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Thread: Stojakovic For Our TPE

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Default Stojakovic For Our TPE

    I can't see why the following - in skeleton - isn't a fantastic deal.

    Stojakovic & Collison for Jack, Weems & draft picks (if necessary to sweeten the deal. see below for why our draft pick next year become less necessary).

    We get our PG for the future, replace our TPE with an expiring contract and a temporary back up SF (hint: next year Thaddeus Young will be a F/A).

    NO gets huge salary relief, an excellent back up PG for Paul, and a great SG to backup Marcus Thornton. Weems can also play the SF to help fill the gap left by Peja.

    Raps:_________________Raps next year w/Young.

    Collison/Calderon______Collison/Calderon
    Derozan/Barbosa_______Derozan/Barbosa
    Kleiza/Peja____________Young/Kleiza
    Johnson/Davis_________Davis/Johnson
    Bargnani/Alabi_________Bargnani/Alabi

    If we got Young and kept the roster the same, we'd have an extremely athletic, hot shooting, driving & slashing team, with nearly everyone playing above average defense, and plenty of cap room. We'd have them all - with the exception of Barbosa - locked up for the long term, with Calderon & Barbosa being the oldest players on the team at 29 & 28, respectively. Among the rest, Kleiza would be the oldest at just 25. In other words, the Raps would be awesome and just dripping with potential.


    Hornets:

    31m in TPE. They gain almost limitless potential to adjust their roster during the coming season, as teams make their own adjustments when their season inevitably doesn't pan out the way they planned. They also clear a ton of salary, while getting two very talented players to solidify their rotation, as well as draft picks to augment if they aren't willing to do a straight up trade.

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    I'm a little confused as to your trade. If they trade Stojakovic and Collison, for Jack, Weems, & Draft Picks, how exactly do the Hornets get a $31M TPE? Also, given the cap was set at a value higher than originally expected, the Hornets are not that far away from getting under the tax (a little over $1M). They can shed it pretty easily without having to give up assets.

    As for the Raptors, why would we give up Weems and Jack for Collison? He's a back up PG that put up great numbers for half a season when CP3 went down with injury. He hasn't proven he can lead a team for a full season, and when he did lead the team it's not like they were winning a high % of games.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    The 31m TPE would be in total for them (they have around 15m already). It wasn't an issue of them being under the cap specifically, just being in general in cost cutting mode. It would be akin to moving a player who they already want to move (Peja) for immediate financial flexibility and two excellent bench players, one of which has great potential.

    Why would I want Collison? Because he was a rookie who put up more points and steals than either of our veteran point guards, who dished out more assists than Jack, and who grabbed more boards than Jose. Also he's an excellent three point shooter, and is extremely quick. Again, the numbers he put up last year were as a rookie. At the moment, Collison plays as well as either Jose or Jack, yet he is much younger, more athletic and much cheaper then either of them. He would be fantastic to group with the Raps' young team as they develop over the next handful of years.

    The cap space it would give us going into next year would allow us to target pretty much any free agent out there. I mentioned Thaddeus Young as one we should go full out to try and get. There's also Marc Gasol. With the cap space we'd have by getting Peja (including our other expirings) we could realistically get both of them.

    Also, New Orleans weren't winning a high percentage of their games because New Orleans is simply not that good of a team without Chris Paul.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If they could get Collison in the deal then sure. Without him it's a big steaming pile of doody.

    I don't like the idea of Weems AND picks. One or the other please. I mean they get a big TPE and a very nice backup PG already.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    just dripping with potential.
    they'll be dripping with something else because that sounds like a waste.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Why would I want Collison? Because he was a rookie who put up more points and steals than either of our veteran point guards, who dished out more assists than Jack, and who grabbed more boards than Jose. Also he's an excellent three point shooter, and is extremely quick. Again, the numbers he put up last year were as a rookie. At the moment, Collison plays as well as either Jose or Jack, yet he is much younger, more athletic and much cheaper then either of them. He would be fantastic to group with the Raps' young team as they develop over the next handful of years.

    The cap space it would give us going into next year would allow us to target pretty much any free agent out there. I mentioned Thaddeus Young as one we should go full out to try and get. There's also Marc Gasol. With the cap space we'd have by getting Peja (including our other expirings) we could realistically get both of them.
    Before I get into the stats game that you've laid out, I'm still failing to see how trading for Peja helps us in cap space. We already have it, whether we trade for Peja or not. We may have a little bit more of it because you took out Jack's contract, but that's about it.

    As far as stats,

    • Darren Collison's Defense Rating was the same as the career averages of both Jose and Jarret Jack (112).
    • Darren Collison's Offensive Rating (105) was MUCH worse than Jose's (119) and Jack's (116).
    • Darren Collison had a higher usage percentage (23.1) than Jose (17.9) and still didn't assist on as many shots as Jose did (32.9% vs 33.9%) where Jose had his worst assist percentage since his rookie season (Jose generally assists on 40% of his teammate's field goals).


    But I hate stats. You can always pick and choose whatever supports your theory best. The real argument here is that Collison is younger, cheaper, and more athletic than either Jose or Jack. My argument against that is, he didn't use that athleticism to be a good defender. In addition, teams generally figure you out after a season (or less if you're Brandon Jennings), so his perceived abilities may very well be inflated. Yes, he's cheap, but you're giving up a legitimate back-up point guard with real value, and another cheap contract with real value (Weems). AND you would include picks if they don't bite? Comeon.

    I'd love for Collison to join the team, but not at that price.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Before I get into the stats game that you've laid out, I'm still failing to see how trading for Peja helps us in cap space. We already have it, whether we trade for Peja or not. We may have a little bit more of it because you took out Jack's contract, but that's about it.
    Traded player exceptions don't help in acquiring free agents, only in trades. The value of switching the TPE for an expiring contract is that an expiring contract (or, rather, it's value) can be used on any player, whether under contract or not. It would free us up to grab some quality players in next years free agency, rather than be forced to use it somehow, someway this year lest we lose Bosh for basically Miami's first round pick.

    Also, I'm not sold on Jack's ability as a starting point guard. I don't think he can carry a team deep into the playoffs, and keeping the Jose/Jack tandem I'm not sure will work chemistry wise. I'd rather move Jack for a better PG prospect, hence wanting Collison. Weems would be a sore loss, that's for sure, but between Derozan and Barbosa, unless we move one of our PG's for no PG at all (where Barbosa would then be the backup 1), there's just not that many SG minutes to go around. In a straight up trade between Collison and Weems, given where the Raps are and who they have now, I'd take Collison.

    As for your argument about teams "figuring out" a player after their first year, I don't think it makes much sense, as it basically pans out to arguing that first year numbers will be equal to career numbers, not giving any room for players getting better after their first year. Yes, his numbers may be inflated, but they just as equally may be depressed. You never know - that's the gamble.

    Between Rondo, Paul, Jennings, Wall, Rose and Parker, it's becoming a fast, penetrating point guard's league and we don't have one. Collison paired with Calderon - as a pure, more classic point guard - would be a perfect tandem. See: Ford/Calderon when Ford wasn't being all mopey and me-first.

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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Traded player exceptions don't help in acquiring free agents, only in trades. The value of switching the TPE for an expiring contract is that an expiring contract (or, rather, it's value) can be used on any player, whether under contract or not. It would free us up to grab some quality players in next years free agency, rather than be forced to use it somehow, someway this year lest we lose Bosh for basically Miami's first round pick.
    I'm still confused. Unless you mean using the Peja contract during the season to acquire another player, then a TPE and an expiring contract acquired via a TPE have the exact same value at the end of the season. In fact, even using the Peja contract during the season works very similar to the TPE. Teams aren't trading for Peja's services, they're trading for cap relief. A TPE and an expiring contract do that, except a TPE does it sooner.

    Let me break it down.

    In the 2011/12, the Raptors will have about $47M in cap roll. This assumes that Amir will be making $6M, Kleiza $5M, and Barbosa picks up his player option. If the CBA doesn't change (it will, but let's just assume it won't) , then we'll have about $10M in cap space, and we'll no longer have Sonny Weems, Belinelli, Evans, or Banks under contract. We'll also have 2 first round picks for the season, along with possible but currently unknown contracts for Alabi and Dorsey. So let's say then, that after cap holds for the picks and Alabi/Dorsey, we have $6M in cap room.

    If we use the TPE + Jack + Weems to acquire Peja + Collison, we gain Jack's Contract - Collison's Contract in cap room, or $5.22M - $1.46M = $3.76M.

    So for Jarret Jack, Sonny Weems, some of our TPE, and perhaps Miami's draft pick, you got Collison and $3.76M in cap room.

    Comparatively:

    • Al Jefferson was acquired for a TPE, Kosta Koufos (who?), and 2 protected first round picks.
    • Hakim Warrick was acquired for a TPE and a 2nd round pick.
    • Josh Childress was acquired for a TPE and a 2nd round pick.

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    I calculate it differently. I'm running the numbers as follows, and based on the salaries from the espn trade machine; the Raps with Peja and Collison; minus Jack and Weems; then subtracting the expiring contracts of Peja, Banks, Evans, Bellinelli and Jones.

    The total I arrive at for salary next season is 34.1m, +/- a few thousand.

    For arguments sake, we'll add 6 million in extra salary for Davis, Alabi, Dorsey, and raises for Amir, Derozan and Collison. So, that would put us at 40m.

    Cap level for this year being 58m, (and using that as the starting point for next year, for arguments sake), that leaves us with 18m in cap space going into 2011 Free Agency.


    Edit: Wait...I forgot about Kleiza...shoot...I guess that brings us down to, what...13.5m? Actually, I doubt that's enough for Gasol and Young...unless we went after Gasol, outbid Memphis (if we can), then used the MLE for Young (if that would be enough).
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 06:05 PM.

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    I don't think your total of $34.1M is including Amir's contract, either.

    EDIT: Here's how I got my numbers for the 2011-2012 salary:

    Jose: $9.8M
    Bargs: $9M
    Barbosa: $7.6M (assumes Player option)
    Jack: $5.2M
    DeRozan: $2.6M (assumes Team Option)
    Amir: $6M (assumes realGM post, details of contract not yet known)
    Linas Kleiza: $4.6M (assumes 4 years, $18.8M, where the first year was front loaded to $5M)
    Ed Davis: $2M
    Alabi + Dorsey: Estimated to $1.7M

    Total: $48.5M

    Does not include: Cap holds for 2 first round picks in 2011 draft (one is likely lottery, the other is likely very late), Belinelli's Qualifying Offer of $3.3M, Sonny Weems

    So if we don't trade for Peja + Collison, and we assume a $57M salary cap, then we have $8.5M in cap space, minus the cap holds of our 2 first round picks. We still have to potentially sign Weems and Belinelli (if we want to).

    So now let's trade away Jack and Weems (Weems is already an expiring) for Peja and Collison.

    $4.86M (Jack) + $0.85M (Weems) = $6.07M
    $15.33M (Peja) + $1.36M = $16.69M

    So we basically need to use $10M of our Chris Bosh TPE here. By the 2011 offseason, the only difference to the above calculation is we will not have Jarret Jack, but we will have Darren Collison. So $5.22M - $1.45M (Team Option for Collison) = $3.77M less than the previous total.

    So after your trade, we now have a total pay roll of $44.78M, we don't have Weems' bird rights, and I assume we still have at least one of our picks as a cap hold. Basically, there is no point in trading our TPE for an expiring contract, unless that expiring contract is resigning with us or looking to help us win. The only thing you achieved in this trade is shedding Jarret Jack's contract and getting back Collison. If that's all you wanted to do, you could have offered Jack for Collison + Songalia. This helps shed $1.3M off of New Orleans 2010 salary, while helping us shed the same amount as above for our 2011 salary ($3.77M), AND we don't use a TPE.
    Last edited by Marz; Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 09:03 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Marz

    So after your trade, we now have a total pay roll of $44.78M, we don't have Weems' bird rights, and I assume we still have at least one of our picks as a cap hold. Basically, there is no point in trading our TPE for an expiring contract, unless that expiring contract is resigning with us or looking to help us win. The only thing you achieved in this trade is shedding Jarret Jack's contract and getting back Collison. If that's all you wanted to do, you could have offered Jack for Collison + Songalia. This helps shed $1.3M off of New Orleans 2010 salary, while helping us shed the same amount as above for our 2011 salary ($3.77M), AND we don't use a TPE.
    Right, well, I didn't have next year's salary numbers (as I was simply going off the trade machine numbers). So I'm just gonna use your numbers there, and cede this to you. In effect, I think the whole thing is kinda moot now anyways, as baby Paul is now whining about wanting to join another super team (seriously, this league is going down the toilet). If they move Paul, which seems likely now, I doubt they'd also move Collison.

    As an aside, what is wrong with NBA players these days? I guess it's not enough for them to be paid absurd salaries that most of us simply would be idiotic to dream about making. Now they want that money and a championship served to them on a platter, because why, they think they deserve it? The ego and selfishness on these guys is simply astounding. It's one thing to be a headcase, like, say, I dunno Dennis Rodman. But that guy was a competitor. He fought. These guys today? They don't want to play basketball. They want a luxury jet to take them to fantasy land while nymphs in fur coats jerk them off and feed them peeled grapes. In their exhaust they leave the wake of what was once a professional basketball league.

    Free Agency 2010 has been a total disaster for the NBA. Bring on the lockout.

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    Raptors Republic Starter drizz's Avatar
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    Might be worth it just for the punjabi factor.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Basically, there is no point in trading our TPE for an expiring contract, unless that expiring contract is resigning with us or looking to help us win. The only thing you achieved in this trade is shedding Jarret Jack's contract and getting back Collison. If that's all you wanted to do, you could have offered Jack for Collison + Songalia. This helps shed $1.3M off of New Orleans 2010 salary, while helping us shed the same amount as above for our 2011 salary ($3.77M), AND we don't use a TPE.
    Jack for Collison + Songalia would definitely get a chuckle from NO. If they trade Collison they are going to want more than a more expensive back up PG and $4million in salary savings.

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