make a judgment based on a small sample (~ 10 games), and extrapolate from there. You also have to take into account, that Bosh’s injuries changed the picture for Bargnani. Instead of teams worrying about Chris & Andrea, it was now … Andrea & Amir/Reggie.
                              .
                              As for “fading” and numbers dropping across the board, AB’s last 10 games had him at 19.6 PPG + 6.3 Rebs (with only a slight jump in minutes) - hardly a drop-off. The problem people have, is that they think AB should’ve “stepped up to the plate”, and produced 25 & 10 numbers. Let me know when you find that switch.
                              .
                              I think some fans needed to fuel their hate, as they focused on one player. Fact is, numbers from the “Out-of-Paint” guys (PG,SG,SF) only improved slightly during Bosh’s absence … Up 2.7 PPG & 1.1 Rebs vs Overall year stats. Losing a Star like Bosh, on a team that didn’t make the play-offs, is really an indication of the whole team. Contenders have back-ups. For the Raptors, the back-ups started. That’s what really ailed this team (along with some other issues).
                              .
                              I like the direction the Raptors seem to be taking - more a complete team, and less Super-Star driven. A Detroit model.
                              .

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                              • #30
                                Breezyreid wrote: View Post
                                They could probably compete for a 5th seed in 10/11 playoffs I personaly feel they will be better withgout Bosh in the long run cause Bosh was there safty net like James in Cleveland accountability is the key
                                I think Toronto will be lucky to sneak into the final playoff spot. We still have to see what BC gets back for Calderon, but with this roster I doubt the Raps even make the playoffs. Fifth overall in the East is unlikely. Love the optimism though.

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