Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Hugmenot]

There is no reason that Bargnani shouldn't be expected to average right around where every other big man averages.

You may want to listen to the coach's interview starting around the 6 minute mark for Casey's opinion. He apparently will set the bar around 8.0 rpg.

http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...views-Dec-14th

Based upon (and thanks to) your explanation about Nowitzski's rebounding abilities, I think it's clear we will not agree on rebounding. Fair enough.

[Tim W.]

Tim.W have you EVER admitted you were wrong or accepted any points not in your favour?

Yes, when I'm wrong I do. Thankfully, that doesn't happen very often.

Your always contribute really well to discussions but you word things in a way that doesnt often 'directly' state anything, and then later take credit for things youve never strongly stated.

It' called talent.

What im trying to say is, you say things on either side of arguements and then when one side favours, you claim youve always said it, seemingly in a way of never being able to be wrong.
Sorry im terrible at wording things haha but its just irritates me
No offense, not trying to personally attack. But your posts are too smug lol

Seriously, though, I don't know how you can say I say things on either side of an argument. Not according to a lot of people around here. I think sometimes my arguments might seem inconsistent if you aren't paying close attention to what I'm saying. Take for example the Bargnani scoring efficiency argument. BY me arguing that he's not an efficient scorer, it might seem by some I'm complaining about how he scores. I'm not. I'm simply arguing something I believe is true. He's NOT an efficient scorer. And if he's going to be your #1 or #2 option, then that is something I would argue against for that very reason.

I HAVE a problem with the argument that he's an elite scorer. He IS, however, a very good complimentary scorer, much like Ray Allen is. On offense, he would be a terrific third option. The problem, though is that he's so poor in other areas that it makes his ability to score moot.

[j bean]

Just listened to the Casey interview on the fan. He says that Dirk up until a couple of years ago played a softer game much like Andrea. He got sick of being pushed around and has transformed his game into the Dirk that just led his team to the championship.
He is saying he is happy with the effort Andrea is putting in to break some bad habits of not being involved and using his size inside. I know it's only talk but I get the sense there will be no let up on Andrea until he has developed a habitual tenacity in his game.

[Nilanka]

Just listened to the Casey interview on the fan. He says that Dirk up until a couple of years ago played a softer game much like Andrea. He got sick of being pushed around and has transformed his game into the Dirk that just led his team to the championship.

Dirk was averaging over 9 rpg ten years ago, which was his 3rd year in the league. This is hardly a believable story, or an accurate comparison, even if coming from Casey's mouth, and just adds more weight to the idea that he's just trying to put a positive spin on the situation for the benefit of the local fans/media (and perhaps Bargnani's confidence).

[WhatWhat]

Dirk was averaging over 9 rpg ten years ago, which was his 3rd year in the league. This is hardly a believable story, or an accurate comparison, even if coming from Casey's mouth, and just adds more weight to the idea that he's just trying to put a positive spin on the situation for the benefit of the local fans/media (and perhaps Bargnani's confidence).

Not only that, Dirk's 2nd season was better than any season that Bargnani had. If Bargnani had a season comparable to Dirk's second season offensively, everyone would be screaming to keep him but I still think that he'll go all Boozer on us in the playoffs.

Also, in his 3rd season, it looks like he toughen up considerably. Dirk, from his 3rd season on, never had a PER below 22(!), nor had his DRB% gone below 20%.

We honestly should have stopped this "experiment" and have trading Bargnani yesterday.

[HDRaps]

So, if your girlfriend constantly cheated on you, and cheated on everyone she's ever been out with, do you think you should ignore history and believe that this time it will be different? Or should you be forgiven for accepting that things will probably never change and move on? Which sounds more reasonable to you?

There once was a girl named Andrea
Who turned out to be quite a playah
She told her boy Tim
If you don't hit that rim
I've got boyz who'll fill it all daya

(did it happen something like that ... ?)

[c_bcm]

You can't trade him based on two crappy preseason performances. Sure he's disappointed since being drafted, but he's also playing with a ton of new faces yet again. Give him some time to mesh with the new guys again and if come Xmas time he's still underachieving then look at moving him. I'm one of Bargnani's biggest critics, but I think too many of you are a little too hasty to move him already.

As Axel Rose once said: "All we need is just a little patience"

Umm season starts on Christmas? Maybe Valentines Day is the next arbitrary non-NBA-related social event that we can gauge player performance development?

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I fail to see the point where you were forced to continue the discussion? If people don't like it... don't read it or get involved. Nobody forced you or apollo or anyone else is to respond to Tim or myself or anyone or vice versa.

Don't act like its everyone else who got the discussion going you and apollo started with:

My point was if the discussion is "Bargnani putting in effort during the summer", try not to be a negative nelly by responding "Well, i wouldnt read much into it because he never sustains effort"

Do you see my point now?

I guess i cant really dictate what you or other people post, but im just saying, dont always insert negativity into every Bargnani conversation, if possible.

But on the other hand, i guess its what makes the discussions interesting. So keep em coming.

Sorry, company xmas party. Beer involved.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Therein lies the frustration that I sense many people have when discussing Bargnani with you.

There have been threads about how Bargnani could improve to become a better player, or this thread talking about IF Bargnani DOES improve (ie: debate about candidates), but you always seem to take it back to "who cares, Bargnani should be traded" or "Amir is better than Bargnani" (ie: all the candidates are bad). People know your perspective on Bargnani quite well, that you would prefer him traded. BUT, if the thread is based on the assumption that Bargnani will be on the Raptors 2012 roster (like this one), it's frustrating when your input continues to be one-dimensional and falls outside that thread's frame of reference.

This thread is NOT discussing whether or not Bargnani should be traded. This thread is NOT discussing whether or not you think Bargnani will be traded. This thread is NOT discussing whether you think Bargnani can or will improve his defense/rebounding this season. The thread IS based on these two assumptions: 1) Bargnani will be a Raptor in 2012 2) Bargnani will improve defense/rebounding at least up to a respectable level under Casey. If you disagree with those two assumptions and therefore the entire premise of the thread, don't comment. We know you want Bargnani traded and doubt in his ability and/or desire to improve his defense/rebounding - but if you're not going to comment and add to the discussion within the definition of the thread, then there's no point reading/commenting on this particular thread.

It's like having a debate about whether black or white is the best color, and somebody comes along and posts a diatribe about why purple is the superior color and that anybody who continues the black/white debate is stupid because they are shades anyway, not colors. Who cares? For better or worse, the debate is whether black or white is the best color... respect the debate and stay on topic, or stay on the sideline.

Well said. I was gonna say something, but like i said, company party, beer involved. im buzzed. hahaha

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I think you're reading too much into it, quite frankly, but, to be honest, I still think there's a good chance he'll be gone, soon. And I've never felt that the end of last season. I think with such a compressed offseason, making big trades became more difficult. If you notice, most of the deals we've seen over the last week have been signings, not trades. Trades seem to take a while to go through, for some reason. Maybe there's more back and forth and testing the waters. Who knows.

Maybe I was more hopeful than anything, in writing the post. Looking at the evidence, it did appear that Colangelo might have changed his mind about Bargnani. And that still might be the case. This season seems to be a do or die season for many.

Besides, it's not as if I have any inside information here. My guess on what someone 3 thousand miles away is as good as anyones. I just thought putting the facts together came up with an interesting possibility.

So i guess when you said at the end of last season that you "predicted" them winning only 22-25 games, that you werent "thinking" but was rather sure that they were only going to win that many games. So im curious to know, if they did win more than 25, would you have said, Oh, i was only "thinking" of them winning 22, there were sooo many factors, etc etc. Would you have copped out rather than manned up?

Maybe then you had inside information on them winning only 22 games last season, coz i remember you saying you "predicted" it.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

There once was a girl named Andrea
Who turned out to be quite a playah
She told her boy Tim
If you don't hit that rim
I've got boyz who'll fill it all daya

(did it happen something like that ... ?)

hahahahaha thats dope!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Yes, when I'm wrong I do. Thankfully, that doesn't happen very often.



It' called talent.



Seriously, though, I don't know how you can say I say things on either side of an argument. Not according to a lot of people around here. I think sometimes my arguments might seem inconsistent if you aren't paying close attention to what I'm saying. Take for example the Bargnani scoring efficiency argument. BY me arguing that he's not an efficient scorer, it might seem by some I'm complaining about how he scores. I'm not. I'm simply arguing something I believe is true. He's NOT an efficient scorer. And if he's going to be your #1 or #2 option, then that is something I would argue against for that very reason.

I HAVE a problem with the argument that he's an elite scorer. He IS, however, a very good complimentary scorer, much like Ray Allen is. On offense, he would be a terrific third option. The problem, though is that he's so poor in other areas that it makes his ability to score moot.

Well, in defense of Tim, he always tells people who accuse him of saying something he didnt to "go check my previous posts".

Unfortunately (or should i say fortunately), nobody has the time of day to do that.

Notice tho, The Rawth didnt even mention a spec about Bargnani and still Tim's post ended criticizing Bargnani!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Tim.W have you EVER admitted you were wrong or accepted any points not in your favour?

Your always contribute really well to discussions but you word things in a way that doesnt often 'directly' state anything, and then later take credit for things youve never strongly stated.

What im trying to say is, you say things on either side of arguements and then when one side favours, you claim youve always said it, seemingly in a way of never being able to be wrong.
Sorry im terrible at wording things haha but its just irritates me
No offense, not trying to personally attack. But your posts are too smug lol

Multi, is that you? hahaha

[Tim W.]

Well, in defense of Tim, he always tells people who accuse him of saying something he didnt to "go check my previous posts".

Unfortunately (or should i say fortunately), nobody has the time of day to do that.

Notice tho, The Rawth didnt even mention a spec about Bargnani and still Tim's post ended criticizing Bargnani!

Hey, if people have the time to post on here, they might have the time to look back. Besides, I've always stood by all my arguments.

And I brought up Bargnani because that's what I thought he was referring to.

[Tim W.]

So i guess when you said at the end of last season that you "predicted" them winning only 22-25 games, that you werent "thinking" but was rather sure that they were only going to win that many games. So im curious to know, if they did win more than 25, would you have said, Oh, i was only "thinking" of them winning 22, there were sooo many factors, etc etc. Would you have copped out rather than manned up?

Maybe then you had inside information on them winning only 22 games last season, coz i remember you saying you "predicted" it.

You're kind of arguing semantics, here. At the beginning of the season, I posted on my blog a bunch of predictions (some of which happened, others did not). I did it because that's what lots of people do at the beginning of the year. Plus, I never predicted them winning 22 games. I think I said 27 or 28. And the year before I think I predicted 45 wins and they only won 39. So I seem to consistently overshoot by 6 or 7 games (which might mean the Raptors might only win 8 or 9 games this year- fair warning).

[The Rawth]

No, but me and Multi got along pretty well haha! Being on the same page about Bargnani most.
I wonder where hes gone, miss his funny threads and 'constructive' contributions to Bargs discussions haha.

[Matt52]

There is a guy we shall call Mr. X and he gets to see almost every minute of every Raptors practice unlike we grunts who see a whole lot of the third-floor concourse at the ACC and a whole lot of free-throw shooting each day.

AndreaAnyway, I’ve known Mr. X for a number of years, have come to rely on him for some insight, some inside information, some guidance on what’s actually going with the HOTH.

Hadn’t talked to him in a while but ran into him the other day in a private moment and I’ll share the start of the conversation, almost verbatim:

Me: How’s camp?

Mr. X: It’s really good, everybody’s working hard, getting a lot of stuff done. Don’t know how good we’ll be but they’re really working.

Me: Oh yeah? Who’s been the best?

Mr. X: Hmmm. Amir’s been good, Jerryd, Jamaal’s been banging people. Best guy in camp? Andrea.

Me: Andrea? Bargnani? Tall kid?

Mr. X: Seriously, I know. Yes. He’s at least trying to play defence and rebound, he’s banging people, he looks really good.

Now, I can hear you scoffing and snickering already but if in fact what I’m hearing is true – and I have no reason to believe it isn’t, Mr. X has been known to rip a player or two privately over the years – that’s got to be good, right?

Before you all start laughing, let me say this for, oh, the billionth time: Andrea is not going to get 10 rebounds a night; hell, he might not get seven. But if he can be a better help defender, boxed out more effectively and simply be more engaged on the defensive end, he has a chance to be a huge part of that team.

Whether he does or not is entirely up to him but it would appear – and, again, this is from someone who often provides brutally frank assessments of players – that he’s working at it harder than perhaps he ever has.

And that’s what Dwane told us the other day discussing Bargnani’s play:

I think age has something to do with that, maturity, understanding when you can get in there and how you can get in there. I think that has a lot to do with it …

I’m going to stay on him, he’s going to get tired of me telling him to go rebound but until a player decides to improve that area of his game at this level … it’s on him. I do believe he’s going to make an effort to do that …

I told him we need two (rebounds) a quarter, you’re up to eight and you can fall into a couple more. That’s our goal with him and he’s made a concentrated effort of doing that, we had diner the other night and we talked about that extensively.

We, as they say, shall see. This is training camp, after all; it’ll be a whole different ball of wax starting Sunday. The enigmatic Bargnani has teased coaches, teammates, writers and fans before, I have no idea whether this time it’ll stick but there are those who think it will.

Source: Doug Smith's blog: TheStar.com

Kind of makes you feel warm and fuzzy.... until you remember off seasons of past. I guess all we can say is we'll see.

Dwane Casey's way of looking at it is very simplistic yet genius: go get 2 rebounds a quarter. Of course then the haters will want 10 but lets get to 8 first.

[yertu damkule]

Source: Doug Smith's blog: TheStar.com

Kind of makes you feel warm and fuzzy.... until you remember off seasons of past. I guess all we can say is we'll see.

Dwane Casey's way of looking at it is very simplistic yet genius: go get 2 rebounds a quarter. Of course then the haters will want 10 but lets get to 8 first.

personally, i hate the idea of putting some arbitrary number on the number of rebounds anyone should be 'getting' - be it in a given quarter, half, game, season, whatever. i assume that casey's message isn't 'go get 2 rebounds, then coast for the rest of the quarter,' but rather, to have it be on andrea's mind that rebounding is something he's got to do whenever he's on the court...and if he does, then the rebounds will come, his numbers will improve, and we'll get off his back.

FWIW - re. the haters...i KNOW; crazy to want 10 boards/game from a 7'1" guy playing 36 mpg. THAT'S ALMOST ONE REBOUND FOR EVERY THREE-&-A-HALF-MINUTES OF COURT TIME!!! CRAZY!! i guess it goes to show how far our expectations have fallen that we're ready to do a massive circle-jerk at the PROSPECT of him getting into the 8/game range. or that his coach is seemingly aiming that 'high.'

[Matt52]

personally, i hate the idea of putting some arbitrary number on the number of rebounds anyone should be 'getting' - be it in a given quarter, half, game, season, whatever. i assume that casey's message isn't 'go get 2 rebounds, then coast for the rest of the quarter,' but rather, to have it be on andrea's mind that rebounding is something he's got to do whenever he's on the court...and if he does, then the rebounds will come, his numbers will improve, and we'll get off his back.

FWIW - re. the haters...i KNOW; crazy to want 10 boards/game from a 7'1" guy playing 36 mpg. THAT'S ALMOST ONE REBOUND FOR EVERY THREE-&-A-HALF-MINUTES OF COURT TIME!!! CRAZY!! i guess it goes to show how far our expectations have fallen that we're ready to do a massive circle-jerk at the PROSPECT of him getting into the 8/game range. or that his coach is seemingly aiming that 'high.'

WHY DO YOU RESPOND WITH ALL CAPS? ARE YOU YELLING AT ME?

I don't think anyone interprets get 2 rebounds and coast. I certainly didn't. There is a teaching method called 'whole-part-whole'. You introduce the concept or skill, break it down to its parts, return to focus on the entire concept.

How many people have been telling Bargnani to rebound for years and throwing arbitrary numbers like 10 rebounds, 7 feet tall, 36 minutes? A lot. Fans, media, coaches, assistant coaches, management, teammates.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "Andrea, you've got to rebound... just go get the ball.... look at how big you are." Yeah, that has been extremely successful. A new spin might make something click. It is the first time I've heard anyone directly related to the Raptor organization say, "I told him we need two (rebounds) a quarter, you’re up to eight and you can fall into a couple more. That’s our goal with him and he’s made a concentrated effort of doing that."

As for the haters, I just put a post up that spoke about him being the best player in the gym (warm and fuzzy was my comment on it) and about the 2 rebounds a quarter (simple yet genius was my comment) - and what part of the article and comment gets attacked? Nope... there is no hate for Andrea... none at all.

[Nilanka]

If Bargnani can near the 10 rpg mark, while drastically improving his off-the-ball defensive awareness, while still maintaining his offensive ability, while limiting his low percentage shots (early in the shot clock), and maintain this effort for a full season...

...we could very well have a franchise player on our hands.

Is all of the above likely to fall into place? Well, that's what we've been discussing for what seems like an eternity.