View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6841
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    great to hear coming from him considering he's been historically criticized for the exact same thing... yet, been the most consistent player on the team so far this season..

  2. #6842
    Raptors Republic All-Star saints91's Avatar
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    I'm liking this guy. He has totally gone through a major change this year. He is playing and acting like "the man" on this team. I love his interviews, and his personality on the court. It's something that has been missing in the past. He is claiming this team and we should be building around him.

    If DeMar can get back on track this team has a really bright future. If not, I think we have taken a step back as a franchise. I don't care how much we loose as long as those two are developing and playing well. This team will be a contender in a couple years with DeMar, Jonas, Bargnani and a stud SF (ex. Barnes) added through the draft. We will also have a couple complimentary pieces with J.J. and Amir.

  3. #6843
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Bargnani is still not THE piece. He can be a very good second option but i think THE piece should be the person we draft this year.

  4. #6844
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    Amen brutha!!!

    This is exactly what I was referring to in the case of DeMar. Some of these guys might be over-analyzing things which will eventually affect your mental game. These guys gotta load up with some ginseng or something before game time.

    http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/201...NIPOST-1961690
    I think you might be overthinking the issue. The players just aren't that good. The margin for error is slim to none. Even if they play perfect they are going to lose more than win.

    Don't get me wrong, I like hearing Bargs call out the entire team (including himself) but focus, resilience and consistency only get you so far. They just don't have the horses. Yeah, part of it last night was focus and intensity but those issues were compounded by the fact that, other than Bargs, this team has nowhere to go for scoring or playmaking and that leads to poor decisions and mistakes.

    I laughed about Jose not having any answers. The answer is that the team has next to no talent. Calderon knows that, Casey knows it, Bargs knows it, Colangelo knows it. Except they can't say it, so we're going to hear b.s. about focus, identity, effort, professionalism, etc. all year to try and shift the focus from the organizational issues to individual players.

  5. #6845
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    ^ Fair weather fan alert! no talent my ass how the hell do you make it to the Nba in the first place if you have no talent? this team has lots of talent and all the "bs" you say is what is the main problem. focus, identity, effort, professionalism, etc is the problem. I hate when people say a team doesn't have talent that's a huge load of garbage if you ask me.

  6. #6846
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    ^ Fair weather fan alert! no talent my ass how the hell do you make it to the Nba in the first place if you have no talent? this team has lots of talent and all the "bs" you say is what is the main problem. focus, identity, effort, professionalism, etc is the problem. I hate when people say a team doesn't have talent that's a huge load of garbage if you ask me.
    Koolaid Fan alert!!

  7. #6847
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    I'm going to start describing some of my co-workers as "mentally soft"
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

  8. #6848
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    There should be no surprise or outrage in Raptorland over their record. If you expected playoffs based on a couple of really good showings in the first 10 games, shame on you. Things are going to plan so far, as much as I can tell. The focus on "effort", "professionalism", "consistency" etc. are quite valid and I can't see how you'd take it as an excuse to ignore the talent deficiency of parts of the roster. The organization is in evaluation mode for this year. As long as management is learning something about the players they have and determine whether they're a bankable asset going forward, the season will be a success.

    1. The team as a whole is leaps and bounds better defensively already -- their man D showed immediate improvement, and now the zone is coming along as well. The intensity on that side of the ball is better than I've seen since the Oak years, so Casey + the vet presence + whatever is working.

    2. Individual "weak D players" are improving by leaps and bounds as well. Jose and Bargs are both playing more-than-adequate man D, and Bargs is showing a growing aptitude for help D as well. His biggest problem is not being able to hold onto the ball when he gets his hands on it off the boards. I'd wager he's missed out on at least 3 rebounds per game because he can't hold onto the thing and gets it tapped away.

    3. They have a leader. Like it or not, Bargnani has taken ownership of this year's team. Whether you consider him a true #1 guy or a second banana, he's the man for this season. And so far, he's saying and doing all the right things. I can't really say enough about the changes he's exhibiting this year, and I was quite willing to write him off for good if he had come in playing like last year.

    4. Offensively, granted, they are pretty abhorrent so far. This doesn't concern me; 1, because this is a talent evaluation, not a championship run, and 2, because based on last year's performance on O, we know they *can* do it. It's likely a matter of time for the O to catch up to the D. They haven't had much practice time at all, and what they've had has been focused on D. You can't underestimate that.

    As for individuals:

    I'm very excited by what Bargs has shown so far. It really does have that "light switch" look about it (as in, the switch finally got flipped sometime this past summer).

    Jose has proven again that he's the best PG on the squad by a long shot, and that he's not as washed-up as some people have been saying since that first hamstring injury years ago.

    Amir has been old faithful. He gets a little better/more efficient each year, but I think he's near his ceiling now. Which is a nice ceiling of consistent double-doubles and great defense. A great 6th/7th man.

    Demar is slumping hard. The comments from Colangelo about inconsistent training are surprising and troubling, since the fallback optimism with DD has always been that his work ethic will get him to his max potential. I hope that's just a GM trying to motivate through criticism. He looks like he has the talent, but he hasn't been able to put it all together yet. Wondering if some of it could be his coming in thinking he'd supplant Bargs as the #1 option and being disappointed. He has the rest of the year to pick it up, or else I think he'll be on the "assets to be traded" list this summer along with half the roster.

    Ed Davis is just a soph, without even a full NBA season under his belt, so I write his struggles off to that. He's in the same boat as Demar in having to prove himself worthy of being a "core" piece going forward. He also has the talent, but I've always been a bit concerned about his work ethic. Last year, the talk from coaches was that he amazed everyone during games because of the lacklustre effort he often showed in practice. I don't care how good you are at 20 years old -- you gotta work hard all the time. I think he's heard that loud and clear from Casey, and we'll see how it affects his consistency for the rest of the year. It should be easier for him than Demar, because Ed doesn't rely on creating his own shots or scoring to prove his worth. He just has to take a page from Amir's book.

    James Johnson is a "meh" player at the moment. Defensively, he's great, but if he can't play any O to save his life, what's the point? I really like his game on D, though, so I really hope he can find a decent mid-range J soon.

    The rest of the roster is pretty much chafe, and everyone knows it. Some will be around longer than others, but none of these guys will be here in 3 years when the team should be competing for real. Sonny may be back, and Kleiza could stick, but all the rest will be gone this summer, I bet. In fact, I'd be shocked if Barbosa made it past the trade deadline, and Bayless could be thrown in, too, as an expiring.

    This is really just a pilot project building toward next season and beyond. Try to get Demar, Ed, Bargs, and Amir (and maybe JJ) up to speed as guys you can start building a playoff squad with, bring in JV and another high pick next year, sign a solid FA or two, and away you go to phase 2 of the rebuild: find a franchise player, either within or from outside the organization.

    Check the expectations and instead just watch the team develop, for good or bad. Either way, the knowledge gained in evaulating these guys in this difficult situation will be invaluable.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  9. #6849
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    There should be no surprise or outrage in Raptorland over their record. If you expected playoffs based on a couple of really good showings in the first 10 games, shame on you. Things are going to plan so far, as much as I can tell. The focus on "effort", "professionalism", "consistency" etc. are quite valid and I can't see how you'd take it as an excuse to ignore the talent deficiency of parts of the roster. The organization is in evaluation mode for this year. As long as management is learning something about the players they have and determine whether they're a bankable asset going forward, the season will be a success.

    1. The team as a whole is leaps and bounds better defensively already -- their man D showed immediate improvement, and now the zone is coming along as well. The intensity on that side of the ball is better than I've seen since the Oak years, so Casey + the vet presence + whatever is working.

    2. Individual "weak D players" are improving by leaps and bounds as well. Jose and Bargs are both playing more-than-adequate man D, and Bargs is showing a growing aptitude for help D as well. His biggest problem is not being able to hold onto the ball when he gets his hands on it off the boards. I'd wager he's missed out on at least 3 rebounds per game because he can't hold onto the thing and gets it tapped away.

    3. They have a leader. Like it or not, Bargnani has taken ownership of this year's team. Whether you consider him a true #1 guy or a second banana, he's the man for this season. And so far, he's saying and doing all the right things. I can't really say enough about the changes he's exhibiting this year, and I was quite willing to write him off for good if he had come in playing like last year.

    4. Offensively, granted, they are pretty abhorrent so far. This doesn't concern me; 1, because this is a talent evaluation, not a championship run, and 2, because based on last year's performance on O, we know they *can* do it. It's likely a matter of time for the O to catch up to the D. They haven't had much practice time at all, and what they've had has been focused on D. You can't underestimate that.

    As for individuals:

    I'm very excited by what Bargs has shown so far. It really does have that "light switch" look about it (as in, the switch finally got flipped sometime this past summer).

    Jose has proven again that he's the best PG on the squad by a long shot, and that he's not as washed-up as some people have been saying since that first hamstring injury years ago.

    Amir has been old faithful. He gets a little better/more efficient each year, but I think he's near his ceiling now. Which is a nice ceiling of consistent double-doubles and great defense. A great 6th/7th man.

    Demar is slumping hard. The comments from Colangelo about inconsistent training are surprising and troubling, since the fallback optimism with DD has always been that his work ethic will get him to his max potential. I hope that's just a GM trying to motivate through criticism. He looks like he has the talent, but he hasn't been able to put it all together yet. Wondering if some of it could be his coming in thinking he'd supplant Bargs as the #1 option and being disappointed. He has the rest of the year to pick it up, or else I think he'll be on the "assets to be traded" list this summer along with half the roster.

    Ed Davis is just a soph, without even a full NBA season under his belt, so I write his struggles off to that. He's in the same boat as Demar in having to prove himself worthy of being a "core" piece going forward. He also has the talent, but I've always been a bit concerned about his work ethic. Last year, the talk from coaches was that he amazed everyone during games because of the lacklustre effort he often showed in practice. I don't care how good you are at 20 years old -- you gotta work hard all the time. I think he's heard that loud and clear from Casey, and we'll see how it affects his consistency for the rest of the year. It should be easier for him than Demar, because Ed doesn't rely on creating his own shots or scoring to prove his worth. He just has to take a page from Amir's book.

    James Johnson is a "meh" player at the moment. Defensively, he's great, but if he can't play any O to save his life, what's the point? I really like his game on D, though, so I really hope he can find a decent mid-range J soon.

    The rest of the roster is pretty much chafe, and everyone knows it. Some will be around longer than others, but none of these guys will be here in 3 years when the team should be competing for real. Sonny may be back, and Kleiza could stick, but all the rest will be gone this summer, I bet. In fact, I'd be shocked if Barbosa made it past the trade deadline, and Bayless could be thrown in, too, as an expiring.

    This is really just a pilot project building toward next season and beyond. Try to get Demar, Ed, Bargs, and Amir (and maybe JJ) up to speed as guys you can start building a playoff squad with, bring in JV and another high pick next year, sign a solid FA or two, and away you go to phase 2 of the rebuild: find a franchise player, either within or from outside the organization.

    Check the expectations and instead just watch the team develop, for good or bad. Either way, the knowledge gained in evaulating these guys in this difficult situation will be invaluable.
    jimmie, that is a fantastic post. Good read and, stealing a phrase from Matt Devlin, "Bang on!"

  10. #6850
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    There should be no surprise or outrage in Raptorland over their record. If you expected playoffs based on a couple of really good showings in the first 10 games, shame on you. Things are going to plan so far, as much as I can tell. The focus on "effort", "professionalism", "consistency" etc. are quite valid and I can't see how you'd take it as an excuse to ignore the talent deficiency of parts of the roster. The organization is in evaluation mode for this year. As long as management is learning something about the players they have and determine whether they're a bankable asset going forward, the season will be a success.

    1. The team as a whole is leaps and bounds better defensively already -- their man D showed immediate improvement, and now the zone is coming along as well. The intensity on that side of the ball is better than I've seen since the Oak years, so Casey + the vet presence + whatever is working.

    2. Individual "weak D players" are improving by leaps and bounds as well. Jose and Bargs are both playing more-than-adequate man D, and Bargs is showing a growing aptitude for help D as well. His biggest problem is not being able to hold onto the ball when he gets his hands on it off the boards. I'd wager he's missed out on at least 3 rebounds per game because he can't hold onto the thing and gets it tapped away.

    3. They have a leader. Like it or not, Bargnani has taken ownership of this year's team. Whether you consider him a true #1 guy or a second banana, he's the man for this season. And so far, he's saying and doing all the right things. I can't really say enough about the changes he's exhibiting this year, and I was quite willing to write him off for good if he had come in playing like last year.

    4. Offensively, granted, they are pretty abhorrent so far. This doesn't concern me; 1, because this is a talent evaluation, not a championship run, and 2, because based on last year's performance on O, we know they *can* do it. It's likely a matter of time for the O to catch up to the D. They haven't had much practice time at all, and what they've had has been focused on D. You can't underestimate that.

    As for individuals:

    I'm very excited by what Bargs has shown so far. It really does have that "light switch" look about it (as in, the switch finally got flipped sometime this past summer).

    Jose has proven again that he's the best PG on the squad by a long shot, and that he's not as washed-up as some people have been saying since that first hamstring injury years ago.

    Amir has been old faithful. He gets a little better/more efficient each year, but I think he's near his ceiling now. Which is a nice ceiling of consistent double-doubles and great defense. A great 6th/7th man.

    Demar is slumping hard. The comments from Colangelo about inconsistent training are surprising and troubling, since the fallback optimism with DD has always been that his work ethic will get him to his max potential. I hope that's just a GM trying to motivate through criticism. He looks like he has the talent, but he hasn't been able to put it all together yet. Wondering if some of it could be his coming in thinking he'd supplant Bargs as the #1 option and being disappointed. He has the rest of the year to pick it up, or else I think he'll be on the "assets to be traded" list this summer along with half the roster.

    Ed Davis is just a soph, without even a full NBA season under his belt, so I write his struggles off to that. He's in the same boat as Demar in having to prove himself worthy of being a "core" piece going forward. He also has the talent, but I've always been a bit concerned about his work ethic. Last year, the talk from coaches was that he amazed everyone during games because of the lacklustre effort he often showed in practice. I don't care how good you are at 20 years old -- you gotta work hard all the time. I think he's heard that loud and clear from Casey, and we'll see how it affects his consistency for the rest of the year. It should be easier for him than Demar, because Ed doesn't rely on creating his own shots or scoring to prove his worth. He just has to take a page from Amir's book.

    James Johnson is a "meh" player at the moment. Defensively, he's great, but if he can't play any O to save his life, what's the point? I really like his game on D, though, so I really hope he can find a decent mid-range J soon.

    The rest of the roster is pretty much chafe, and everyone knows it. Some will be around longer than others, but none of these guys will be here in 3 years when the team should be competing for real. Sonny may be back, and Kleiza could stick, but all the rest will be gone this summer, I bet. In fact, I'd be shocked if Barbosa made it past the trade deadline, and Bayless could be thrown in, too, as an expiring.

    This is really just a pilot project building toward next season and beyond. Try to get Demar, Ed, Bargs, and Amir (and maybe JJ) up to speed as guys you can start building a playoff squad with, bring in JV and another high pick next year, sign a solid FA or two, and away you go to phase 2 of the rebuild: find a franchise player, either within or from outside the organization.

    Check the expectations and instead just watch the team develop, for good or bad. Either way, the knowledge gained in evaulating these guys in this difficult situation will be invaluable.
    Fantastic post, sir.

  11. #6851
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Nice post Jimmie.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

  12. #6852
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    ^ Fair weather fan alert! no talent my ass how the hell do you make it to the Nba in the first place if you have no talent? this team has lots of talent and all the "bs" you say is what is the main problem. focus, identity, effort, professionalism, etc is the problem. I hate when people say a team doesn't have talent that's a huge load of garbage if you ask me.
    I've been Raptors fans for 15 years. They are the only team in any pro sport I cheer for. I had season tickets for the 4 years I lived in Toronto. I was in the Philly stands covered in beer and ketchup and spit when VC went off rim in the EC semi-finals. I've suffered through Thomas, Damon Stoudemire leaving, the Babcock years, VC being traded for a bag of balls, Bosh leaving, Chris Childs forgetting how to count, the red t-shirt debacle, the Araujo era, etc., etc. Don't judge my bona fides as a fan.

    As for the "talent" comment, it's pretty clear when someone says a pro team has little or no talent that they mean pro-level talent. Not talent per se. Guys I played with in high school had talent, but not NBA-level talent. Second, let me ask you a question: how many guys on this Raptors would start on any one of the 16 playoff teams last year? Bargs on some. Maybe Calderon on a couple. Who else? "This team has lots of talent". Who?

    If you want to quibble on semantics, then that's okay, I'll put it this way: this team does not have enough players playing at a high enough skill level to compete with other NBA teams. A good NBA team needs at least 8 highly skilled players that range from good to elite to superstar to win. The Raptors have one (Bargs), maybe two (Calderon). Everyone else is fungible. Derozan and Davis may grow into "top 8" players but neither is there yet.

  13. #6853
    Raptors Republic Rookie Beagle's Avatar
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    jimmie, if you haven't found your calling yet, you should probably try your hand at being a sports writer.

  14. #6854
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Beagle wrote: View Post
    jimmie, if you haven't found your calling yet, you should probably try your hand at being a sports writer.
    Thanks, and if you know anyone looking for one... ;-)
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  15. #6855
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    4. Is Andrea Bargnani finally living up to his billing as the No. 1 pick?


    James Ham, Cowbell Kingdom: If the 2006 NBA draft were done all over again, LaMarcus Aldridge would be the clear overall first pick. Bargnani can score, but that's about it. He is a 7-footer who rebounds like a small forward, plays suspect defense and wills his team to be a sub-.500 club; not exactly first overall pick material.

    Mark Haubner, The Painted Area: In the context of the 2006 draft, yes. Bargnani now stands with LaMarcus Aldridge and Rajon Rondo as the three All-Star-caliber players in that class. Most stunning is that the Raptors have allowed fewer points per possession with Bargs on the floor than off. Andrea has been one of the league's absolute worst by that metric for three straight seasons.

    Chris Palmer, ESPN The Magazine: AB is playing really well, pumping in a career-best 23.7 ppg. I'd say if he makes a couple more strides on the defensive end, he lives up to the No. 1 pick, as far as the stat sheet goes. But No. 1 overall picks are supposed to turn a franchise around completely, and he hasn't done that.

    Michael Pina, Red94: Bargnani is playing fantastic basketball right now, but he's no franchise pillar. A building block, yes, but No. 1 overall picks are supposed to serve as the foundation for teamwide renovation projects. Unless Toronto is able to pair him with one (or two?) certified stars, Bargnani and his lack of overall ability will prevent Toronto from venturing toward anything meaningful.

    Timothy Varner, 48 Minutes Of Hell: Give Bargnani credit for a strong start, but he still doesn't look like a player around whom the Raptors can build their franchise. Until Bargs shows more than a little scoring ability, I continue to see him as a quality backup on a good team.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...ved-player-far
    Before I make my point, the 2006 draft if done today has Bargnani at 3 or 4 with Aldridge, Rondo, and more than likely Gay ahead of him.


    My point: These guys are still reading the box scores and 2010-2011 scouting report on him.

  16. #6856
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Thanks, and if you know anyone looking for one... ;-)
    Lots of blogs looking for guest posters I would think. It's a place to start.

  17. #6857
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I agree. Most people writing about the Raptors obviously don't watch their games. It's clear as day that they don't.

  18. #6858
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    I believe that's the same article where they are guessing who the MIP will be this season. I didn't see a single nomination for Bargnani, which tells me that nobody is paying attention to the Raptors.

    That's Bargnani's trophy if he wants it.

  19. #6859
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Before I make my point, the 2006 draft if done today has Bargnani at 3 or 4 with Aldridge, Rondo, and more than likely Gay ahead of him.


    My point: These guys are still reading the box scores and 2010-2011 scouting report on him.
    I think its funny how these guys are saying that to be a franchise player, you have to "turn the team around completely", and "show more than scoring ability (which i think he's shown but not just "great" at it).
    How can you lead a franchise turnaround when the next best scorer on your team is averaging 14 a game, on 40% shooting? How can you turn a team around when your fellow starters are a combined 39pts per game? WTF? Even Lebron cant turn this team around. Or Kobe.

    I think if Bargnani shows a bit more consistency on rebounding and defense, i dont mind him being a franchise player. And i think he'll do fine as one.

    Rose is getting around 16 attempts per game, Kobe 23, Durant 18 and Dirk at 15 and Bargnani, 16. So it aint like Bargnani is ball hogging and getting all the plays set for him and none for Demar or the other starters. The major difference is Rose has Deng and Boozer, Kobe has Bynum and Gasol, Durant has Westbrook and Harden and Dirk has well....thats why theyre 5-5 right now, 8th seed in the west, champions last year. You cant turn a team around with a franchise player, you need a franchise player and other good players as well, who play good.

  20. #6860
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    Koolaid Fan alert!!
    that was a pathetic way to reply...

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