View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6461
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    oh please apollo. If you didn't like my comments or are 'bored' with them then don't read them or respond to them. But don't tell me, based on a completely seperate discussion to the one you jumped in on and misinterpretted, what I can and can't contemplate or that it was I who was changing the discussion. Playing Bargnani just to play Bargnani still has an opportunity cost.

    I'll also mention that the idea of 'Bargnani changing' is nothing new either. Fifth year in a row this discussion has arisen. I fully expect it next year prior to the season starting to.
    Fully agree with the opportunity cost and if it means Davis not being given the same type of opportunity to prove where or if he fits on this team going forward it's a shame.

  2. #6462
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Well, i dont know how you can say he wont be able to "sustain" it if he improves. Didnt you say before that he's never shown improvement the past 5 years? Where are you basing that he cant "sustain" it when youve said you havent seen him improve? Personality? You just said you dont listen to interviews, how can you know a players personality by just watching him move? Some people who walk or move slow doesnt me theyre slow in the head. You can tell a lot about a person's personality when he talks.

    Well, he went from 25 to 23. not that significant to me. It wasnt like he was the franchise player that time or a Kobe or John Wall that they expected massive production from, and they had Rasho who was pretty much play well as well. And i dont deny the fact that Mitchell did discipline him, im sure he did but can you really compare a sophomore Bargnani to the now Bargnani?

    I too think it would have been a lot better for the team if he was moved after he was drafted, heck, it probably would have been better if he was never drafted by the Raptors. But unfortunately they did, and things that transpired after are what they are now. Again, we're not saying he will improve, its IF he improves. You want to trade him, some of us dont. So you can keep drawing as many lines as you want, ill keep moving them if he keeps improving.
    Bargnani has never shown any SUSTAINED improvement.

    Look at last season. Bargnani started off the season posting up a lot more and driving the ball more. In fact, in his first five games, he had a FTA/FGA ratio of 37%. That's excellent. And I recall someone here even pointing that out to me. Then the next two games he didn't get to the line once. He started taking more jumpers and settling for outside shots, more.

    And why do YOU believe he can sustain any improvements he makes? What, in his history, makes you think he can?

    And I'm not drawing different lines. Everyone else seems to be. I've never believed his defense will be adequate enough for him to be anything but a liability on defense and that would make it more difficult for the Raptors in the playoffs. Even if his defense improves, as I stated earlier, it would have to be a HUGE improvement for him to be adequate defensively, in my books. And just so you know I'm not picking on Bargnani, I've also said I'd want nothing to do with Amare or Boozer, either.
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  3. #6463
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    oh please apollo. If you didn't like my comments or are 'bored' with them then don't read them or respond to them. But don't tell me, based on a completely seperate discussion to the one you jumped in on and misinterpretted, what I can and can't contemplate or that it was I who was changing the discussion. Playing Bargnani just to play Bargnani still has an opportunity cost.

    I'll also mention that the idea of 'Bargnani changing' is nothing new either. Fifth year in a row this discussion has arisen. I fully expect it next year prior to the season starting to.
    Yeah, the idea of Bargnani changing isn't new but there is new information. There are new plot lines. The risk factor of holding him is gone now in my opinion. There is no risk to the Raptors seeing how Bargnani plays out this season or an additional season. This is my point.In the past there have been three distinct reasons why they should absolutely wait no longer to trade him.


    • "We need to trade him right now before the mystic of being the #1 pick rubs off and we can't get top value for him."
    • "We need to move him right now because we don't want to see him locked up to a long term contract"
    • "We need to trade him right now because his value is only going to lessen. We need to get rid of this big contract before it can't be moved"


    All reasonable points when they were made countless times in the past but now there is no risk to keeping him. Cutting him wouldn't put them back too much, they're rebuilding. One more higher lottery pick? Not so bad when they suck now anyway. The Amnesty Clause is a game changer. And if they decide to trade him, well, he is what he is right now. I don't see his value being less at the end of the season if he scores like last year and doesn't improve at all.

    Anyway, I'm really looking forward to some games. I want to start judging him based on the new landscape instead of trying to interpolate based on the past, which is obsolete given the new factors and information.

  4. #6464
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    sick!!!!!

    thanks for posting man.

  5. #6465
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    sick!!!!!

    thanks for posting man.
    No worries.

    I used to own Payton's white home Sonics jersey. But sold it to a buddy for $20 cuz I need beer money

    I don't miss my broke student days...

  6. #6466
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    When I was a kid I didn't care about using my hands to fix things. I had no interest in home improvement. When I went to college that feeling did not change but then as time went on I changed, I suddenly cared. It wasn't due to an experience. I had matured over that time and suddenly things that I felt were boring or tedious or unemployable suddenly felt vital that I know to be a real man, to look after my family, to best represent who I was as a person. I felt bad that I couldn't fix a toilet or paint a wall. So what did I do? I studied up, I repainted my whole house, I put down new flooring on two different floors of my house. I power washed, sanded and refinished my back deck. I replaced a door, I installed a new threshold, I did all these things that I once felt were a pain in the ass and I enjoyed it and I felt obligated in a way to do it because it was my responsibility to do so. And I don't mean to sound cocky but I feel I've become pretty good at doing handyman stuff around the house now. Maturity, it's a game changer Tim. Bargnani hasn't played defense or rebounded in the ball in the past primarily due to a lack of effort. You hear him talk earlier in his career and it's all about the offense. Even when he started to talk about rebounding and defense a couple years ago you could tell he was just saying what people wanted to hear. He had no enthusiasm when he talked about it. Nothing lit up in his eyes when the topic came up. I have not heard an interview with him this camp but I have heard from Casey and he's saying Bargnani is doing a whole lot of things that to me imply a new found maturity and finally a damn sense of accountability in doing the things he needs to do to be the man of this house so to speak. Will he succeed? Damned if I know but I know I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you when we both know the outcome of it. That being zero progress. Fine, you don't believe he can do it. I've heard it a million times now and I've agreed at times but there's nothing left to be said there. Let's watch and see what he does.
    How is liking to fix things a sign of maturity? That makes no sense. I never liked doing that either, but when we bought a house, suddenly I couldn't get enough of those reno shows. I guess buying a house is a game changer. So is having kids. So is owning your first car. Your first relationship. The first time you walk on your own. etc.

    Now, I'd tend to agree that rebounding is mostly effort, your earlier comment about Rodman seems to contradict this. It wasn't just effort, but studying the game.

    And Bargnani's lack of defense is not just effort. I'm not sure why you say that. Not from what I've seen. Yes, that's part of it, but most of it seems to be the fact that it's simply not instinctual with him. The problem with being taught how to play defense at this level is that it means you have to think about it. If you're thinking about what you have to do on defense, you're too late. Especially in the NBA. You can be taught what to do in certain situations and what players have certain tendencies, but if you don't have the instincts, you're still going to be clueless out there.
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  7. #6467
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Then explain Kevin Love? Troy Murphy (when he played ofcourse)?

    Its not unreasonable to expect a big man to rebound like a big man.

    The idea of 'well he's a bad rebounder so we should set the bar low for him' is not what you are going to get from me.
    The idea that Bargnani such a poor rebounder because he shoots outside is probably one of the worst of many Bargnani excuses. It only explains why he's a poor OFFENSIVE rebounder, and most rebounds are defensive ones. And Bargnani is a poor defensive rebounder, as well.
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  8. #6468
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How is liking to fix things a sign of maturity? That makes no sense. I never liked doing that either, but when we bought a house, suddenly I couldn't get enough of those reno shows. I guess buying a house is a game changer. So is having kids. So is owning your first car. Your first relationship. The first time you walk on your own. etc.
    It's relevant because different people mature at different times. With maturity comes a greater sense of accountability. So far he's showing a greater sense of accountability. Dwayne Casey doesn't strike me as a guy who tosses out complements when they're unwarranted. He's a tough guy with an old school mentality. This isn't fluff.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Now, I'd tend to agree that rebounding is mostly effort, your earlier comment about Rodman seems to contradict this. It wasn't just effort, but studying the game.
    No it doesn't. He studying the game right now. I mentioned multiple times about how he was the first guy in the gym and how Casey is praising him for his workouts. That's hands on study of the game. Do you know what the coaches are working on with him? I'd assume rebounding and defense seeing how Colangelo and Casey keep harping about it.


    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And Bargnani's lack of defense is not just effort.
    I never said anything absolute like that.

  9. #6469
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It "never seems to work" because people don't seem to get what I'm saying, on that subject. And I say that because their responses don't seem to make sense to me. I expect to change people's mind as much as you do.

    I think players and coaches speak to the media so much, and are so trained to do it that it ends up meaning absolutely nothing. Especially when they can say things for different reasons, including knowing that others are going to read their words.

    As for Colangelo, I wasn't just going on what he was saying. That's the thing. If it was just what Colangelo said. It was a a series of things. What you have to realize is that people don't always say what they mean, when talking to the media. So you can either try and decipher it, which is difficult and usually pointless, or ignore it, which is what I usually do. But when there were a series of things that happened and were said by different people, it seemed to point to something.
    whoa! hold up, i dont change people's minds here. i say my piece, if somebody responds, i respond. i dont suggest to people, i say what i think is right and say thats my opinion. i dont hold against people what they say. thats where we're different. please do not say we are alike.

    i think they are guided to say certain things, but theyre not told to only say whats right. we've seen a lot of players who have been very vocal.

    well didnt you say Bargnani was going to be traded because of the things Colangelo said and ok, did or are doing? Well i havent read anywhere that Bargnani has been traded. And we're one week away from the season. Oh, i guess now youre going to say the trade deadline hasnt passed yet?
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Dec 14th, 2011 at 03:19 PM.

  10. #6470
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yeah, the idea of Bargnani changing isn't new but there is new information. There are new plot lines. The risk factor of holding him is gone now in my opinion. There is no risk to the Raptors seeing how Bargnani plays out this season or an additional season. This is my point.In the past three have been three distinct reasons why the should abosolutely wait no longer to trade him.
    • "We need to trade him right now before the mystic of being the #1 pick rubs off and we can't get top value for him."
    • "We need to move him right now because we don't want to see him locked up to a long term contract"
    • "We need to trade him right now because his value is only going to lessen. We need to get rid of this big contract before it can't be moved"


    All reasonable points when they were made countless times in the past but now there is no risk to keeping him. Cutting him wouldn't put them back too much, they're rebuilding. One more higher lottery pick? Not so bad when they suck now anyway. The Amnesty Clause is a game changer. And if they decide to trade him, well, he is what he is right now. I don't see his value being less at the end of the season if he scores like last year and doesn't improve at all.
    But there is a risk. It includes time, resources, and other opportunities. The 'risk' of finding out what Bargnani can or can't do IS the opportunity cost of finding out what Bargnani can or can't do. Its the risk of his trade value dropping. Its the minutes given to him that aren't to others. Its usage given to him thats not given to others. Its a roster spot that could be used in a different way or form.

    The plot line may be altered but its still the same old story. 'Maybe this year will be different'.

    There is a risk to that. Just like there was a risk every other year it happened. Sometimes the risk is more, sometimes its less... but each time you take that risk 'one more time' all you've done is marginalize your returns

  11. #6471
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    No worries.

    I used to own Payton's white home Sonics jersey. But sold it to a buddy for $20 cuz I need beer money

    I don't miss my broke student days...
    I have all his jerseys. The only one im missing is the USA when he wore #14.
    Ill give an arm, leg and even throw in a kidney to get that. hahahaha

  12. #6472
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I have all his jerseys. The only one im missing is the USA when he wore #14.
    Ill give an arm, leg and even throw in a kidney to get that. hahahaha
    your own or someone elses?

  13. #6473
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How is liking to fix things a sign of maturity?
    Now youre the one taking it too literally. See how that feels?

  14. #6474
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    your own or someone elses?
    hahahahahahahaha im no Jigsaw.

  15. #6475
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    But there is a risk. It includes time, resources, and other opportunities. The 'risk' of finding out what Bargnani can or can't do IS the opportunity cost of finding out what Bargnani can or can't do. Its the risk of his trade value dropping. Its the minutes given to him that aren't to others. Its usage given to him thats not given to others. Its a roster spot that could be used in a different way or form.

    The plot line may be altered but its still the same old story. 'Maybe this year will be different'.

    There is a risk to that. Just like there was a risk every other year it happened. Sometimes the risk is more, sometimes its less... but each time you take that risk 'one more time' all you've done is marginalize your returns
    I disagree. They have Ed, Amir and Andrea right now as the three primary big men. Then everyone else is supporting. Andrea won't be taking minutes away from the other two core guys. Those two guys will get their's no matter what as long as they work hard.

    I also disagree in terms of trade value. He's the primary option and Casey it talking like that isn't changing, in fact Casey wants to work on feeding him more high percentage opportunities. His scoring will be fine and that's his market right now anyway.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I actually think Bargnani is pretty easy to defend if opposing coaches were more comfortable with sticking a shorter, quicker small foward-type player on him (e.g. Josh Smith, Jeff Green, Wilson Chandler, Mbah A Moute, LeBron, Deng, Rashard Lewis etc.). They would have the lateral quicks to stay in front of Bargnani, and Bargnani wouldn't bother using his size to his advantage by posting up his smaller defenders.
    I always find it amazing how little NBA coaches and assistant coaches know compared to us fans. Why these morons spent hours upon hours dissecting game tapes when frankly, they would be far better served looking at answers on fan websites.

    'Cause we have the definite answers and the only reason we are not coaching or managing a team is we were not provided with the opportunity! But we would rock if we were ever empowered! 82-0 (or 0-82 if you prefer tanking) GUARANTEE!

    Just poking fun at you (and others) a little bit; please don't read too much nto it.

  17. #6477
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    It's relevant because different people mature at different times. With maturity comes a greater sense of accountability. So far he's showing a greater sense of accountability. Dwayne Casey doesn't strike me as a guy who tosses out complements when they're unwarranted. He's a tough guy with an old school mentality. This isn't fluff.
    But as I've been saying, a greater sense of accountability doesn't turn Bargnani into a different person, which seems to be what some are expecting. Maturity isn't going to suddenly make defense instinctual, for him. It's not going to make him into a workhorse on the boards.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No it doesn't. He studying the game right now. I mentioned multiple times about how he was the first guy in the gym and how Casey is praising him for his workouts. That's hands on study of the game. Do you know what the coaches are working on with him? I'd assume rebounding and defense seeing how Colangelo and Casey keep harping about it.
    He's studying the game. Great. Unfortunately he's 26 and in his 6th season. That's a little late.

    And I have no doubt we'll see improvements for Bargnani. Hearing that he's working hard is encouraging. But, again, it's not going to turn him into a player he simply is not.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I never said anything absolute like that.
    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Bargnani hasn't played defense or rebounded in the ball in the past primarily due to a lack of effort.
    Primarily is close enough.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    whoa! hold up, i dont change people's minds here. i say my piece, if somebody responds, i respond. i dont suggest to people, i say what i think is right and say thats my opinion. i dont hold against people what they say. thats where we're different. please do not say we are alike.

    i think they are guided to say certain things, but theyre not told to only say whats right. we've seen a lot of players who have been very vocal.

    well didnt you say Bargnani was going to be traded because of the things Colangelo said and ok, did or are doing? Well i havent read anywhere that Bargnani has been traded. And we're one week away from the season. Oh, i guess now youre going to say the trade deadline hasnt passed yet?
    Coaches and execs are much more practiced with what they say. Players sometimes talk off the cuff, but even then, you never know whether they believe what they say or meant to say it.

    And I never said Bargnani was going to be traded. I wrote a post about it here...
    http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...s-of-bargnani/

    If it was just what COlangelo had said, I would have taken it with a grain of salt. It was the fact that there were other things going on that made me look closer to what Colangelo was saying. And I was simply implying that I thought the Raptors were now open to trading Bargnani. I still think that might be true. Of course, none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe Casey said to give him some time with him and see if he turns things around. I can see Colangelo not thinking theres any hurry in trading Bargnani. It's a "lost" season, in terms of wins and losses, so maybe Casey and Colangelo decided to see what happens. Who knows?

    I'm not sure why you're trying to throw it back in my face, though.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Now youre the one taking it too literally. See how that feels?
    No, I'm not. My point is that fixing things is simply an interest one has. It's not a part of a person's personality. People's interests change over time. That's natural. And that has nothing to do with Bargnani.
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Then explain Kevin Love? Troy Murphy (when he played ofcourse)?

    Its not unreasonable to expect a big man to rebound like a big man.

    The idea of 'well he's a bad rebounder so we should set the bar low for him' is not what you are going to get from me.
    You failed to answer my question so I will repeat it:

    How would you rate Dirk Nowitzski as a rebounder? It would help me understand your position.

    I don't understand why you say I set the bar low when I would like him to increase his DRR from 13.9% to 19-20% to make me very happy. That's a 30% increase from last year and he would be an average defensive rebounder at that rate. I believe it is far more reasonable to ask someone who was always poor or horrible at something to become average at it because it is a goal the individual may accept as reachable. In my opinion, asking someone who is poor or horrible at something to suddendly become great at it (and 24% DRR is a great defensive rebounding rate) is setting expectations the individual cannot achieve and is incredibly bad people management in my experience.

    I would also like Amir Johnson to grab defensive rebounds at the same 19-20% rate. Amir was a slightly below average defensive rebounder last year and I believe he can improve upon that.

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