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Thread: Aron Phillips Of DimeMag.com Sounds Prejudice Against Non-American Players

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    Default Aron Phillips Of DimeMag.com Sounds Prejudice Against Non-American Players

    If you’ve ever seen a Euroleague basketball game, then you know the roster is littered with foreign talent and a few American players. By the looks of the NBA’s lone foreign franchise, the Raptors continue to go that route. After Toronto acquired David Andersen yesterday from Houston for cash and a future second-round draft pick, that brings their total of foreign-born players to six.

    While I used to be a huge fan of Bryan Colangelo, his recent moves don’t seem to be making much sense. While the European style of game is exciting to watch, just look at the Raptors’ playoff success as an indication of how well it translates to the NBA. Andersen joins Leandro Barbosa, Andrea Bargnani, Marco Belinelli, Jose Calderon and Linas Kleiza. And who knows, they might decide to bring Rasho Nesterovic back.
    DimeMag.com

    Ok, I have a problem with this. In North America the same prejudiced that once existed in hockey still exists in in basketball, that players foreign to the center of the sport(for Basketball it's America) are inferior because they're not from the center. It's a crap idea based on stereotypes and misconceptions. The place a birth does not decide if you can rebound or defend or be successful. Colangelo values a certain type of player and certain system that hasn't seemed to translate to success, that's the problem. It has nothing to do with where the players are from. I don't see him criticizing Jerry Buss for having Pau Gasol on his roster or R.C. Buford for drafting Parker, Ginobili and countless others.

    Oh and for the record Barbosa is Brazilian. Aron needs to invest in a map and find out where Brazil is. Not to mention it's obvious that he knows nothing about Kleiza. If he even searched Wikipedia he would have learned that Kleiza played high school and college ball in America. Ugh...

    The prejudices the Raptors have to deal with are because of the American public voices who don't spend the time researching and thinking things through. Instead they phone it in with their prejudices. People(current and future players, agents, coaches and management) then pick that up and read it, take it as fact and so the cycle continues.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Jul 29th, 2010 at 11:52 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    The guy is an ignoramus about the Raptors

    In 10-11 and in the near future the core of the Raptors will be

    The Young Gunz
    Jarrett Jack
    Ed Davis

    All of whom are American's and none of whom have ever played on a team in the European League; i.e. FIBA.

    Bargnani will probably be gone before the end of 2011-12, as soon as BC can get the right deal to move him.
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    I don't think anything he said is wrong. His syntax is a bit off but what he said has some truth to it. This is the core qoute:

    If you’ve ever seen a Euroleague basketball game,
    then you know the roster is littered with foreign
    talent and a few American players...

    According to that American-centric logic the Raptors are a foreign NBA team with foreign talent with a few American players. Yes Barbosa is Brazilian, he's also not American. Phillips believes that even though Euroleague is exciting its not as good as American basketball and that Colangelo is not facing up to that reality.

    Personally, I disagree with him. Euroleague players or a Euroleague like structured team could work in the NBA, however, we should be looking for more Garbojosa's (hard-nosed high b-ball IQ types) and not Bargnanis (finesse players). I think Kleiza is a good step in that direction. Barbosa, Bargnani, Bellineli, Calderon are all finesse players. 4 players who probably will play fairly significant roles. Yes finesse players are important to a team but there's not enough balance in how Colangelo is going about things. However, I'd argue Anderson is a step in the right direction with his toughness.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Beyond the Bargnani comments I agree. He has never wavered on Bargnani.

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    Assuming he understands/knows that Scola (from the Rockets) once played and got developed in the European "style" of game, I wonder if he would have written something similar if it was Scola and not Andersen that got traded to the Raptors yesterday.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    I don't think anything he said is wrong. His syntax is a bit off but what he said has some truth to it. This is the core qoute:

    If you’ve ever seen a Euroleague basketball game,
    then you know the roster is littered with foreign
    talent and a few American players...

    According to that American-centric logic the Raptors are a foreign NBA team with foreign talent with a few American players. Yes Barbosa is Brazilian, he's also not American. Phillips believes that even though Euroleague is exciting its not as good as American basketball and that Colangelo is not facing up to that reality.
    He said "European game" and then went on to list player. Nene is from Brazil. Does he play a Euro game because he's comes from the continent of South America?

    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Personally, I disagree with him. Euroleague players or a Euroleague like structured team could work in the NBA, however, we should be looking for more Garbojosa's (hard-nosed high b-ball IQ types) and not Bargnanis (finesse players). I think Kleiza is a good step in that direction. Barbosa, Bargnani, Bellineli, Calderon are all finesse players. 4 players who probably will play fairly significant roles. Yes finesse players are important to a team but there's not enough balance in how Colangelo is going about things. However, I'd argue Anderson is a step in the right direction with his toughness.
    Exactly. It's who Colangelo chose and not where they're from. You don't need to be from America to be tough and hard working no matter what Americans think. Their superiority complex is what has taken them away from being a shining example of a great nation and reduced them to being everyone's punching bag.

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Assuming he understands/knows that Scola (from the Rockets) once played and got developed in the European "style" of game, I wonder if he would have written something similar if it was Scola and not Andersen that got traded to the Raptors yesterday.
    Scola isn't European but I get the message. There are a lot of tough hard working ballers in South America... Not that the writer would know.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Jul 29th, 2010 at 02:50 PM.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    I don't think anything he said is wrong. His syntax is a bit off but what he said has some truth to it. This is the core qoute:

    If you’ve ever seen a Euroleague basketball game,
    then you know the roster is littered with foreign
    talent and a few American players...

    According to that American-centric logic the Raptors are a foreign NBA team with foreign talent with a few American players. Yes Barbosa is Brazilian, he's also not American. Phillips believes that even though Euroleague is exciting its not as good as American basketball and that Colangelo is not facing up to that reality.

    Personally, I disagree with him. Euroleague players or a Euroleague like structured team could work in the NBA, however, we should be looking for more Garbojosa's (hard-nosed high b-ball IQ types) and not Bargnanis (finesse players). I think Kleiza is a good step in that direction. Barbosa, Bargnani, Bellineli, Calderon are all finesse players. 4 players who probably will play fairly significant roles. Yes finesse players are important to a team but there's not enough balance in how Colangelo is going about things. However, I'd argue Anderson is a step in the right direction with his toughness.
    Andersen is not tough, he's as soft as melted butter- have you not seen him play in the NBA? He's a jump shooting big man who gets bullied in the paint- point blank. He can be effective off the bench in spot minutes but I have a feeling that BC may start him at center in order to move Barg's to PF if he can't acquire another center.

    Six non American players(Bargnani, Bellineli, Barbosa, Kleiza, Andersen, on a NBA roster is stretch and makes TO look like an Euro/NBA mix experiment team ie United Nations, instead of a real NBA team looking for the best talent ie Kleiza(I don't care if he went to HS in the US)- wtf? Barnes should have been given Kleiza's contract. Hopefully Jose gets traded for some real talent not some more international flavor of the month. It's like half of the team is US and the other half is Foreign ie 2 teams inside of one- didn't BC just talk about a cultural locker room divide last season and he's adding to that mix hoping for exactly what this time around? Stupid mofo'er. This whole Euro/International player movement has blown up in his face. I'm all for getting the best players but BC & Jim Kelly(director of player personnel) get the "gas face" for this international player fetish. Not to mention that this is a team made up of mostly of pfs & pgs (only real center is Alabi and he's as raw as uncooked hamburger)- as is.

    Team UN

    Bargnani/Alabi (moved to US from Nigeria at 15)
    Andersen
    Klieza
    Barbosa/Bellineli
    Calderon

    Team America

    Johnson/DJones (will most likey be waived)
    Davis/Evans/Dorsey
    DeRozan
    Weems
    Jack/Banks


    I'd roll with team America. BC needs to trade Bargnani and build around the YG'z- ASAP.

    *Btw- The best Raptor teams in the past have had very little international players on their roster- hmmm.....

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    Why do you need to segregate them at all? Colangelo should move in the direction he took this off-season. That being adding players who appreciate hard work. I don't care if he finds them on Mars. A tough hard working baller is a tough hard working baller. They aren't putting something magical in the water down south.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why do you need to segregate them at all? Colangelo should move in the direction he took this off-season. That being adding players who appreciate hard work. I don't care if he finds them on Mars. A tough hard working baller is a tough hard working baller. They aren't putting something magical in the water down south.
    Don't use words that you can't define as I didn't segregate anyone.lol I just presented the roster make up- as is, and given the media documented cultural divide in the locker room last season under Jay's "no accountability" era why go down that road again? Get the best basketball players, not the best international players, available ie Kleiza over Barnes. Btw- there are no players on Mars.

    The best basketball players come from the US as it is a culture entity in America ie basketball player verses one who plays basketball. BC can search the world over for talent but the best talent is in the US- point blank.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    segregate
    1. to separate or set apart from others or from the main body or group; isolate:
    Source: Dictionary.com

    You separated the international players away from the rest of the team in your last post. It fits the definition.

    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    I just presented the roster make up- as is, and given the media documented cultural divide in the locker room last season under Jay's "no accountability" era why go down that road again? Get the best basketball players, not the best international players, available ie Kleiza over Barnes. Btw- there are no players on Mars.
    It's been elaborated that the divide was just with some players and in particular over them speaking a different language other than English around everyone. It was viewed as disrespectful and I agree.

    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    The best basketball players come from the US as it is a culture entity in America ie basketball player verses one who plays basketball. BC can search the world over for talent but the best talent is in the US- point blank.
    There is great talent everywhere. Of course it's highest concentration is in the U.S. The point is that the American media doesn't want to acknowledge that there are good players elsewhere. Some of the best players in the league are from different countries.

    FYI, Kleiza played high school and college ball in the U.S.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Jul 29th, 2010 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: Dictionary.com

    You separated the international players away from the rest of the team in your last post. It fits the definition.



    It's been elaborated that the divide was just with some players and in particular over them speaking a different language other than English around everyone. It was viewed as disrespectful and I agree.



    There is great talent everywhere. Of course it's highest concentration is in the U.S. The point is that the American media doesn't want to acknowledge that there are good players elsewhere. Some of the best players in the league are from different countries.

    FYI, Kleiza played high school and college ball in the U.S.
    I know Kleiza played in the HS/NCAA basketball US as did Alabi(Nigeria). Who are you trying to school.lol It was more than just talking a different language in the locker room- believe what you wish.

    Once again I didn't segregate anyone you can try to rationalize it any way you want to yourself- free will.lol

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    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    I know Kleiza played in the HS/NCAA basketball US as did Alabi(Nigeria).
    Ok, so they were educated in America by American trainers and coaches for years. The only difference between them and American players is their birth certificate.
    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    It was more than just talking a different language in the locker room- believe what you wish.
    I'm missing something obviously. What was it that caused the divide and who was involved? I work in an environment where I work with people from all over the world. Believe me, there is no rift in the office.
    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    Once again I didn't segregate anyone you can try to rationalize it any way you want to yourself
    It's not worth debating. I don't care. I just wanted to prove that it fit the definition you claimed I didn't know.

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    As long as Colangelo puts together a talented and tough-nosed team, it doesnt matter where they're from. It shouldn't matter if they're from the US or not. It actually might be easier to retain guys who are from around the globe considering Toronto is very cosmopolitan and players (aside those from the US) feel very much at home here. It's funny that some US players are ignorant on the idea of Toronto considering teh USA and Canada are quite similar. I mean, most of the major markets in the NBA - Boston, New York, Chicago, Philadelphia have similar climates (and it's not like you play the games outside). ANd the cities are virtually the same except for Toronto being cleaner.

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    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    *Btw- The best Raptor teams in the past have had very little international players on their roster- hmmm.....
    Sorry what? Prior to around 2003, foreign players existed but were relatively rare.

    Our best overall team (despite not making it to the second round) was from 2006-2007. That team included Calderon, Bargnani, Garbajosa and Rasho. All played fairly significant minutes. I wouldn't consider any of the Carter teams better as actual teams. Those teams were carried by Carter, although I won't deny he had plenty of good role players around him in JYD, Antonio Davis, Mo Pete, Oak, Alvin Williams...you know'em all. But if Carter had a bad game, we lost. The '06-'07 team was about sharing the ball and making the extra pass. I have to say, thinking about it makes me miss Sam Mitchell.

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    and i'm prejudiced against fat ass redneck, hilbilly slob, incestful americans. stfu, i've had enough of foreign people coming into our game and dissing us we mother canucking originated basketball idiots. you americans are the foreign ones.

    and what a stupid name the United States OPf America tha sounds like a country inside a country. now all you need is state inside a stateoh wait you already have it seattle,washington,d.c.,u.s.a. how freakin stupid can you get oh yeah i forgot rick mercer decided to go find out and it turns out i'm not prejudiced at all because all the shit i wrote about you above is TRUE!!!



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    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    Don't use words that you can't define as I didn't segregate anyone.lol I just presented the roster make up- as is, and given the media documented cultural divide in the locker room last season under Jay's "no accountability" era why go down that road again? Get the best basketball players, not the best international players, available ie Kleiza over Barnes. Btw- there are no players on Mars.

    The best basketball players come from the US as it is a culture entity in America ie basketball player verses one who plays basketball. BC can search the world over for talent but the best talent is in the US- point blank.
    No, you didn't simply present the roster make-up as is. You decided to divide them into two teams; Team UN and Team America. If that isn't segregation, then what is? There is absolutely no need to divide the team up by place of birth. Unless the NBA comes up with a rule that limits the number of foreign players you can have on the court, then birthplace doesn't matter one bit, so why divide them into groups? All I see is one group, and people generally would call that group the Toronto Raptors.

    As far as the Kleiza over Barnes signing, I don't think the Raptors thought Barnes would be available to them, so they moved quickly to sign Kleiza. I would've preferred Barnes as well, but they played it safe, and I'm OK with that. I would much rather have Kleiza and no Barnes, then have nothing at all. Colangelo didn't just decide that he needed a foreigner. And as you've already acknowledged, Kleiza went to high school in the US, and that makes him a "more American" than Steve Nash. Nash was born in South Africa, grew up in BC, and only went to college in States. If all GMs thought like you, Nash would've never been in the NBA.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Ok, so they were educated in America by American trainers and coaches for years. The only difference between them and American players is their birth certificate.


    I'm missing something obviously. What was it that caused the divide and who was involved? I work in an environment where I work with people from all over the world. Believe me, there is no rift in the office.

    It's not worth debating. I don't care. I just wanted to prove that it fit the definition you claimed I didn't know.
    I don't know anything about Alabi's or Kleiza's hs years in relation tor what type of training they underwent and/or with whom. I do know that Alabi isn't a NBA ready center and is a few years away at least from being a rotation player. Also, that Kleiza has no handles or mid range game, can't create his own shot, can't guard starting NBA SFs consistently, he's basically just a spot up shooter who will throw his body around. Kleiza is more of a PF than a SF- Raptor talent evaluators?

    Are you comparing your work enviorment to the Raptor's locker room? Of course folks at your job are going to get along for the most part as they most likely need their paychecks to pay bills and maintain a stardard of living. The NBA is nothing like your job- and I don't even know what you do, the NBA is a fantasy world to work in as a player.lol

    Like I said before I didn't segregate anyone I broke the TO roster down by the player's country's of origin ie US or International, nothing more nothing less now, given the context of this thread topic I must say that you are speaking pure balderdash. Now, if want to call that segregation I highly suggest that you go and look up some Civil Rights era or Jim Crow era videos in order to see what real segregation is all about not some facetious concept that you came up with in your mind in relation to said thread topic- knowledge without wisdom is like wisdom without knowledge- baseless & self serving.

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    Quote Kreza23 wrote: View Post
    No, you didn't simply present the roster make-up as is. You decided to divide them into two teams; Team UN and Team America. If that isn't segregation, then what is? There is absolutely no need to divide the team up by place of birth. Unless the NBA comes up with a rule that limits the number of foreign players you can have on the court, then birthplace doesn't matter one bit, so why divide them into groups? All I see is one group, and people generally would call that group the Toronto Raptors.

    As far as the Kleiza over Barnes signing, I don't think the Raptors thought Barnes would be available to them, so they moved quickly to sign Kleiza. I would've preferred Barnes as well, but they played it safe, and I'm OK with that. I would much rather have Kleiza and no Barnes, then have nothing at all. Colangelo didn't just decide that he needed a foreigner. And as you've already acknowledged, Kleiza went to high school in the US, and that makes him a "more American" than Steve Nash. Nash was born in South Africa, grew up in BC, and only went to college in States. If all GMs thought like you, Nash would've never been in the NBA.
    Read the concept of the original thread topic then recognize game or remain metally lame.

    Steve Nash has nothing to do with this and obviously you didn't comprehend my previous posts as I said that- I believe in getting the best talent available and that the best talent is in the US-point blank. That doesn't mean there isn't talent elsewhere. I grew up a follower of Drazen Petrovic so save the stereotype drama for ya.......- you know the rest, bless.

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    Quote Introcollapse wrote: View Post
    Sorry what? Prior to around 2003, foreign players existed but were relatively rare.

    Our best overall team (despite not making it to the second round) was from 2006-2007. That team included Calderon, Bargnani, Garbajosa and Rasho. All played fairly significant minutes. I wouldn't consider any of the Carter teams better as actual teams. Those teams were carried by Carter, although I won't deny he had plenty of good role players around him in JYD, Antonio Davis, Mo Pete, Oak, Alvin Williams...you know'em all. But if Carter had a bad game, we lost. The '06-'07 team was about sharing the ball and making the extra pass. I have to say, thinking about it makes me miss Sam Mitchell.
    Sorry to say but those VC/ADavis/Oakley led teams would have beat down Calderon, Bargnani(get real Oakley would have punked him from jump) & Rasho. Garbojosa was a warrior- I liked his game a lot too bad he got injured.

    The Sam Mitchell era was far more exciting than the no accountability era under Jay via BC.

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    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    Read the concept of the original thread topic then recognize game or remain metally lame.

    Steve Nash has nothing to do with this and obviously you didn't comprehend my previous posts as I said that- I believe in getting the best talent available and that the best talent is in the US-point blank. That doesn't mean there isn't talent elsewhere. I grew up a follower of Drazen Petrovic so save the stereotype drama for ya.......- you know the rest, bless.
    Wow, "recognize game or remain metally lame."
    "you know the rest, bless."

    That's really good! Did you learn how to do that in America, where all the best ballers are from? Or maybe an American taught you how to do that. Maybe you should battle with Primoz Brezec and decide where the best free-stylers are from too!

    Ya, I've read the concept of the original thread. He's all over the map, first criticizing the number of foreign-born players the Raptors have (which is one reason why I brought up Nash, the other reason being that despite Kleiza playing high school ball in the States that you still choose to group Kleiza in Team UN), then criticizing the validity of European basketball in the NBA, while including Barbosa in that mix.

    As Apollo has said, it's not the birth certificate that is the problem, it is the talent we have brought in. The Jermaine O'Neal trade was just as big a mistake as any other so far. So stopping the acquisition of foreign players doesn't change anything. We should stop looking at our new players as American or foreign, just evaluate the talent for what it is (good? bad? fits the team's needs? doesn't fit? etc). And if you grew up a follower of Petrovic, then why are you hating on foreign players so much? Why does it matter where they're from? Look, nobody here is saying that the Raptors are gonna do anything this year, but we're just trying to kill this ridiculous notion that place of birth has anything to do with talent.

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