View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    4 3.57%
  • B

    47 41.96%
  • C

    27 24.11%
  • D

    14 12.50%
  • F

    20 17.86%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

  1. #7561
    Raptors Republic Superstar ceez's Avatar
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    Default Bargnani is reliably unreliable

    Andrea Bargnani’s offensive game is, in theory, beautiful. The Toronto Raptors big man has the habit of putting together spurts during which he is unstoppable. He will take one controlled dribble to the side to elude a too-slow defender and unleash a feathery jumper. The ball will dip just in time, splashing through the mesh just inside the back rim.

    During those spurts, he will sometimes go a few steps further. He will catch the ball on the baseline, take a few dribbles to blow by a defender, twirl and dunk the ball on the other side of the rim. Or he will get the ball in the post, dribble and turn around for a hook shot. He will get to double digits in scoring in an instant on the strength of these surges. For all of his flaws, Bargnani is tremendously gifted.

    But as the years roll on, it is becoming more difficult to believe in those moments. Bargnani’s drawbacks are well documented, but even his offence exists more in the speculative world than the practical one. Bargnani has started the season averaging 16.2 points per game on 36% shooting. Following a three-game stretch in which he shot worse than 33% from the floor, his 7-for-19 effort against Orlando on Sunday was almost welcome.

    He has performed poorly without star guard Kyle Lowry, who was brought in partly to make Bargnani’s life easier. But Bargnani is being paid US$10-million, a salary befitting a secondary star. Those players are supposed to be able to help carry the load when adversity hits.

    Last year, in the 13 games he played before sustaining a calf injury that bothered him for the rest of the year, Bargnani supplied the best production of his career — averaging 23.5 points on 48% shooting while adapting well to Dwane Casey’s defensive system. In almost every imaginable way, he has regressed back to his old self to start this year.

    “I’m going to push him and pull him as much as I can,” Casey said before the season started. “But it’s up to Andrea. The talent is there. He’s the only guy that can pull it out from himself. I think every method in the world, every scenario has been played for him for this organization.”

    Bargnani has been typically maddening this season. In last Monday’s triple-overtime loss against Utah, he shot 3-for-4 in the first quarter and had an impact defensively. The rest of the way, he shot 2-for-13 and disappearing from the final 51 minutes as DeMar DeRozan, Jose Calderon and Amir Johnson tried to carry the Raptors to a win. That is Bargnani, at this point: reliably unreliable, varying from productive to lost within the span of single games.

    Andy Lyons/Getty ImagesToronto Raptors' Andrea Bargnani has started the season averaging 16.2 points per game on 36% shooting. And that is just his offence. He has been poor defensively this year, and the Raptors have taken a major hit from last year. He is rebounding at the worst rate of his career this season, with DeRozan — a shooting guard who has grabbed a mere 6.7% of available rebounds over the course of his career — rebounding at a better rate than him.

    Over the last five years, Bargnani’s individual defensive rating (the points per 100 possessions the Raptors allow when Bargnani is on the floor) has been equal to or worse than the Raptors’ team rating each season. And his offensive rating (the points per 100 possessions the Raptors score when Bargnani either shoots or turns it over) has only been better than the Raptors’ team rating once in that span — last year, when he had that career-best stretch of games to start the season. That means putting the ball in the hands of Bargnani with the expectation that he scores has been an inefficient proposition. That does not account for Bargnani’s ability to create shots for others. Quite frankly, he does not do that very well.

    Without knowing the potential return, it is impossible to say for certain whether the Raptors should trade Bargnani. His detractors would argue that Bargnani has been a net negative for his entire career, with three different coaches, a few different roles and a cavalcade of different teammates. They would say it is nearly impossible to hurt yourself by trading Bargnani.

    His most ardent believers would argue that his ability to stretch the defence makes life easier for his teammates, even (and maybe even especially) when he does not touch the ball.

    One thing is for sure: It is time to stop judging Bargnani on what he might be able to do and start judging him on what he actually does.

    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...-by-potential/

    Nice article by Koreen. Nails it.
    @jerboat

  2. #7562
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post

    Koreen most definitely nails it.

    The stats from the chart at the bottom of the link is telling as well:

    Here is a look at the Raptors' fortunes in comparison to those of Andrea Bargnani over the last four years. Also listed are the offensive and defensive ratings of Amir Johnson, the only Raptor to also serve in the frontcourt for each of the past four years. (Note: Johnson's offensive rating is not a good comparison for Bargnani's because Johnson is rarely counted on to score. When he does get the ball, it is usually in high-efficiency situations.)

    .
    2009-2010 Off. Rtg Def. Rtg
    Team 111.3 113.2
    Bargnani 108 113
    Johnson 124 110
    .

    2010-11
    Team 105.9 112.7
    Bargnani 105 115
    Johnson 124 110

    2011-12
    Team 100.8 104.5
    Bargnani 104 106
    Johnson 109 102
    .
    2012-13
    Team 102.5 106.5
    Bargnani 93 108 .
    Johnson 118 102

    Legend
    • Team offensive rating: the number of points a team scores per 100 possessions
    • Team defensive rating: the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions
    • Individual offensive rating: the number of points a team scores per 100 possessions when that player makes the final offensive play (shooting or turning the ball over)
    • Individual defensive rating: the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions when that player is on the floor

    .


    .
    Source: http://www.Basketball-Reference.com
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

  3. #7563
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    did bargs 45% shooting and 40 from 3 with his 7 boards cost us this game too? or was it more horrible 4th quarter defence and 25% as a team from 3?

    i hope he goes to another team with jose in some sort of package deal and does great.

  4. #7564
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Miekenstien, everyone out on the floor, including the coach, deserve the blame for such a fourth quarter collapse..

  5. #7565
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    so thats everyone other than JV, Ed, and Ross.

    its why we want them to play so bad

  6. #7566
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    i understand the overall issue. my point is when he shoots just 36% he is crucified win or lose. tonight he had an alright game. i will give you jv and maybe ross at the 3, expecially against a team like philly. i think he can guard their wings. but i don't think ed and jv can play together unless ross starts shoot 35+ from 3 consistently.

  7. #7567
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    i understand the overall issue. my point is when he shoots just 36% he is crucified win or lose. tonight he had an alright game. i will give you jv and maybe ross at the 3, expecially against a team like philly. i think he can guard their wings. but i don't think ed and jv can play together unless ross starts shoot 35+ from 3 consistently.
    But did he have an alright game?

    That is where we differ.

    He had an alright game for Bargnani. He wasn't active on the glass by any stretch and a few rebounds bounced to him. But that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    He didn't take very many forced or ill advised shots. But that is what we expect from Bargnani so when he doesn't it is a pleasant surprise.

    21 shots for 22 points is hardly anything to be excited about but, again, that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    Bargnani had a ho-hum game. He didn't stand out. He certainly didn't take full advantage of his talent and physical tools with a slower or bigger matchup (depending on who was guarding). But that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    Sadly, expectations are likely the issue. So many, myself included, thought the stretch of games he showed as a player is who he should be every night. Sadly that is unrealistic, but that is what we expect from Bargnani due to his skills and talent. Because he is not a guy you can rely on nor is he a guy who can contribute in more ways than one the frustration will be ever present I believe.

    #tradeBargnani
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

  8. #7568
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But did he have an alright game?

    That is where we differ.

    He had an alright game for Bargnani. He wasn't active on the glass by any stretch and a few rebounds bounced to him. But that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    He didn't take very many forced or ill advised shots. But that is what we expect from Bargnani so when he doesn't it is a pleasant surprise.

    21 shots for 22 points is hardly anything to be excited about but, again, that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    Bargnani had a ho-hum game. He didn't stand out. He certainly didn't take full advantage of his talent and physical tools with a slower or bigger matchup (depending on who was guarding). But that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    Sadly, expectations are likely the issue. So many, myself included, thought the stretch of games he showed as a player is who he should be every night. Sadly that is unrealistic, but that is what we expect from Bargnani due to his skills and talent. Because he is not a guy you can rely on nor is he a guy who can contribute in more ways than one the frustration will be ever present I believe.

    #tradeBargnani
    i would say that 45% for a jump shooter isn't a bad shooting game. looking at his shot chart, he did mix it up pretty well. would still like it to be either a 3 pt shot or within 10 feet of the basket.

    my only issue with bargs right now is how when he is having a particularly ineffective game that klieza isn't thrown in. we have another stretch 4. i would even go so far as starting klieza and see if he can have a hot night and then give him another one and make andrea earn it away.

    i don't want to trade bargs but i think it will be better for him and us. whatever happens the guy is 27 and worrying about his psyche is stupid.

  9. #7569
    Raptors Republic Starter Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But did he have an alright game?

    That is where we differ.

    He had an alright game for Bargnani. He wasn't active on the glass by any stretch and a few rebounds bounced to him. But that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    He didn't take very many forced or ill advised shots. But that is what we expect from Bargnani so when he doesn't it is a pleasant surprise.

    21 shots for 22 points is hardly anything to be excited about but, again, that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    Bargnani had a ho-hum game. He didn't stand out. He certainly didn't take full advantage of his talent and physical tools with a slower or bigger matchup (depending on who was guarding). But that is what we expect from Bargnani.

    Sadly, expectations are likely the issue. So many, myself included, thought the stretch of games he showed as a player is who he should be every night. Sadly that is unrealistic, but that is what we expect from Bargnani due to his skills and talent. Because he is not a guy you can rely on nor is he a guy who can contribute in more ways than one the frustration will be ever present I believe.

    #tradeBargnani
    Absolutely they are.

    This organization expects Bargnani to be a significant core player leading to a successful team.

    Fans expect Bargnani to shoot inefficiently, defend poorly and hardly rebound - so when he shoots an average to poor efficiency and gets 7 whole rebounds (in 40 minutes no less). Thats 'alright'.

    Team has too high of expectations placed on him - fans too low.

  10. #7570
    Raptors Republic Superstar ceez's Avatar
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    Bargs had 184 point on the season so far.

    On 180 shots.

  11. #7571
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Absolutely they are.

    This organization expects Bargnani to be a significant core player leading to a successful team.

    Fans expect Bargnani to shoot inefficiently, defend poorly and hardly rebound - so when he shoots an average to poor efficiency and gets 7 whole rebounds (in 40 minutes no less). Thats 'alright'.

    Team has too high of expectations placed on him - fans too low.
    Craiger, was that you who made that comment yesterday about expectations being unrealistic? Somebody said it, it is definitely not an original thought on my part.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

  12. #7572
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    Bargnani's play vs philly was disgusting.

    Its like he just gave up at the half. Absolutely no effort. Such Lazy ball handling.

  13. #7573
    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    Looking a little better, if you forget about the 2 rebounds.
    TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

    NEVER FORGET... NUMERO OCHO 👌 #saluteJose

  14. #7574
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    3 games in a row that he's shot the ball more efficiently. I hope he's starting to hit his stride and get him Lowry and Demar on the same page. Seems like it's always one or two of them on but never all 3. I'm gonna take some flak for this but that's on Lowry to get them both the ball where they need it to be successful. Lowry gets to touch it every possession so he'll get his opportunities but when Demar is going or Dre he's gotta keep it moving.

  15. #7575
    Raptors Republic Superstar Nilanka's Avatar
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    Maybe it's time we closed this thread. After 7500 posts, is there really anything new or insightful that can be said about Bargnani? We have literally witnessed every conceivable scenario, and discussed them all to death.

    If Management isn't willing to sever the Bargnani tie, surely we as intelligent fans, can do our part.

    Mods, please do the honourable....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  16. #7576
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    3 games in a row that he's shot the ball more efficiently. I hope he's starting to hit his stride and get him Lowry and Demar on the same page. Seems like it's always one or two of them on but never all 3. I'm gonna take some flak for this but that's on Lowry to get them both the ball where they need it to be successful. Lowry gets to touch it every possession so he'll get his opportunities but when Demar is going or Dre he's gotta keep it moving.
    Or Colangelo told him: if you ever want to get out of here, you better start playing some good ball between now and December 15th.

    I did put on my tinfoil hat writing that but as we've seen time and time again from Bargnani, he can turn it on and off at the flick of a switch.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

  17. #7577
    Raptors Republic Rookie Garbo's Avatar
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    GET HIM OUT OF HERE!
    This is killing me..

  18. #7578
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Everyone should adopt the bottom signature.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  19. #7579
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Or Colangelo told him: if you ever want to get out of here, you better start playing some good ball between now and December 15th.

    I did put on my tinfoil hat writing that but as we've seen time and time again from Bargnani, he can turn it on and off at the flick of a switch.
    lol tinfoil cap killed me.

  20. #7580
    Raptors Republic Starter RandomGuy's Avatar
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    http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/201...EAPOST-2302692
    last seconds of interview 1:50. "You just got to be aggressive". Paradox, if you know what I mean.
    #tradeBargnani #freeRaptorfans

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