haha I'm always impressed when people link to a previous post of theirs that states essentially the same thing, as support for their current post, especially when they refer to both of their posts as "fact" instead of "opinion"! Now that's a poster who makes it difficult to engage in constructive conversation/debate...heinz57 wrote:
Multipaul was brilliant for the linking to "Wayne Winston's Mathletics"... i cant tell you how much time i spent following up on that crap, with a constant "WTF" going on in my head... it took awhile to figure out that it was a diversionary tactic so you wouldn't notice that his arguments had no validity, he was just arguing for the sake of arguing
Yes, we had an exchange that unfortunately became quite petty on my end.
I wouldn't call it a falling out and I don't recall Tim every swearing never to post here again.
Obviously it was enough to piss him off enough to not come back.
Last edited by Matt52; Tue Mar 5th, 2013 at 05:13 PM.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
My comment was no defense of Bargnani, but a direct comment/opinion toward your 0-9 comment as being meaningless anecdotal information to support your narrative. I provided other examples to illustrate why I feel this way. The best you've got is to call me names? Sorry I thought you could handle a reasonable challenge to your comment.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
You on the other hand, twisting the truth or re-inventing history is your shtick.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
And the mob expands, lol. You got me wrong on advanced metrics though. I'm not much of a stat guy at all.
Usually I see you present fairly well reasoned opinions and insight, so if you can break yourself away from the mob for a bit, please tell me how the "0-9 when he scores......." is anything more than the same kind anecdotal information as Raps are 0-3 when Rudy has 4 steals, and have a better record when he has less. I see it as meaningless drivel to support a narrative, but would welcome enlightenment.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
Meaningless and anecdotal as it may be in your opinion, we are talking about a guy who has played just 33 games this season.
In games he has scored 20 or more the Raptors are 0-8.
In games he has not played at all, the Raptors are 14-13.
In games he has started the Raptors are 4-23.
In games he has played but not started the Raptors are 5-5.
That is the great things about numbers, basketball, and forums, people can and will draw their own conclusions - and quite often be extremely different. Personally, I see those numbers and feel they are quite telling and relevant. I respect anyone who feels differently I just think they are wrong.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
Actually thinking about this a bit more. I would probably not bow to Tim. I would concede the outcome he argued was correct without a doubt though.
Bargnani did for a very brief moment show what I - and many other "fanboys" - had hoped for. What I never saw prior to this season - maybe Tim and many other "haters" did - was the total lack of effort. Maybe it was there all along and I was blinded with optimism and hope.... jeepers creepers I hope I was not that delusional but I most likely was minus those 18 games last season.
The bottom line was anyone arguing for Bargnani and the positive impact he could have on Toronto never accounted for him being a zombie.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
So, let's compare them to the historical numbers:
Year Record 20+ games Winning percentage Record 20- games Winning percentage 2006/2007 3-1 75% 32-29 52% 2007/2008 5-6 45% 33-34 49% 2008/2009 12-14 46% 18-33 35% 2009/2010 17-10 63% 22-31 42% 2010/2011 16-25 39% 3-22 12% 2011/2012 9-6 60% 4-12 25% 2012/2013 0-9 0% 9-15 38% Career 62-71 47% 121-176 41%
Used the stats from basketball-reference.com.
About Tim: though many now agree with his opinion (as did many at the time) this doesn't mean he was somehow correct in hindsight; he was using the stats selectively to his advantage all the time (who doesn't though) and I don't think I've ever seen him concede that he was wrong on something, even if some of his points had been rebutted with strong arguments and/or facts.
Now that is the type of stuff I like to see. Thanks, SoftEuro.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+. I didn't need the stats to know that what you were presenting was simply convenient anecdotal information to support a narrative/agenda, any less than my example of Rudy having 4 steals is bad for the Raps. Thank you SoftEuro. Don't listen to my buddy Nilballsa. I went through the cycle most have with regard to high hopes for AB, and despite my stubborn version of fandom, have pretty much given up on him becoming what he's capable of. I'm not "pro Bargnani", but anti over the top twisting information and harping every day, that strangely enough seems to have been ramped up the day after he plays a very good game at both ends.
As twisted as I can be about .........(oops, better be careful about how candid I am about my own faults/errors, because Nilballsa will sneak up from behind like a sniveling weasel and use it against me tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now). Never mind.
Even though I've been accepting the reality of disappointment in Bargnani's lack of consistency and achieving the best he can be,,,,, and wanting him moved out as well, the incessant mud slinging here, and the booing him as he steps on the floor, has me praying he does the totally unexpected (yes, by me too) and totally turns it around, almost as much to stick it to some people, as it would benefit the Raps in getting value for him.
PS. I fail to see how responding with simply referring to me as the second coming of someone being dissed or laughed about, is in any way "respect" for a different opinion.
Last edited by p00ka; Tue Mar 5th, 2013 at 07:32 PM.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
The reality is when bargnani is healthy enough to play and he does so, this team sucks.
#TradeBargnani #JVIsABoss #RudyGayTime #DeRozanGoingHAM
My juvenile barb was a joke that was typed prior to your reply.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
It's much more interesting when people argue and disagree, makes the topic of conversation more appealing and the will to participate even greater.
Come on guys we need some trolls up in here, bring your A game
Even the one about Amir being the best player on the team? i realize this is a bad time to bring this up..
Totally agree. 'Stats' like these are almost as ridiculous as those "____ leads ____ 32-14 all time, looks like ____ is heavily favoured in this matchup". Yeah, because both teams have had the same roster for 30 years now.
You guys are obviously having a little brew-ha-ha. Keep it up, just don't go overboard.
I think isolated stats such as "if he scores 20+ points, the team is ___ this record" are very telling in one's ability to really impact a game, good or bad. But, it likely doesn't tell the whole story, because one player does not win/lose a basketball game.
I've never been a huge stat guy other than individual averages.. Never really believed in stats in general though. In a game like basketball, some of the best players in the league are totally opposite of what analytic's guys want to see.
Is that an apology? 'Cus it seems like you go 90% there and just let it linger for awhile...
For the record, I'm pro P00ka 30% of the time.
I could be wrong but I think Allen Iverson started all analysis of volume shooters, and the idea, that scoring a lot of points is not necessary good. I think a case can be made that Bargs has that ability to negatively impact a game with bad shoot selection. I heard on broadcast recently that one of the Van Gundy's (i think Jeff) argues that FG% is more about SHOT SELECTION than it is about ABILITY TO SHOOT. I think almost all Raptors with the exception of maybe Amir (we can't argue he's our best player, but can we argue he's our most productive player per dollar?), that get regular minutes either as starters or bench players have poor shot selection. To some extent I think you can blame the players (Bargs, but also Derozan, Lowry, and Gay) but you also have to give some of that blame to the coaching staff.
I'm not sure that you can go as far as to say the more bargnani scores the more likely we are to lose, but Bargs has had 3-4 coaches now, and I think he has shown poor shot selection for a number of years, possibly his whole career? People used to compare him to a Dirk Nowitzki then a Dirk-lite, and now NOBODY is making any Dirk comparison's. Shot selection is only one of those reasons, but it is a very easy point to poor shot selection as contributing offensive inefficiency. It'd be nice if we could improve shot selection of the entire team, either by players improving themselves or by better coaching schemes.
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
+1
That's not the mystery
The mystery is why we give a $&#!
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