View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Default Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

    When the dust finally settles, a process that could conceivably drag into August, the Raptors roster will have a look that will have one familiar face.

    Letís face it, Chris Bosh isnít coming back, Hedo Turkoglu will get traded and if the trifecta plays itself out ó even Jose Calderon will have a new address.

    For those who have followed the Raptors, be it from afar or on the periphery, there is only one name that stands out in the event the teamís core gets completely gutted.

    That name is Andrea Bargnani, a guy who came into the league as the No. 1 pick, a guy who made history in becoming the first European-born baller to go first overall.

    It is time for Bargnani to live up to the hype and all the expectations that followed his arrival from Italy to Toronto.

    The time is ripe in Torontoís continuing, if not elusive, evolution into a consistent player on the NBA landscape for Bargnani to assume the mantle of the franchiseís face.

    Whether he can elevate to such heights, whether heís capable of shouldering the burden and responsibility inherent with go-to guys canít be answered now.

    During his time in Toronto, Bargnani has taken strides, regressed, impressed, moved sideways and was threatening to become a coach killer when his underwhelming play forced the team to fire Sam Mitchell.

    P.J. Carlesimo will ensure that Bargnani doesnít take any shortcuts, but the onus will be squarely on the 7-footer when the Raptors gather sometime in October at training camp.

    Unless people get the wrong impression, the rebuild of the team is on, the first step taken when the Raptors got lucky at the No. 13 slot on draft night when Ed Davis fell into their lap.

    Davis is a piece, but the kid has a chance to be an immediate presence because heíll rebound, defend and run the floor.

    No one knows what Bosh will fetch in a potential sign and trade, but keep in mind Bosh can leave on his own to sign with any of a handful of teams with cap space without yielding anything to Toronto.

    It was a necessary risk the Raptors had to take, a consequence that may play itself out by as early as late next week when the biggest and most anticipated free-agent door in NBA history swings open.

    Whatever the Raptors have up their sleeve, and at this point anything must be viewed as possible, they have to address a need to acquire a facilitator, a Turkoglu-like player minus the selfishness and baggage.

    There are pieces such as Bargnani, Sonny Weems and DeMar DeRozan that should lead people to expect that the Raptors are gearing up for a season of athleticism and an up-and-down pace.

    Itís a team in transition that will play in transition, which isnít conducive to winning a lot of games, but at this stage itís something to build on.

    Some veteran pieces must be acquired to complement a stable of young bodies whose potential appears promising.

    At the end of the day, Bargnani figures to be the last man standing, Torontoís most skilled player who simply must come through for an organization he owes an awfully lot to, not only for taking him first overall but also for showing its continued support by extending him.

    Optics aside, the stage is being set for the Raptors to usher in a new era, a beginning that is shaping up as the beginning of Bargnani being the face of the team.

    He has to grow, of course, mature, get stronger this summer, play more with his back to the basket, be more engaged and responsible in help defence, show more leadership and not drop his head as much when shots arenít dropping. He can and heíll be expected because a lot will be expected of Bargnani.

    The Raptors will exhaust all options in re-signing Amir Johnson, will leave no stone unturned in ridding themselves of Turkoglu, but they must somehow bring in a veteran front-court presence to complement Bargnani.

    The torch will soon be passed from Boshís hands to Bargnani.

    How Bargnani goes will determine what inroads the Raptors will make this coming season
    a pretty thought out and well witten article from the sun.

    it's bargnani's time to shine, will he show up?

    http://www.torontosun.com/sports/bas.../14523631.html
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  2. #2
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I personally don't think he can carry a team to success as the franchise guy any more than Bosh could. I think this new era beginning will have to resemble more of what the Pistons did, relying on a bunch of guys working together to reach a goal as opposed to a bunch of guys serving a star to reach a goal. I'm fine with it but people need to wake up and stop setting unrealistic expectations on a guy who has done nothing to indicate he can live up to them.

    The future is collectively in the hands of Bargnani, DeRozan and Davis, with others supporting their quest. Just one of them breaking through won't be enough.

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    I think Bargnani's ceiling is as a 2nd option on offence and, unfortunately, as someone who will always need his teammates to bail him out defensively. He might get marginally better defensively next year but I just can't see him thriving as a #1 option offensively. He's a spot-up shooter with an ability to drive if 1) his defender is slower than him (i.e. a 5 more often than a 4 in the current NBA) and 2) the opposition isn't clogging the paint (which they generally weren't when they had Chris Bosh to worry about). Oh, and if you thought Chris Bosh had trouble setting up teammates, look at Bargnani's assist #'s. While I think Bargnani is reasonably tough mentally (although maybe he's just disinterested), I don't think he's got the skills to be a #1 guy. Might not even be a #2 considering his defensive problems.

    Long story short, this team needs to find a #1 guy on offence. I think that means they need to look in the lottery for the next few years.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    To me, much of the Raps future with the core as it is depends on chemistry to create that value-added, or 2+2=5 kinda deal. If Derozan, Weems, Johnson and Bargnani can not only get comfortable playing with each other, but really enjoy it, then there are a lot of complimentary skills that this core posses that can really add up to make the team play a lot better on the court than they look like on paper. Essentially, the reverse of what we've been hearing the last few years about how "on paper, this is a 50 win team."

    Add Davis to the mix and we get a frontcourt axis that can grow to be dominant in the not too distant future. How this all goes down for success in the Bargnani-era is a getting a scoring 3 and a defensive and distributive point who can knock down the open J and who really understands the game of basketball. Spreading it around, playing as a team, and being built collectively around individual strengths and weaknesses is how the "Bargnani-era" should look. In this scenario there are no true #1 options, but 3-4 players who can go off a rack up the points in a given game, the rest understanding the flow of the game and playing their role, all with an eye for defense.
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 03:46 PM. Reason: better

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    yeah the idea about surrounding bargnani with defensive players to make his weak defense seam less weak doesnt make sense. Obviously, with Davis and possibly Johnson playing the 4 Bargnani is going to be our center next year which again means that when players get into the paint which they will no matter how good your perimeter defense is well have Bargnani there to step out of the way and let them go uncontested. Bargnani should stop looking at Nowitzki's game and start looking at Gasol's game.

  7. #6
    Raptors Republic Rookie BomKeyzi's Avatar
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    When you're the #1 option on a team you're also the #1 focus of the defense.
    Without Bosh commanding a double team will Bargnani get so many open 3s?
    How long will it take for the "Il Mago" passing skills to show up?
    Has Bargs ever faced a double team in the NBA?
    How much will his rebounding improve?
    With so many questions it's hard to get excited about Bargnani as our franchise player

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    how many times do we have to go through with this.......theres no way in hell that bargs can be a #1 option on a teams that will have sucess, theres just no way......he couldnt even provide consistency last year by being the second option so why would he be better as a #1 with even more pressure on him.....all thats going to change is thats hes going to get more shots and who knows how the hell thats going to turn out and when your the number one guy on a team alot is also expected of you on defence and we all know what a stud bargs in at that end, jesus he was constanly lost on help defence all season so give me a break if were relying on bargs as our saviour, were in big trouble

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    he will not show up, there is 0 chance in it happening. Theres no point in even arguing this or giving reasons behind it, he has no IQ, never looks to pass, cannot pass out of a double team. I dont see how the team can succeed with him as the 1 option. he also sucks at defense. Essentially, were screwed.

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    Apollo said it wisely. This should not be about one star carrying the team, but rather a chance to build a team that plays together, shares the ball, and learns to trust and rely on each other. Liking each other would also help. Bargnani if handed a leading role will not do any worse than Bosh has for sure. Bosh has accomplished absolutely nothing here other than to build his own stats.

  11. #10
    Raptors Republic Rookie Babyface_killah's Avatar
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    How can Bargs even be a #1 option if he can't even create his own scoring chances? Can you you win playoff games with Bargnani being your second best player? Is Bargnani brutal rebounding and overall bad defensive game allow him to be even a starter unless the team is loaded?

    IMO he shouldn't be your first or even second option on offence, but he can be starter in the NBA if he can at least somewhat improve his terrible rebounding.

  12. #11
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I personally don't think he can carry a team to success as the franchise guy any more than Bosh could. I think this new era beginning will have to resemble more of what the Pistons did, relying on a bunch of guys working together to reach a goal as opposed to a bunch of guys serving a star to reach a goal. I'm fine with it but people need to wake up and stop setting unrealistic expectations on a guy who has done nothing to indicate he can live up to them.

    The future is collectively in the hands of Bargnani, DeRozan and Davis, with others supporting their quest. Just one of them breaking through won't be enough.
    i have3 the same thoughts as you but also remember there will always be one guy who outshines all others and so to speak "leads" the team like with detroit they had a lot of good players, but, chauncey billups was their leader, as seen when he was traded.

    you could also look at that washington team, butler, jamison, arenas. even thought they never one anything they had 3 real good players on their team but arenas outshined them all and was the leader.

    the same thing i believe can be done with toronto maybe with bargnani outshining all others. the reason we couldn't do it with bosh is because he would get jealous. with bargnani i doubt he cares thus i think getting rid of bosh will help us to take that step forward.
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  13. #12
    Raptors Republic Rookie Babyface_killah's Avatar
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    Quote Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    Apollo said it wisely. This should not be about one star carrying the team, but rather a chance to build a team that plays together, shares the ball, and learns to trust and rely on each other. Liking each other would also help. Bargnani if handed a leading role will not do any worse than Bosh has for sure. Bosh has accomplished absolutely nothing here other than to build his own stats.
    Unlike Bosh, Bargnani cannot be go-to score, one 70% of his baskets are assisted and two he has terrible footwork so he won't be able to post up PFs or Cs. Bargnani at this point is who he is, a good shooter who can get hot at times but most of the time gives back whatever he scores with his rebounding and poor help defence. If he can improve on the boards and maybe learn how/when to give help defence than Bargnani will not hurt is team when he is on the floor.

    That to me isn't the blueprint for a leader on any basketball team.

  14. #13
    Raptors Republic Rookie Babyface_killah's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    i have3 the same thoughts as you but also remember there will always be one guy who outshines all others and so to speak "leads" the team like with detroit they had a lot of good players, but, chauncey billups was their leader, as seen when he was traded.

    you could also look at that washington team, butler, jamison, arenas. even thought they never one anything they had 3 real good players on their team but arenas outshined them all and was the leader.

    the same thing i believe can be done with toronto maybe with bargnani outshining all others. the reason we couldn't do it with bosh is because he would get jealous. with bargnani i doubt he cares thus i think getting rid of bosh will help us to take that step forward.
    So the reason Bargnani was extremely inconsistent, averaged 6 boards a game as 7 footer, and had one of the worst Defensive rating in the NBA was so Bosh wouldn't be jealous of him???? Or maybe Bargnani didn't out-shined anybody because he isn't good enough? I don't know I think the second option is more plausible.

  15. #14
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    Quote Babyface_killah wrote: View Post
    Unlike Bosh, Bargnani cannot be go-to score, one 70% of his baskets are assisted and two he has terrible footwork so he won't be able to post up PFs or Cs. Bargnani at this point is who he is, a good shooter who can get hot at times but most of the time gives back whatever he scores with his rebounding and poor help defence. If he can improve on the boards and maybe learn how/when to give help defence than Bargnani will not hurt is team when he is on the floor.

    That to me isn't the blueprint for a leader on any basketball team.
    Quote Babyface_killah wrote: View Post
    So the reason Bargnani was extremely inconsistent, averaged 6 boards a game as 7 footer, and had one of the worst Defensive rating in the NBA was so Bosh wouldn't be jealous of him???? Or maybe Bargnani didn't out-shined anybody because he isn't good enough? I don't know I think the second option is more plausible.
    i don't understand why you are still sticking up for Rupaul!? you are completely missing the point and arguing just for the sake of arguing.

    Now before your panties crawl any further up your ass let me explain. All i'm saying is if everything left in the artcle plays out bargnani is the player who has been with the raps the longest.

    it seems right to hand him the "franchise" tag, out of well obviousness as who else could we give it to? not saying he is the bosh type franchise player, but maybe he'll turn out to be.

    it'll be like okc where all those guys play their asses off but it's centred around one guy that earns his way and sticks out. in that case it's kevin durant who it will be for the raptors remains to be seen but it looks like it'll be bargnani before anybody else.

    I don't know how to explain it really. but, i'm not arguing with you. i hope this helps.
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    Quote blaze89 wrote: View Post
    how many times do we have to go through with this.......theres no way in hell that bargs can be a #1 option on a teams that will have sucess, theres just no way......he couldnt even provide consistency last year by being the second option so why would he be better as a #1 with even more pressure on him.....all thats going to change is thats hes going to get more shots and who knows how the hell thats going to turn out and when your the number one guy on a team alot is also expected of you on defence and we all know what a stud bargs in at that end, jesus he was constanly lost on help defence all season so give me a break if were relying on bargs as our saviour, were in big trouble
    Agreed 100%. When Bosh was out he had a chance and produced nothing. I hope he is not our number one option. Davis and Amir should be fun to watch next year.

  17. #16
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    Correctly or not, I have been of the opinion that Bargnani, because of cultural or his own personality or even the Euro system that he was in so long, was reticent about doing anything that smelled of usurping or upstaging all those senior to him on the team. This at the minimum would have included Bosh and Calderon. Team play and behaviour is of great importance in Euro sports and I think this has contributed to his play sometimes. btw, I also think he has been a lazy bitch sometimes.

    Now, with the v. real possibility of Bosh leaving, it will be real check time to determine if these "excuses" held any truth. So I look forward to having Bargs just play with passion and ballhog if necessary on both offense and defense. There shall be nothing else to hide behind. Of his talents there is no doubt. Just play...and dont roam except on set plays. A month (maybe 2 weeks) in I think we'll all know if he is ready to show if he has the "it" or at least some of the "it" to build upon.

    I also hope the coaching staff can define his role clearly (to play inside mostly) and hold him to it. If all this doesnt work BC has to bite the bullet ...again ...and relatively quickly so the team's growth not lose momentum.
    Last edited by Bendit; Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 06:44 PM.

  18. #17
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    To me, much of the Raps future with the core as it is depends on chemistry to create that value-added, or 2+2=5 kinda deal. If Derozan, Weems, Johnson and Bargnani can not only get comfortable playing with each other, but really enjoy it, then there are a lot of complimentary skills that this core posses that can really add up to make the team play a lot better on the court than they look like on paper. Essentially, the reverse of what we've been hearing the last few years about how "on paper, this is a 50 win team."

    Add Davis to the mix and we get a frontcourt axis that can grow to be dominant in the not too distant future. How this all goes down for success in the Bargnani-era is a getting a scoring 3 and a defensive and distributive point who can knock down the open J and who really understands the game of basketball. Spreading it around, playing as a team, and being built collectively around individual strengths and weaknesses is how the "Bargnani-era" should look. In this scenario there are no true #1 options, but 3-4 players who can go off a rack up the points in a given game, the rest understanding the flow of the game and playing their role, all with an eye for defense.
    So true. The best teams all have players that play beyond their value "on paper": Fisher with the Lakers, or Rondo and Perkins with the Celtics. It's not realistic under the salary cap rules to go out and get an All-NBA player at each and every position.

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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    it seems right to hand him the "franchise" tag, out of well obviousness as who else could we give it to? not saying he is the bosh type franchise player, but maybe he'll turn out to be.
    No, it doesn't seem right to hand him the "franchise" tag just because there's nobody else at the moment. If he wants it, he has to earn it. You don't make someone your "franchise" player just because he might grow into it. This is no different from when we felt Damon Stoudamire was our franchise player; when we traded him away, we didn't select the next best player to take over the mantle. Instead, we left a void there until Carter showed he could be the man.

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    Third or fourth option offensively + a major defensive liability + a large liability on the backboards

  21. #20
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    i have3 the same thoughts as you but also remember there will always be one guy who outshines all others and so to speak "leads" the team like with detroit they had a lot of good players, but, chauncey billups was their leader, as seen when he was traded.

    you could also look at that washington team, butler, jamison, arenas. even thought they never one anything they had 3 real good players on their team but arenas outshined them all and was the leader.

    the same thing i believe can be done with toronto maybe with bargnani outshining all others. the reason we couldn't do it with bosh is because he would get jealous. with bargnani i doubt he cares thus i think getting rid of bosh will help us to take that step forward.
    No doubt the Raptors will need a leader and anyone who has seen Bargnani play over the past couple years should realize he aint it. In terms of body language to his personality he's a follower, not a leader. And there's nothing wrong with that. Somebody else just needs to eventually step up and fill that role whether he be on the team now or later. DeRozan led USC well into the tourney in his one season in the NCAA. If he translates his skills and abilities to the NBA on a high level he can lead the Raptors. I am sure of this. The production just needs to be there first. Unless the Raptors land a strong, dominate individual in the off-season, you're looking at a headless lotto team for at least one season. If they land this person you're probably still looking at a lotto team this season.
    Last edited by Apollo; Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 09:25 PM.

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