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Thread: DeRozan Key To Bargnani's Offensive Consistency? ...And Production?

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What? The whole point of the thread from the get go was that Bargnani isn't good enough to do be the #1 without a lot of help. I haven't changed anything. What Chris Bosh cares about has nothing to do with this conversation. Stat's and game film aren't altered by biases but opinion is. People are quick to crown Bargnani king of their hearts and downplay Bosh's impact because of what happened in the past year off the court, this has nothing to do with Bargnani's actual game. Reality is skewed and it's going to sting when people back down from their clouds.
    Ok so the point of your post is that Bargnani, in ur opinion, is not good enough to be the #1 guy? Hasn't this post been made 1000 other times?

    I posted something the other week about Bargs "being" good enough to be #1, and James Ballswin closed my thread and told me I should not make comments on Bargs' future until after pre season?

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Ok so the point of your post is that Bargnani, in ur opinion, is not good enough to be the #1 guy? Hasn't this post been made 1000 other times?

    I posted something the other week about Bargs "being" good enough to be #1, and James Ballswin closed my thread and told me I should not make comments on Bargs' future until after pre season?
    Did you just make a comment about Bargnani?

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    The value that Bargnani has is that although he's not great at any one thing, he's pretty good at everything, offensively speaking. He can shoot, he can drive, he can post up, he's got a bit of speed and he's got size. Accordingly, unlike Bosh who struggled against players who posed match-up problems for him - hence bogging down the offense - he should always be able to find a shot against whatever big is guarding him. He will need to recognize this and adjust accordingly. One thing he's great at is taking the opposing center away from the paint and I imagine Derozan, Weems and Barbosa will thrive with more open lanes in which to operate, with Johnson and Davis coming in after the fact to clean up.

    His value, then, is that he - as a primary offensive weapon - should keep the offense flowing and more importantly keep the defense guessing, provided he is complemented well with shooters and slashers and that he becomes good at passing out of his moves. This is something he is presently not that good at and above all else if he is going to be a number one guy, or a legitimate primary option at all, he has to become a better passer. It would open up the floor to an incredible degree for our wings to thrive.

    Secondly, he needs a point guard or someone else to be capable enough to run what would be a fairly complex offense. Someone like Calderon, which is why if Jose is traded, it is vital to get someone back who is capable of managing the floor and distributing the ball properly.

    I saw him grab a board against Duncan in the post once, draw him back out to the 3 point line where he got Duncan to bite on a pump fake, then blew by him for a dunk. He absolutely schooled Duncan and it was awesome. He definitely has potential...he just needs to keep his head in the game and think properly like he did then. If the Raps ran such an offense where Bargs became a good passer, and everyone played to their potential and as a team, they would be impossible to consistently defend. I also think Bargs will school Bosh if and when they match up against each other.

  4. #44
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Ok so the point of your post is that Bargnani, in ur opinion, is not good enough to be the #1 guy? Hasn't this post been made 1000 other times?

    I posted something the other week about Bargs "being" good enough to be #1, and James Ballswin closed my thread and told me I should not make comments on Bargs' future until after pre season?
    This thread is about Bargnani regressing on the court without Bosh present and how he needs someone to lean on. Ideally that person will be DeMar DeRozan. This thread is about the relationship they're going to need for Bargnani to thrive. Unfortunately I've had to spend too much time debating Bargnani's game instead of how the two could function.

    My question to all the Bargnani die hard supporters who are not willing to consider if he fails is will you still support him if what I suggest happens or will you throw him under the bus?

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    Quote tim w. wrote: View Post
    did you just make a comment about bargnani?
    lmao!

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    This thread is about Bargnani regressing on the court without Bosh present and how he needs someone to lean on. Ideally that person will be DeMar DeRozan. This thread is about the relationship they're going to need for Bargnani to thrive. Unfortunately I've had to spend too much time debating Bargnani's game instead of how the two could function.

    My question to all the Bargnani die hard supporters who are not willing to consider if he fails is will you still support him if what I suggest happens or will you throw him under the bus?
    Bargs and Dero will play great together. I think based on their skillsets they could lean on one another alot. I think Kleiza's physicality will help out as well setting some hard screens/picks.

    EDIT- also, does that mean it is ok to make posts about a player if you think they will regress...but if you think they will progress, you have to wait until pre season to comment?
    Last edited by Multipaul; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 04:13 PM.

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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    The value that Bargnani has is that although he's not great at any one thing, he's pretty good at everything, offensively speaking. He can shoot, he can drive, he can post up, he's got a bit of speed and he's got size. Accordingly, unlike Bosh who struggled against players who posed match-up problems for him - hence bogging down the offense - he should always be able to find a shot against whatever big is guarding him.
    In the NBA, the guys that thrive are often the guys who are good at one particular thing. That was brought up in an article I read recently about Patrick Patterson, and his play in the summer league. He's done a little bit of everything, but hasn't really shown to be really good at anything. And that's a concern.

    Bargnani is a pretty good shooter, and has quickness, but doesn't really use it because he can't take people off the dribble. Your somment that he should always be able to find his shot against anyone doesn't ring true, because he simply can't create his own shot. And the offense DOES get bogged down when the ball goes to Bargnani. he certainly wasn't any better at keeping the ball moving than Bosh, but Bosh would actually e able to create for himself, whereas Bargnani got most of his offense off other players.

    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    I saw him grab a board against Duncan in the post once, draw him back out to the 3 point line where he got Duncan to bite on a pump fake, then blew by him for a dunk. He absolutely schooled Duncan and it was awesome. He definitely has potential...he just needs to keep his head in the game and think properly like he did then. If the Raps ran such an offense where Bargs became a good passer, and everyone played to their potential and as a team, they would be impossible to consistently defend. I also think Bargs will school Bosh if and when they match up against each other.
    I once played against Mike Bibby, stole the ball from him and scored. I think the less I say what happened next the better. For me.

    Bargnani has always been great at showing FLASHES of ability, but in four years, he's never really put anything together on a consistent basis. The flashes he shows are why he has so many fans. They get mesmerized by these flashes, and start ignoring the big picture. That's why guys like Derrick Coleman and Charlie Villanueva were/are always overpaid, because GMs always feel that given the right situation, all those abilities can be harnessed. It usually doesn't happen.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So who's drawing the double teams or grabbing lots of attention to take the heat off Bargnani? God help us if it's supposed to be Kleiza.
    Great Point Apollo

    Bosh basher choose to ignore the Bosh effect on double teaming or the attention that he was getting on the offensive end of the floor from defenders which created extra space for other players to operate.

    I am curious to see how this will effect the game of AB , DD , Weems and Amir when know suddenly they have the full attention of the defenders and much less space to operate.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is a pretty good shooter, and has quickness, but doesn't really use it because he can't take people off the dribble. Your [c]omment that he should always be able to find his shot against anyone doesn't ring true, because he simply can't create his own shot. And the offense DOES get bogged down when the ball goes to Bargnani.
    My point about Bargs being able to find his own shot was based on him identifying who he's playing against and attacking with the advantage he has, because I think he will always have one, no matter how big or small it is. If he's matched against a big, heavy C, he should take him out to the line and play more open court. If he's against an undersized C, like Noah, he should post him up. Against someone like Nene it will be more tricky, but Bargs needs to develop his b-ball IQ to the point where he recognizes at a given point in the offense where he may have an advantage and exploit it. Against a versatile big it will be different shots at different times. It's about him becoming smarter and knowing his capabilities.

    I also know he's not a good passer. That's why i think it's so important that he becomes one, as it's the best way the Raps offense with the players it has now can excel. It goes in hand with developing b-ball IQ. Basically it's his maturity and understanding of the game and himself as a player that is what's necessary for him to become a legit primary offensive option. Sometimes as a scorer, other times as a distraction. If he recognizes those situations, and develops the skills to capitalize, the Raps will be in good shape.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Great Point Apollo

    Bosh basher choose to ignore the Bosh effect on double teaming or the attention that he was getting on the offensive end of the floor from defenders which created extra space for other players to operate.

    I am curious to see how this will effect the game of AB , DD , Weems and Amir when know suddenly they have the full attention of the defenders and much less space to operate.
    Well said. Amir and Ed are currently limited in what they can do in the paint. A big man now is more likely to get away with crowding Andrea outside because there won't be as big a risk of being punished by a lurking offensive machine waiting near/in the paint.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Added quote

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    The fact is None of those players can guard Bargni. Noah can't guard Andrea, outside no Centre can guard bargni he can go left or right on the drive if he doesn't shoot the ball. Did you notice that no big guy can guard Andrea off the dribble. The only big guy who can really guard Bargni would be a guy like Al Horford but Horford can't guard Bargni in the post. The fact is that Apollo/tim have already made their mind up with Bargni. So Apollo why have a forum where no evidence in the world would change your oppinion. The fact is that with 3 additional shots a game Bargni is a 20 point scorer. SO I don't know why your so negative, did Andrea do something to your family member. Look at how much Boguts stats went up last year. He just turned 25 last year and he became a stud shot blocker and rebounder. Andrea turns 25 this year watch out

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    "Bosh basher choose to ignore the Bosh effect on double teaming or the attention that he was getting on the offensive end of the floor from defenders which created extra space for other players to operate.

    I am curious to see how this will effect the game of AB , DD , Weems and Amir when know suddenly they have the full attention of the defenders and much less space to operate. "
    What about the fact that Bosh was a defensive liability against power forwards. He couldn't guard a single power forward which made the rest of the team have to compensate for his defensive shortcomings. Amir is actually as good of offensive rebounder as Bosh. So I don't see how Bosh not being around will effect put backs.

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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    "Bosh basher choose to ignore the Bosh effect on double teaming or the attention that he was getting on the offensive end of the floor from defenders which created extra space for other players to operate.

    I am curious to see how this will effect the game of AB , DD , Weems and Amir when know suddenly they have the full attention of the defenders and much less space to operate. "
    What about the fact that Bosh was a defensive liability against power forwards. He couldn't guard a single power forward which made the rest of the team have to compensate for his defensive shortcomings. Amir is actually as good of offensive rebounder as Bosh. So I don't see how Bosh not being around will effect put backs.
    Bosh scored a lot of points but held the ball many times way to long before deciding what to do with it. He was all about his own numbers. It seems pretty clear that he had made up his mind to leave before Apr 15th and his play after the all-star game when he wasn't hurt reflected it.

    Bosh is a guy who can get you points and grab defensive rebounds.

    However, the Raptors won only 3 playoff games in the 7 years he was on the team. The argument that he didn't have any support is bunk.

    Compare what he had with what Kevin Garnett had all those years in Minn when he was leading the T-Wolves into the playoffs in the tough Western Conference.

    Bosh may be a great guy but in my opinion from what I have seen he is an endothermic teammate. Not someone who will lead a team anywhere positive despite his very good numbers.
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Noah can't guard Andrea
    It's not perfect but it's more then you've presented:
    Andrea Bargnani Vs. The Bulls In The 2009/2010 Season
    *Season average versus all opponents

    FG%: 39.0% (*47.0%)
    3pt%: 25.0% (*37.2%)
    AST: .33/game (*1.2/game)

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    So Apollo why have a forum where no evidence in the world would change your oppinion.
    Good question. Let's wait until I get to see your evidence?

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    The fact is that with 3 additional shots a game Bargni is a 20 point scorer.
    What about his efficiency? You're basing this on his efficiency posted while playing with a perennial all-star. What if his efficiency goes down? Where does 20PPG get the team if it's not an efficient 20PPG?

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    SO I don't know why your so negative, did Andrea do something to your family member.
    I have nothing personal against Bargnani. I actually like him. I'm being realistic though. If that sounds negative to you just wait until 3/4 of the way through next season. Come in here and see how people are handling Bargnani's failure to live up to unrealistic expectations. You'll think he killed everybody's puppy based on the response.

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    He just turned 25 last year and he became a stud shot blocker and rebounder. Andrea turns 25 this year watch out
    Bogut's rebounding didn't improve but you're right, his shot blocking did. No one is criticizing Bargnani's ability to block shots. This thread is about his ability to be the #1 option, take the tough shots and create on his own. By the way, Bogut is a career 53.1% from the field while Bargnani is a career 44% from the field. Just throwing that out there...
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 05:12 PM.

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    Bosh was double teamed a lot but only averaged 2.1 assists per 36 minutes during his seven years in Toronto. Compare to Zack Randolph who no one has ever considered a great passer, more like a black hole on offense. Randolph's career average is 1.9 assists per 36 minutes.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...randoza01.html

    Bosh also did not shoot very many threes so the idea that his being doubled teamed opened the court is in my mind not very accurate.

    However, when you play someone next to Bargnani who can roll to the basket and has great hands to finish this player will take at least one or sometimes two defenders with him thus opening up the top of the key areas for easy jump shots by someone else or for an easy layup on the roll to the basket by the the guy who rolls to the basket. This in my opinion is a lot more effective offensively than having Bosh hold the ball for 10-15 seconds before figuring out what to do with it.
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Bosh was double teamed a lot but only averaged 2.1 assists per 36 minutes during his seven years in Toronto. Compare to Zack Randolph who no one has ever considered a great passer, more like a black hole on offense. Randolph's career average is 1.9 assists per 36 minutes.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...randoza01.html

    Bosh also did not shoot very many threes so the idea that his being doubled teamed opened the court is in my mind not very accurate.

    However, when you play someone next to Bargnani who can roll to the basket and has great hands to finish this player will take at least one or sometimes two defenders with him thus opening up the top of the key areas for easy jump shots by someone else or for an easy layup on the roll to the basket by the the guy who rolls to the basket. This in my opinion is a lot more effective offensively than having Bosh hold the ball for 10-15 seconds before figuring out what to do with it.
    Bosh never turned the ball over more than he assisted on baskets and I not sure I agree with you on a double team only being effective if it's a guy on the perimeter. Do you doubt the immense benefit the Lakers got through Shaq getting doubled? No, it helped guys out on the perimeter. It opened up the court out there. A guy like Bargnani would have benefited from Shaq.

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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    What about the fact that Bosh was a defensive liability against power forwards. He couldn't guard a single power forward which made the rest of the team have to compensate for his defensive shortcomings. Amir is actually as good of offensive rebounder as Bosh. So I don't see how Bosh not being around will effect put backs.
    I don't know about that Frank !! Bosh was not the best defender but saying:

    " He couldn't guard a single power forward"

    is kind of stretching it , Don't you think ?

    You also Said:
    " which made the rest of the team have to compensate for his defensive shortcomings."

    Again, I think you are being quite unfair. I could be wrong but from what I remember, most of our defensive problems were from having PGs who were getting beat off the dribble and also a center who was not good in HELP DEFENSE ( AB) . Both problems still are still there.

    "Amir is actually as good of offensive rebounder as Bosh. So I don't see how Bosh not being around will effect put backs"

    I don't know why we are suddenly talking about offensive boards but lets talk about defense of Amir.

    Last year, Amir was a better defensive player than Bosh, I give you and Buddah fan that one. But again, lets see how he is going to be this year.

    Now, he has to play more minutes and also have to much more produce more on the offense.

    Will he have the energy to do the hustle work and go after the loose balls like last year?
    Will he be able to spend as much energy that he did on the defensive end while playing a bigger role on the offence ?

    I know some people here think that Bosh was a 20-10 guy whose numbers can be replaced easily But I think there was more to his game than we are giving him credit for.

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    In actuality Bosh rarely got double teamed. Most teams played him straight up, let him get his points and forced the rest of the team to make shots. I always found it fairly perplexing because the few teams who did double team (Spurs, Rockets) almost always succeeded as Bosh would take too long to recognize it or have no idea how to pass out of it.

    Often teams would double him in the 4th quarter and have great success, but because Bosh played with so many shooters over his 7 years he was for the most part played straight up and for the last 4 years also had an empty paint.

    Personally I think Bosh will miss Bargs more than Bargs will miss Bosh. Efficiency is important, but so is ball movement. Bargs is a natural passer even if his assist totals don't reflect that. I'll trade his lower efficiency for more fluidity on offense and less stagnation during the half court.

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    mo-Sale

    While I do not agree with you on the double team regarding Bosh, I wish that your assessment is correct.

    Now, Lets turn our attentions to ow post game and scoring this year ?
    Who is going to be our scorer down low ?

    I think after almost 5 years of AB, we know that he has all the moves and ... but is unwilling to do the banging for position down low. So let's be realistic and put him out of the equation.

    This leaves us with Amir Johnson and Ed Davis. In my opinion, both have a very unpolished post moves.

    So where are we going to get our post scoring from or are we just going to become a more jump shooting team ?
    Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:08 PM.

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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Personally I think Bosh will miss Bargs more than Bargs will miss Bosh. Efficiency is important, but so is ball movement. Bargs is a natural passer even if his assist totals don't reflect that. I'll trade his lower efficiency for more fluidity on offense and less stagnation during the half court.
    A great point.

    Bargs' ability to pass and to open the court were huge factors in allowing Bosh to be so efficient on offense. I've read a couple of people saying that on offense Bargs and Bosh were a bad combination because of their overlapping skills. That is simply not true. Bargs was the perfect compliment to Bosh because he pulled a big out of the paint, which let Bosh play closer to the basket. I more traditional center would have stunted Bosh's production by clogging up the inside and forcing more jumpers from Bosh. If you don't believe me, just check out their point totals, they were the highest scoring front court in the league.
    Defensively, they were an awful combo, but I don't think anyone can say they didn't mesh on offense.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, at the moment Bargs' greatest asset is his ability to spread the floor. That is the factor that allowed us to have one of the best offences in the league, not Bosh's efficiency in the high post.
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