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Thread: DeRozan Key To Bargnani's Offensive Consistency? ...And Production?

  1. #21
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    OP: I think that you are totally off-base with your assessment of Bargs and his ability to lead this team. It is TOTALLY unreasonable to look at his production when Bosh was out and say he didn't step up.

    Last year, Bosh was the man. Obviously. And his sets would reflect that. The positioning of players were designed to keep as many defenders away as possible and to create passing lanes out when the doubles came.

    Bargs was expected to spend most of his minutes with Bosh, so what few sets he actually had run for him ASSUMED Bosh would be on the floor. Which also basically guarenteed no doubling from the PF stop, among other things.

    With Bosh temporarily out last year, the Raps couldn't suddenly just start adding new plays, it just doesn't work that way. You just run lesser run plays, more often. And at a disadvantage.

    This year, while the coaching will still be subpar, Bargs will have more plays at his disposal, and they will NOT assume that he is playing with an All-Star. His and his teammates' positioning will change to compensate. And those changes will give him the time/spacing to be more effective.

    If anything, Bargs will have an easier time than Bosh in being the main offensive threat because of his much greater versatility.

  2. #22
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If Bargnani truly was a franchise guy he would have made his game work with Bosh out, no excuses but ok, how about when Bosh was in the lineup? Bargnani couldn't even find consistency while having a guy drawing double teams all night. One night he's got it, one night he doesn't. When the whole team is feeding off your franchise guy, your #1 option, your main man, what happens when he only shows up 50-70% of the time? How low can you go?
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan could very well be the #2 option on offense in 10-11, depending on Kleiza who led the Euro-league in scoring in 09-10. In any case "I think" that the Raptors will get enough scoring production all around to make up for the departure of Bosh.
    DeRozan might very well be the #1 option on offense, because of his ability to create and draw fouls. I can see him getting the ball a lot in on left block a lot, where he seems to be trying to pattern his game after Kobe, with a turnaround, there.

    Quote J_Dubyah wrote: View Post
    I agree Bargnani did not play well without Bosh following the All-Star break. However, in the final five games without Chris Bosh last year Bargnani's point totals were 17 points, 15 points, 18 points, 33 points and 24 points. And in those final two games he absolutely dominated the Pistons and the Knicks.

    Bargnani can be the man. Just watch, he will average more points and rebounds than Bosh this here. Just wait and see.
    Apollo already disputed the scoring, but Bargnani very well might average more points than Bosh, but that's because Bosh will be the third option on a stacked team. There's absolutely no way he averages more rebounds. When you say this, you completely ignore all the facts.

    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    It took CB4 quite some time to be an effective #1 option, you have to give Andrea some more time to adjust of being the #1. Be patient, by the X-Mas time we will know it
    Well, Bosh became the #1 option after a little more than 1 season, at 20 years old, and didn't struggle all that much or for very long. Bargnani has been in the league for 4 years and will be 25 years old. I think it's well past the point of making excuses based on age or experience.

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Bosh was given the franchise tag on a terrible team in 2004 and 2005. Bosh tried hard but got his ass kicked by the other teams in the league. Bosh's numbers looked good because he was teamed with Jalen Rose and he had a high usage %. Bargnani isn't a high usage player and will use his teammates more then Bosh did. Bosh was a iso player, Bargni is a P & R player. The new offense will allow Bargni too move to the high post like Dirk. This will open up the wings for guys like weems and derozan to go back door or drive to the basket. They will then use Kleiza as the post player or the guy who runs the base line or shoots from the corner. This offense will also allow Amir to be the garbage rebounder on offense. Offense won't be a problem for the raptors
    The big difference between Bosh and Bargnani on offense is that Bosh has the ability to create his own shot and get to the line. Dirk does, as well. Both have since they came into the league. Bargnani doesn't. Bargnani can't be the #1 option without others creating his shot for him. And he's not a good pick and roll player because he doesn't set good picks. And he doesn't roll, he fades.

    I think the Raptors could still be a high scoring team, but they'll definitely have trouble scoring when it counts. When the defense tightens, they've got no one who can create, who can draw double teams, who can manufacture points on a consistent basis.

    Really, though, since 5 of the top 10 scoring teams didn't make the playoffs last season, it doesn't really matter how much they score.

  4. #24
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Really, though, since 5 of the top 10 scoring teams didn't make the playoffs last season, it doesn't really matter how much they score.
    Ah, an aspect of Bargnani's game that he can blame no one beside the man in the mirror. It will be interesting to see where he's at on defense this season. Not yet sure what the stock excuse for this one will be if he doesn't show up...

  5. #25
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I'm not crying over Bosh being gone but I don't like the fact that Bargnani doesn't have the goods to deliver as the #1 option and many refuse to recognize it. Ten months down the road people will have ran out of energy criticizing a player who they had no business placing lofty expectations on in the first place. Disappointment is all about perception and the majority seems to be setting themselves up for disappointment. Reality is going to stink guys, get ready.
    I don't have high expectations from current squad and I do expect Andrea to struggle because of double team and generally more attention from opposite defense at least till January. However, what I do not understand, what exactly did Raptors achieve with Bosh as #1 option anyway? 3 playoffs wins over the 7 years? Most of the #1 option in a bad team puts big numbers on stats, so I expect Andrea to put some big numbers just as CB4 did, anyway the team will suck unless we see some major changes around.

  6. #26
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    You guys are obsessed with a franchise guy. Look at he the Bucks they didn't have one guy average above 17 points a game and they did fine. I expect bargni to average around 20 points a game. Basketball was played long before people became obsessed with one on one players. Team will always beat out individual. Bosh never had any substance to his game just like your arguements. No centre in the NBA can guard Bargni one on one. Just because the offense was run around Bosh and Bargni still scored 17 points a game what do you think he will do when the run the offense around him. You guys have no basketball sense. Bosh was an ISO player and bogged the offense down. The raps will be a motion offense team this year which will allow everyone to be involved which fits into a team philosphy.

  7. #27
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote insight_tor wrote: View Post
    I don't have high expectations from current squad and I do expect Andrea to struggle because of double team and generally more attention from opposite defense at least till January. However, what I do not understand, what exactly did Raptors achieve with Bosh as #1 option anyway? 3 playoffs wins over the 7 years? Most of the #1 option in a bad team puts big numbers on stats, so I expect Andrea to put some big numbers just as CB4 did, anyway the team will suck unless we see some major changes around.
    I am not debating Bosh's worth, I am debating Bargnani's ability to handle his new Kingdom. Arguing that mediocrity was normal during Bosh's reign so what's wrong with that during Bargnani's reign is exactly the kind of thinking I hope the Raptors organization is not employing or what's the point of watching? Also, a lot more goes into basketball than Player A did this in such a situation so Player B will as well. Bosh was highly efficient. I'm not doubting Bargnani's numbers could go up... I mean that comes down to how many looks he gets I guess. How efficient will he be though? What value does increased PPG have if efficiency is low? And what is going to happen in or after January? Why is that point in time important?

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    You guys are obsessed with a franchise guy. Look at he the Bucks they didn't have one guy average above 17 points a game and they did fine. I expect bargni to average around 20 points a game. Basketball was played long before people became obsessed with one on one players. Team will always beat out individual. Bosh never had any substance to his game just like your arguements. No centre in the NBA can guard Bargni one on one. Just because the offense was run around Bosh and Bargni still scored 17 points a game what do you think he will do when the run the offense around him. You guys have no basketball sense. Bosh was an ISO player and bogged the offense down. The raps will be a motion offense team this year which will allow everyone to be involved which fits into a team philosphy.
    They did have a franchise guy and he dominated the ball. They were somewhat successful(above expectations) with him in charge.

    Bosh has a lot more substances to his game than Bargnani does. He's better in every aspect besides three point shooing and shot blocking... From what I saw last year there were multiple people who could guard Bargnani. If nobody could guard him then how come he didn't live on the line or post a high efficiency like Chris "No Substance" Bosh did?

    Chris Bosh only took two more shots per game than Bargnani. Bosh's FG% was 5% higher by the way.

    My zero basketball sense tells me that the offense worked very well in how it was run last season. My zero basketball sense wonders who steps up this season to fill the void left by "No Substance". Bargnani can't run ISO, so who shakes up the defense now?
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #28
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    I think what you are going to see next season is Bargs being the dominant scorer for most of the season with DeRozen as the secondary scorer. By the end of the season or maybe the season after, those two will probably reverse roles and DeRozen will take over the primary scoring role. The biggest advantage that the raps get by having Bargs on the floor comes from the spacing he provides by pulling out the other teams bigs while DeRozen, who is a natural slasher, is the perfect player to use the space that Bargs makes to get to the rim and finish. So it seems likely that for the first few months, Bargs will be the number one guy while DeRozen get's used to having the ball more, but by the end of the season you'll start to see Bargs playing a role similar to the one he played with Bosh. It's not that Bargs can't be the primary scorer for a good team, he certainly has all of the tools to do so (especially if he can ever learn to set a better pick to set up his roll/pop), but DeRozen's will to not settle for bad shots, ability to get to the line, and his skill at beating the second defender indicates that he could be among the best scorers in the league today. This is of course assuming DeRozen's handle and jumper have improved significantly over the past few months.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Boshless

    Like any stat, you can’t make a judgment based on a small sample (~ 10 games), and extrapolate from there. You also have to take into account, that Bosh’s injuries changed the picture for Bargnani. Instead of teams worrying about Chris & Andrea, it was now … Andrea & Amir/Reggie.
    .
    As for “fading” and numbers dropping across the board, AB’s last 10 games had him at 19.6 PPG + 6.3 Rebs (with only a slight jump in minutes) - hardly a drop-off. The problem people have, is that they think AB should’ve “stepped up to the plate”, and produced 25 & 10 numbers. Let me know when you find that switch.
    .
    I think some fans needed to fuel their hate, as they focused on one player. Fact is, numbers from the “Out-of-Paint” guys (PG,SG,SF) only improved slightly during Bosh’s absence … Up 2.7 PPG & 1.1 Rebs vs Overall year stats. Losing a Star like Bosh, on a team that didn’t make the play-offs, is really an indication of the whole team. Contenders have back-ups. For the Raptors, the back-ups started. That’s what really ailed this team (along with some other issues).
    .
    I like the direction the Raptors seem to be taking - more a complete team, and less Super-Star driven. A Detroit model.
    .

  10. #30
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    Quote Breezyreid wrote: View Post
    They could probably compete for a 5th seed in 10/11 playoffs I personaly feel they will be better withgout Bosh in the long run cause Bosh was there safty net like James in Cleveland accountability is the key
    I think Toronto will be lucky to sneak into the final playoff spot. We still have to see what BC gets back for Calderon, but with this roster I doubt the Raps even make the playoffs. Fifth overall in the East is unlikely. Love the optimism though.

  11. #31
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    You guys are obsessed with a franchise guy. Look at he the Bucks they didn't have one guy average above 17 points a game and they did fine. I expect bargni to average around 20 points a game. Basketball was played long before people became obsessed with one on one players. Team will always beat out individual. Bosh never had any substance to his game just like your arguements. No centre in the NBA can guard Bargni one on one. Just because the offense was run around Bosh and Bargni still scored 17 points a game what do you think he will do when the run the offense around him. You guys have no basketball sense. Bosh was an ISO player and bogged the offense down. The raps will be a motion offense team this year which will allow everyone to be involved which fits into a team philosphy.
    Considering a team almost always needs a franchise guy to be a legitimate contender, I would say fans simply being realistic.

    As for the Buck's, their two best players are currently better than any player on the Raptors, and they still a mediocre team that got into the playoffs because of weak competition.

    You talk about being obsessed with one on one, claiming basketball is a team sport, but then in the next sentence, you state that no center can guard Bargnani one on one. Either it matters or it doesn't. And I won't even get into the fact that Bargnani can't create his own shot, so your statement is not really true.

    And I think there are quite a number of people with basketball sense around here.

  12. #32
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    Default Bosh - Dirk - Bargnani

    The big difference between Bosh and Bargnani on offense is that Bosh has the ability to create his own shot and get to the line. Dirk does, as well. .... Tim W.
    .
    Bosh & Dirk are making 20 million over the next few seasons - even though CB's 1st year is lighter due to Miami's situation. Bargnani will average 10 mil over the next 5 years (8 this coming season). Not really fair to compare production, and then forget salary.
    When you buy that Buick, do you get pissed that it doesn't drive like a Beamer?
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  13. #33
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    Apollo the only reason Bosh shot a high % is because the Centre couldn't cheat because he had to stay on Bargni who was hanging out at the 3 point line. The fact that the opposing centre couldn't cheat off Bargni didn't help Bosh's game????? Let wake up Apollo. Name one centre that can guard Andrea???

  14. #34
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    Tim W. name me those centres??

  15. #35
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    Did you ever think that maybe Bosh's game benefited from being next to Andrea? The fact is we will see how Bosh does in Miami without a big to stretch the floor. Also Andrea is a much better man to man defender then Bosh. Counter to what Apollo said that Bosh is better then Bargni at everything except blocks and 3 point shooting. He is a much better man to man defender

  16. #36
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    This whole argument is spiraling out of control. Neither Bosh or Bargs can be franchise players on a winning team. They both have way too many holes in thier games and while both may of blossomed offensively when paired together, as a front court tandem they represent ball stopping black holes that double as defensive train wrecks.

    Realistically they should have never been paired together for so long, they share way too many strengths and weaknesses. Last season Bosh played great with a bad supporting cast. Since one of his major weaknesses is that he doesn't make his teammates better or share the ball, the team suffered in spite of his big numbers.

    Bargs production this year should follow in a similar vein to Bosh's last year except that his supporting cast will be significantly better and he will be matched with a PF who does all the little big things that Bargs doesn't.

    Bosh was the best player on the team last year, but he was often complimented by four other bad defensive players. This year Bargs will be the best player on the floor, but he will be surrounded by fast, athletic player's that hustle in transition and hopefully keep thier man in front of them.

  17. #37
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    .
    Bosh & Dirk are making 20 million over the next few seasons - even though CB's 1st year is lighter due to Miami's situation. Bargnani will average 10 mil over the next 5 years (8 this coming season). Not really fair to compare production, and then forget salary.
    When you buy that Buick, do you get pissed that it doesn't drive like a Beamer?
    .
    What they make is moot. We're talking about what they do on the court. The argument was that the offense won't suffer because the offense can run through Bargnani playing the high post, like Dirk does. The problem is that Dirk creates double teams and give players open looks, because he can create his own shot. Bargnani won't.

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Tim W. name me those centres??
    The problem with Bargnani is that he has one move, and that's a pump fake. If you don't fall for it, or try and block his shot, anyone can guard him. He's not going to eat you off the dribble. If his man simply stays on the ground, Bargnani can't drive by him. The majority of times Bargnani drove to the basket they were because his man ran at him, recovering from double teaming.

    And guys like Noah, Bogut, Horford, Nene, Javale McGee, the Lopez's, etc, all guys with above average quickness have no problem guarding Bargnani. He has an advantage of lumbering centers, but there aren't a whole lot of those, anymore, especially starting.

  18. #38
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Like any stat, you can’t make a judgment based on a small sample (~ 10 games), and extrapolate from there. You also have to take into account, that Bosh’s injuries changed the picture for Bargnani. Instead of teams worrying about Chris & Andrea, it was now … Andrea & Amir/Reggie.
    .
    As for “fading” and numbers dropping across the board, AB’s last 10 games had him at 19.6 PPG + 6.3 Rebs (with only a slight jump in minutes) - hardly a drop-off. The problem people have, is that they think AB should’ve “stepped up to the plate”, and produced 25 & 10 numbers. Let me know when you find that switch.
    .
    I think some fans needed to fuel their hate, as they focused on one player. Fact is, numbers from the “Out-of-Paint” guys (PG,SG,SF) only improved slightly during Bosh’s absence … Up 2.7 PPG & 1.1 Rebs vs Overall year stats. Losing a Star like Bosh, on a team that didn’t make the play-offs, is really an indication of the whole team. Contenders have back-ups. For the Raptors, the back-ups started. That’s what really ailed this team (along with some other issues).
    .
    I like the direction the Raptors seem to be taking - more a complete team, and less Super-Star driven. A Detroit model.
    .
    How on earth can you make judgment on him improving if you exclude any data with him in the scenario? There needs to be a two way road. We do know Bargnani's efficiency dropped when Bosh was not active last season. In particular, in games Bosh missed where the Raptors were facing an opponent at or above .500 Bargnani's FG% dipped to 43.75%, his 3pt% dropped to 32.26%, he got to the line half as much, rebounded 1.5/game less and his assist average was also below his season average in this scenario. I know, I know, small piece of data but better than absolutely nothing.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    .
    Bosh & Dirk are making 20 million over the next few seasons - even though CB's 1st year is lighter due to Miami's situation. Bargnani will average 10 mil over the next 5 years (8 this coming season). Not really fair to compare production, and then forget salary.
    When you buy that Buick, do you get pissed that it doesn't drive like a Beamer?
    .
    You want to compare by salary? Then go back and select seasons that aligns with Bargani's current salary and then compare Bosh and Bargnani. Bosh still blows the guy out of the water. We haven't even touched metric stats yet. When I buy a Buick, besides sighing, I want it to drive like a Buick and I don't want anyone to storm in and tell me it's a Corvette and call me stupid for suggesting otherwise.

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Apollo the only reason Bosh shot a high % is because the Centre couldn't cheat because he had to stay on Bargni who was hanging out at the 3 point line. The fact that the opposing centre couldn't cheat off Bargni didn't help Bosh's game????? Let wake up Apollo. Name one centre that can guard Andrea???
    Yeah? And what's the excuse for before Bargnani got here? Matt Bonner?

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Did you ever think that maybe Bosh's game benefited from being next to Andrea?
    Of course it did, his rebounding totals went up as soon as Bargnani starting get good playing time. Everything else is a wash.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 03:04 PM.

  19. #39
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    It's pretty funny what you posted.

    You feign some kind of legit argument/correlation between DeRozan and Bargnani's production...but then you really just revert back to the doom and gloom, sky is falling, "bargs isn't good enough" routine.

    This is the Bargs era son, just wait and see. Chris Bosh doesn't care about you anymore, you will have to realize it someday.

  20. #40
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    What? The whole point of the thread from the get go was that Bargnani isn't good enough to do be the #1 without a lot of help. I haven't changed anything. What Chris Bosh cares about has nothing to do with this conversation. Stat's and game film aren't altered by biases but opinion is. People are quick to crown Bargnani king of their hearts and downplay Bosh's impact because of what happened in the past year off the court, this has nothing to do with Bargnani's actual game. Reality is skewed and it's going to sting when people back down from their clouds.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 03:23 PM. Reason: let me make it more clear...

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