View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8661
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I know you've addressed it. I just don't agree.

    Toronto needs Boozer less than it needs no-Bargnani, IMO. That's my point. We don't agree. This isn't about convincing one another that the other is correct. We have different opinions. It's OK.
    You can continue to tell me the sky is violet but it doesn't make it true. Statistical evidence mixed in with CBA reality says you are wrong.

    Bargnani/full MLE (4yr/$20)

    vs.

    Boozer/mini-MLE (3yr/$9M)



    Who are the Raptors going to sign in free agency at the difference of $2M per season and one extra year that will result in a swing of 4.6WS with a slight increase per48mins in scoring (+1.3), rebounding (+8.5 = +6.0 defensive, +2.5 offensive), assists (+1.0), and TS% (+1.2) PLUS the added production of the player on the mini-MLE.



    More than willing to agree to disagree especially when you've brought nothing to the discussion other than unfounded opinions of, as you admit, what might be or could happen.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #8662
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    How? Team appears to be playing slower with more ISO....

    I admire your dedication to education. I would just summarize everything like so

    Boozer = Better Than Bargnani (short term 1yr - 2yr advantage more money that you don't pay)

    Illyasova = Better Than Bargnani (long term 1yr - 10yr advantage less money that you don't pay)

    Gasol = Better Than Bargnani (short term 1yr advantage even MORE money that you don't pay) (up to 5 yrs if he resigns)

    Best Option Illysova
    Better Option Gasol
    Still Kinda Good Option Boozer
    Not An Option Bargnani


    I don't know how ANYONE using either stats, the eye test, advanced stats or METRO horoscope can't see this.

  3. #8663
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    lol - it is like watching Bargnani minus the ability to rebound and score on the block.
    Can't get rebounds on made shots. 30 minutes of lazy defense(Boozer) is worse than 15 of lazy defense(Bargnani). 5 minutes of lazy defense(Amir) is better.

    http://www.hoopdata.com/teamadvancedstats.aspx

    As of February 10 the Raptors are 23rd in Defensive Rating, 25 before the trade, 30th before Andrea's injury. 24th in Blocks. 29th in Charges. 19th in Steals. 14th in Defensive rebounding rate. 10th in Offensive rating, 12th before the trade, 19th before the injury. How does Boozer make the defense better?

    Defense wins championships. Offense gets you free pizza.

  4. #8664
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Chemistry is bullshit. Talent matters. The Lakers won championships with guys hating each other. Guys liking each other is great but it is not necessary. I don't like all the people I work with but we are still successful in our industry. I am also glad to see you are not saying any of these things are guaranteed because it sounds like you are full of shit - seriously. Statistical evidence please. Boozer has been a part of plus .500 teams since 2005/06 and has been in the playoffs since 2006/07.
    Agree. We don't need to worry about chemistry because we aren't very good. You only need to worry about chemistry when you are a legit title contender and are moving around minor pieces. Chemistry (and familiarity) is important for separating the elite teams in a 7 game series. The Raps are nowhere near needing to worry about chemistry yet.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  5. #8665
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Here he is against RR #1 option

    @Chr1st1anL

  6. #8666
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I did not include Millsap because any trade requires three teams to snag him

  7. #8667
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    Can't get rebounds on made shots. 30 minutes of lazy defense(Boozer) is worse than 15 of lazy defense(Bargnani). 5 minutes of lazy defense(Amir) is better.

    http://www.hoopdata.com/teamadvancedstats.aspx

    As of February 10 the Raptors are 23rd in Defensive Rating, 25 before the trade, 30th before Andrea's injury. 24th in Blocks. 29th in Charges. 19th in Steals. 14th in Defensive rebounding rate. 10th in Offensive rating, 12th before the trade, 19th before the injury. How does Boozer make the defense better?

    Defense wins championships. Offense gets you free pizza.
    Funny that Boozer is playing 30 mins per game on a team that is 3rd in opp/PPG and 4th in defRtg.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #8668
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    Can't get rebounds on made shots. 30 minutes of lazy defense(Boozer) is worse than 15 of lazy defense(Bargnani). 5 minutes of lazy defense(Amir) is better.

    http://www.hoopdata.com/teamadvancedstats.aspx

    As of February 10 the Raptors are 23rd in Defensive Rating, 25 before the trade, 30th before Andrea's injury. 24th in Blocks. 29th in Charges. 19th in Steals. 14th in Defensive rebounding rate. 10th in Offensive rating, 12th before the trade, 19th before the injury. How does Boozer make the defense better?

    Defense wins championships. Offense gets you free pizza.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Funny that Boozer is playing 30 mins per game on a team that is 3rd in opp/PPG and 4th in defRtg.
    And whats funnier, is he outlined the Raptors statistical rankings defensively, then asks How Boozer makes defense better. Shouldnt you have outlined Chicago's statistics instead?

    The Raptors are currently 25th in the league in rebounding. Boozer is averaging almost 10 rebs a game despite playing alongside Noah who gets 11rebs a game playing 38mins a game. He's instantly going to be the Raptors best rebounder if he joins the team.

    Defense? his DRating is currently at 100, only 3 pts lower then Noah who is the Bulls best defender. Boozer's defense has steadily improved throughout the years.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 02:40 PM.

  9. #8669
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I admire your dedication to education. I would just summarize everything like so

    Boozer = Better Than Bargnani (short term 1yr - 2yr advantage more money that you don't pay)

    Illyasova = Better Than Bargnani (long term 1yr - 10yr advantage less money that you don't pay)

    Gasol = Better Than Bargnani (short term 1yr advantage even MORE money that you don't pay) (up to 5 yrs if he resigns)

    Best Option Illysova
    Better Option Gasol
    Still Kinda Good Option Boozer
    Not An Option Bargnani


    I don't know how ANYONE using either stats, the eye test, advanced stats or METRO horoscope can't see this.
    I agree with your flow there. Problem is Bargnani does not appear to be capable of returning a desirable asset on his own (and Ilyasova and Gasol are desirable). So in that case the Raps are left to just get a better asset. If I have the choice between 2 undesirable assets, I'm going to take the better one.

    I would also add that amnestying Bargnani is a stupid option.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #8670
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    And whats funnier, is he outlined the Raptors statistical rankings defensively, then asks How Boozer makes defense better. Shouldnt you have outlined Chicago's statistics instead?
    With stats like that, anyone should make the defence better.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  11. #8671
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Funny that Boozer is playing 30 mins per game on a team that is 3rd in opp/PPG and 4th in defRtg.
    But yet he is to Chicago what Bargnani is to Toronto. Bulls fans despise him because he is lazy on defense. I guess Bulls fans have higher standards when it comes to defense and some Raptors fans just want free pizza.

    Also, he plays with Noah, Gibson, Deng, Hamilton and Hinrich who are all better defenders then Jonas, Amir, Rudy, Demar and Lowry. Thibodeau is also a much better coach than Casey.

    Raptors don't have time to wait for Jonas to be good enough on defense to mask Boozer's incompetence. He couldn't do it with Andrea and he will not do it with Boozer. You can hide a bad perimeter defender on defense but you can't hide a bad interior defender on defense.

    If the Raptors had an elite defense already then they could live with his incompetence. But they are not an elite defensive team and Boozer will not make them an elite defense. He will make them worse on defense than they are now.

    Google "Carlos Boozer defense" and you will quickly realize that 99% of people that watch the Bulls believe that Chicago has an elite defense in spite of Boozer.

  12. #8672
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    Quote japetas wrote: View Post
    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...er-They-Choose

    Sounds like Chicago want to get rid of Boozer's contract really bad
    We should oblige.

  13. #8673
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    But yet he is to Chicago what Bargnani is to Toronto. Bulls fans despise him because he is lazy on defense. I guess Bulls fans have higher standards when it comes to defense and some Raptors fans just want free pizza.

    Also, he plays with Noah, Gibson, Deng, Hamilton and Hinrich who are all better defenders then Jonas, Amir, Rudy, Demar and Lowry. Thibodeau is also a much better coach than Casey.

    Raptors don't have time to wait for Jonas to be good enough on defense to mask Boozer's incompetence. He couldn't do it with Andrea and he will not do it with Boozer. You can hide a bad perimeter defender on defense but you can't hide a bad interior defender on defense.

    If the Raptors had an elite defense already then they could live with his incompetence. But they are not an elite defensive team and Boozer will not make them an elite defense. He will make them worse on defense than they are now.

    Google "Carlos Boozer defense" and you will quickly realize that 99% of people that watch the Bulls believe that Chicago has an elite defense in spite of Boozer.
    I can't wait to read the Bulls' fans messages should this deal happen.

    Boozer is still a better player - both offensively and defensively - than Bargnani.


    This season Boozer OffRtg 101; DefRtg 100
    This season Bargnani OffRtg 95; DefRtg 110

    Boozer career OffRtg 110; DefRtg 102
    Bargnani career OffRtg 103; DefRtg 111


    Not to mention Boozer actually hits the glass and gives you 8.5 more possessions per 48 minutes.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #8674
    Raptors Republic Starter imaginelino's Avatar
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    am i missing something here? why do the bulls have such a hard on for this to happen? these must be warning bells if CHI wants to get rid of BOOZER so bad.. so bad that they are willing to take on Bargs..

  15. #8675
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote imaginelino wrote: View Post
    am i missing something here? why do the bulls have such a hard on for this to happen? these must be warning bells if CHI wants to get rid of BOOZER so bad.. so bad that they are willing to take on Bargs..
    It is not a basketball decision.

    This is all about money.

    Ownership refuses to pay the luxury tax this year.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #8676
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote imaginelino wrote: View Post
    am i missing something here? why do the bulls have such a hard on for this to happen? these must be warning bells if CHI wants to get rid of BOOZER so bad.. so bad that they are willing to take on Bargs..
    If every team assumed that a player is only on the block because he's no good, then trades would never happen.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  17. #8677
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Update!

    http://www.sportsworldreport.com/art...to-chicago.htm

    The Chicago Bulls are finally making something happen as the trade deadline approaches. According to the Chicago Tribune, the Bulls have put a trade offer on the table with the Toronto Raptors that would send Carlos Boozer and Nate Robinson to Toronto and recieve Andrea Bargnani and John Lucas III in return. The deal is officially waiting on the Raptors to approve it.
    So basically we trade Bargnani for exactly what we need. A competent back up point guard and a veteran low post presence PF.

    I can't see why we wouldnt pull the trade. Bargnani really cant lower his trade value much further, so this would be huge for us.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  18. #8678
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    But yet he is to Chicago what Bargnani is to Toronto. Bulls fans despise him because he is lazy on defense. I guess Bulls fans have higher standards when it comes to defense and some Raptors fans just want free pizza.

    Also, he plays with Noah, Gibson, Deng, Hamilton and Hinrich who are all better defenders then Jonas, Amir, Rudy, Demar and Lowry. Thibodeau is also a much better coach than Casey.

    Raptors don't have time to wait for Jonas to be good enough on defense to mask Boozer's incompetence. He couldn't do it with Andrea and he will not do it with Boozer. You can hide a bad perimeter defender on defense but you can't hide a bad interior defender on defense.

    If the Raptors had an elite defense already then they could live with his incompetence. But they are not an elite defensive team and Boozer will not make them an elite defense. He will make them worse on defense than they are now.

    Google "Carlos Boozer defense" and you will quickly realize that 99% of people that watch the Bulls believe that Chicago has an elite defense in spite of Boozer.
    He rebounds at good rate which is a part of defense. He might get the stop but, he'll close out the possession.
    @Chr1st1anL

  19. #8679
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Update!

    http://www.sportsworldreport.com/art...to-chicago.htm



    So basically we trade Bargnani for exactly what we need. A competent back up point guard and a veteran low post presence PF.

    I can't see why we wouldnt pull the trade. Bargnani really cant lower his trade value much further, so this would be huge for us.
    Interesting. Although, the article doesn't reference any sources.

    Edit: Nevermind...I somehow glossed over the Chicago Tribune reference.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  20. #8680
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    Default NBA trade rumors: Carlos Boozer-Andrea Bargnani deal waiting for Raptors to give OK

    The Chicago Bulls have a trade offer on the table to the Toronto Raptors. The offer that would send Carlos Boozer and Nate Robinson for Andrea Bargnani and John Lucas III it's up to the Raptors if they want to do it, according to the Chicago Tribune.

    The ESPN trade machine gives the trade advantage to the Raptors.
    So do we pull the trigger ?

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