View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3561
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Advanced Search will find it for you.

  2. #3562
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    Default Realistically...this is what to do next with Bargnani

    Bargs cant rebound or play defense adaquately for a starting centre. This is a fact.

    Some people want to ignore it because he is scoring 21 pts. Some people want to trade him for a bag of chips. I think these are both unrealistic extremes. You dont really just "dump" guys unless its for salary or the guy is a cancer in the locker room. (You might argue playing him when he sucks defensively sets a bad precedent like a "cancer", but my solution addresses this).

    The solution to Bargnani is: you tell him that this summer he works exclusively with a Big-Man coach. Next training camp he better come with SIGNIFICANT improvements on defensive rebounding and other fundamentals. If not, he comes in off the bench as a scorer.

    I think this is a perfect course of action - it addresses everything.

    BC should tell him there is no way they can keep starting him if he is one of the historically bad centres on one side of the ball. After this contract, that is realistically what he would be signed for by another team, but the Raps are going to be proactive about it. I dont know what you've been doing the past 5 years (ie. F'CK your national team) if you dont get it by now you're never going to get it. We're going to have to put you in your actual suited NBA role. Again people might argue that its already clear that he cant "get it" (I've started to feel that way) but again Im talking about realistic course of action here - you're not going to throw him on the bench tmrw. Let him average his 21/5 for the rest 30 games, Raps might get a 1st overall pick out of it anyway.

    Forget could've/would've/should've...This is the best course of action AS OF RIGHT NOW.

  3. #3563
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    Interesting thoughts. Should this go under Everything Bargnani?

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    nooooooo.....please dont bury it LOL

    Look at it as more of an "organizational" discussion.

  5. #3565
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    Based on past history, Bargnani actually plays worse when coming off the bench. I think it should be either he brings it every night or they move him... And they're at a time when they should be accessing where he's going in his development. Too me it looks like he's never going to defend or rebound at the level they need him to. He would be best suited next to a dominate center. It's more likely that he finds that player via a trade out of here than the Raptors being able to trade for one.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Based on past history, Bargnani actually plays worse when coming off the bench. I think it should be either he brings it every night or they move him... And they're at a time when they should be accessing where he's going in his development. Too me it looks like he's never going to defend or rebound at the level they need him to. He would be best suited next to a dominate center. It's more likely that he finds that player via a trade out of here than the Raptors being able to trade for one.
    Just imagine him beside Dwight Howard. Disgusting 1-2 punch.
    Not to mention that system is very much geared to his style of play.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Just imagine him beside Dwight Howard. Disgusting 1-2 punch.
    Not to mention that system is very much geared to his style of play.
    We should trade for Dwight Howard and hire Star Van Gundy.

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    Quote Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
    Bargs cant rebound or play defense adaquately for a starting centre. This is a fact.

    Some people want to ignore it because he is scoring 21 pts. Some people want to trade him for a bag of chips. I think these are both unrealistic extremes. You dont really just "dump" guys unless its for salary or the guy is a cancer in the locker room. (You might argue playing him when he sucks defensively sets a bad precedent like a "cancer", but my solution addresses this).

    The solution to Bargnani is: you tell him that this summer he works exclusively with a Big-Man coach. Next training camp he better come with SIGNIFICANT improvements on defensive rebounding and other fundamentals. If not, he comes in off the bench as a scorer.

    I think this is a perfect course of action - it addresses everything.

    BC should tell him there is no way they can keep starting him if he is one of the historically bad centres on one side of the ball. After this contract, that is realistically what he would be signed for by another team, but the Raps are going to be proactive about it. I dont know what you've been doing the past 5 years (ie. F'CK your national team) if you dont get it by now you're never going to get it. We're going to have to put you in your actual suited NBA role. Again people might argue that its already clear that he cant "get it" (I've started to feel that way) but again Im talking about realistic course of action here - you're not going to throw him on the bench tmrw. Let him average his 21/5 for the rest 30 games, Raps might get a 1st overall pick out of it anyway.

    Forget could've/would've/should've...This is the best course of action AS OF RIGHT NOW.
    I agree that ignoring his deficiencies and wanting to trade him for nothing are two extremes that are a little ridiculous. HOWEVER, I don't see how yet another summer is going to help him when he's already had four of them and we've seen no improvement.



    By sending him to the bench, which is exactly what is going to happen, you're paying a bench player who can't play defense or rebound $9 million. That pretty much kills his trade value. The logical thing to do would be to trade him while his value is about as high as it's going to get. His stats are overinflated because he plays on a bad team and plays too many minutes. Trade him this summer for something of value and be rid of him. His trade value is far higher than his value to the team.

    Of course, if he had been traded this past summer, like I kept saying, none of this would have been necessary. Of course, I was a hater whose opinion didn't matter. The fact that I was right was irrelevant.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    We should trade for Dwight Howard and hire Star Van Gundy.
    Lets trade for John Wall and D Wade too

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Lets trade for John Wall and D Wade too
    Depth Chart:
    John Wall, Jarryd Bayless
    Dwyane Wade, Barbosa
    Demar, Sonny
    Andrea, Amir
    Dwight, Ed.

    Oh my that would be amazing. Why hasn't Colangelo thought of this?! Let's call him!

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Just imagine him beside Dwight Howard. Disgusting 1-2 punch.
    Not to mention that system is very much geared to his style of play.
    Orlando won't make it to the Finals because they are no longer the defensive team they were before the trade. Dwight Howard is a great defensive player, but you can't surround him with crappy defenders and expect him to make of for them. Bargnani would still be a liability on defense. Teams would simply isolate Bargnani like they do now. Unless the Magic intend to play strictly zone, which is probably not a good idea, Howard would have to constantly leave his man to help Bargnani, leaving his man open.

    Playing beside Howard would obviously help Bargnani, but he's a liability no matter who he plays beside.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Of course, if he had been traded this past summer, like I kept saying, none of this would have been necessary. Of course, I was a hater whose opinion didn't matter. The fact that I was right was irrelevant.
    And how would they have been better off trading him last summer than this summer? They had to try him out in the role he's played this year. They've seen it through now. This summer is a far better time to trade the guy. Inflated stats, unique skill set and great size. I think he's more marketable now to a team looking for extra scoring punch and a new dynamic.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    And how would they have been better off trading him last summer than this summer? They had to try him out in the role he's played this year. They've seen it through now. This summer is a far better time to trade the guy. Inflated stats, unique skill set and great size. I think he's more marketable now to a team looking for extra scoring punch and a new dynamic.
    Last summer his potential was still a bit unknown. My biggest fear, and what has basically happened, is that his fatal flaws have been exposed badly. Just look at the forum. Last summer, there were still some that thought he could become a decent rebounder and defender. Does ANYONE really see that happening now?

    This past summer, you knew he could score. I mean, he's only scoring 4 ppg more, but on 4 more shots. His efficiency has gone down.

    With players like Bargnani, the shine of the "if only" potential has more trade value than his actual game.
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  14. #3574
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    I'm going to have disagree with you. His efficiency has gone down because he's now the guy teams primarily focus on and there is no one on the team to take a little heat off him like he could do for Bosh. Any team trading for him is looking for extra scoring punch and to add a new dynamic to their team. They would not be looking for him to be their franchise center piece. Last summer he would have been still viewed as a complementary piece, a side kick. You are looking at the basic stats but there is a lot more going on. He is one of the most skilled big men in the league. He can score from anywhere. His offensive game has taken a step forward every year and this season is no different. He has moved his game in closer to the bucket, taking less threes and getting to the rim more. Without Bargnani the offense would be absolutely horrendous. As in pathetic, bottom of the league. I think you need to look beyond the stats because you are clearly missing how much Bargnani affects the offense even when he's not holding the ball.

  15. #3575
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I'm going to have disagree with you. His efficiency has gone down because he's now the guy teams primarily focus on and there is no one on the team to take a little heat off him like he could do for Bosh. Any team trading for him is looking for extra scoring punch and to add a new dynamic to their team. They would not be looking for him to be their franchise center piece. Last summer he would have been still viewed as a complementary piece, a side kick. You are looking at the basic stats but there is a lot more going on. He is one of the most skilled big men in the league. He can score from anywhere. His offensive game has taken a step forward every year and this season is no different. He has moved his game in closer to the bucket, taking less threes and getting to the rim more. Without Bargnani the offense would be absolutely horrendous. As in pathetic, bottom of the league. I think you need to look beyond the stats because you are clearly missing how much Bargnani affects the offense even when he's not holding the ball.
    His fatal flaws have absolutely nothing to do with his offense. I agree that his offense has improved, but the fact is he's never going to be a top ten scorer in the league. Not without taking 30 spg. That has become pretty evident this season. And I have no doubt he has a very positive effect on the offense.

    Unfortunately, what has been exposed this year is that his positive effect on the offense is negated by his problems on the defensive end and on the boards. As I said, not even his fans argue whether or not he's a half decent defensive player or rebounder anymore. That speaks volumes.

    The fact is that it's become fully apparent this season that he can never be a 30 mpg player on a contender because he hurts you so much for half the time he's out there.
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    Quote Tim W.;64635B wrote:
    By sending him to the bench, which is exactly what is going to happen, you're paying a bench player who can't play defense or rebound $9 million. That pretty much kills his trade value. The logical thing to do would be to trade him while his value is about as high as it's going to get. His stats are overinflated because he plays on a bad team and plays too many minutes. Trade him this summer for something of value and be rid of him. His trade value is far higher than his value to the team.
    Yeah, well if he ends up coming off the bench, he'll join the long list of NBA players that are overpaid, not that big a deal. Overall, the worst thing will have been that the Raps had the 1st overall pick in a year where there was no superstar. Not that they ended up paying him $9 million instead of $5 million.

    Quote Tim W.;64635B wrote:
    Of course, if he had been traded this past summer, like I kept saying, none of this would have been necessary. Of course, I was a hater whose opinion didn't matter. The fact that I was right was irrelevant.
    Talking about trading Bargs is all guesswork because no one knows what BC ever got offered. IMO after Bargs 2nd season, his value was pretty much shot around the league. I dont think there was ever a point you were going to get an exceptional young player for him. Since then, it has made as much sense to hold on to him and hope he puts it together, rather than dumping him for nothing.

    But again that gets back into could've/would've/should've. Seriously, there's a lot of things the Raps could have done differently the last 5 years.

    Point is AS OF NOW, TODAY, what is going to happen with Bargs? Anyone familiar with the whole picture of the organization has to know that he was going to get started this year, and its not going to change at this point in the season unless due to injury.

    Realistically, next training camp he wont be guaranteed starter's minutes. And if he is the same player, he'll be a rotational big man, which is then probably the role he'll take for the rest of his career.

    And so will be the story of a big lanky kid from Rome, who made it to the NBA and played for the Toronto Raptors.....

  17. #3577
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I agree that ignoring his deficiencies and wanting to trade him for nothing are two extremes that are a little ridiculous. HOWEVER, I don't see how yet another summer is going to help him when he's already had four of them and we've seen no improvement.
    Also I agree that I dont see how its now going to click this summer, but at the season-end interviews they're not going to say "you're hopeless, you're coming off the bench next summer" LOL. They're going to say "work with a big man coach" and next year "you're not guaranteed starter's minutes"......because you are a F'CKN weird backwards player (no they wont add that last part).

    Its weird but I dont think he has actually spent a whole summer with a Big Man Coach though....correct me if I am wrong. IMO too much damn time with the damn Italian National Team dammit
    Last edited by Ruuuuu; Thu Feb 10th, 2011 at 10:47 PM.

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    Quote Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
    Yeah, well if he ends up coming off the bench, he'll join the long list of NBA players that are overpaid, not that big a deal. Overall, the worst thing will have been that the Raps had the 1st overall pick in a year where there was no superstar. Not that they ended up paying him $9 million instead of $5 million.
    If a $9 million bench player isn't a big deal, tell that to all the Raptor fans who were clamouring for Calderon to be traded for nothing because didn't want a backup PG making $9 million. Or those who thought Amir was vastly overpaid when they thought he was making $7 million a season.

    And the NBA economy has changed. A few years ago, a guy like Amir probably would have made twice as much because he's an athletic big man who can defend, rebound and score around the basket. He made $3 million a year with his previous contract despite barely even playing. That's the same that Glen Davis is making this year.

    Quote Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
    Talking about trading Bargs is all guesswork because no one knows what BC ever got offered. IMO after Bargs 2nd season, his value was pretty much shot around the league. I dont think there was ever a point you were going to get an exceptional young player for him. Since then, it has made as much sense to hold on to him and hope he puts it together, rather than dumping him for nothing.

    But again that gets back into could've/would've/should've. Seriously, there's a lot of things the Raps could have done differently the last 5 years.

    Point is AS OF NOW, TODAY, what is going to happen with Bargs? Anyone familiar with the whole picture of the organization has to know that he was going to get started this year, and its not going to change at this point in the season unless due to injury.

    Realistically, next training camp he wont be guaranteed starter's minutes. And if he is the same player, he'll be a rotational big man, which is then probably the role he'll take for the rest of his career.

    And so will be the story of a big lanky kid from Rome, who made it to the NBA and played for the Toronto Raptors.....
    Yes, Bargnani's trade value is obviously guesswork, but to say it was shot after his second year I think is vastly underestimating the desire many GMs have for a player like Bargnani. If everyone thought like the Spurs, guys like Amare Stoudemire (big men who don't play defense) would be making the MLE instead of the max, and Don Nelson would never have been given a job after his first go around with Golden State, or even with Milwaukee. Obviously you and I don't value Bargnani much, but I don't value a lot of players who are apparently coveted around the league.

    Now, obviously last summer has come and gone, but my point is that the longer you keep Bargnani, the less trade value he has. This summer he has to go. No ands, ifs, or buts. He's literally a liability on the team and giving him minutes simply limits the potential of the team because of his fatal flaws.

    While I don't think Bargnani has to be given away for nothing, if push came to shove, I'd rather dump him for nothing than keep him and continue this charade that's become the "what if Bargnani puts it all together" show. The team needs to move in another direction and that direction does not include a big man who can defend or rebound.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I'm going to have disagree with you. His efficiency has gone down because he's now the guy teams primarily focus on and there is no one on the team to take a little heat off him like he could do for Bosh. Any team trading for him is looking for extra scoring punch and to add a new dynamic to their team. They would not be looking for him to be their franchise center piece. Last summer he would have been still viewed as a complementary piece, a side kick. You are looking at the basic stats but there is a lot more going on. He is one of the most skilled big men in the league. He can score from anywhere. His offensive game has taken a step forward every year and this season is no different. He has moved his game in closer to the bucket, taking less threes and getting to the rim more. Without Bargnani the offense would be absolutely horrendous. As in pathetic, bottom of the league. I think you need to look beyond the stats because you are clearly missing how much Bargnani affects the offense even when he's not holding the ball.
    This is why I think Bargnani will be an important part of the Raptors in years to come. Just imagine, we manage to draft a guy like Irving. DeRozan fulfilling his potential, and Ed Davis too. Hopefully, we can get multiple picks in the 15-20 range, and get a good, scoring swingman, or a good defensive center. And with Bargnani off the bench, he could be unstoppable. Causing problems to defenses, and scoring more efficiently IMO because he won't have long stretches on the floor, giving him more energy. Right now we can't do this, as we have no one that can start in his place, but the future, a guy like Bargnani off the bench can be a great thing. No other big-man in the league has his skill-set.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If a $9 million bench player isn't a big deal, tell that to all the Raptor fans who were clamouring for Calderon to be traded for nothing because didn't want a backup PG making $9 million. Or those who thought Amir was vastly overpaid when they thought he was making $7 million a season.

    And the NBA economy has changed. A few years ago, a guy like Amir probably would have made twice as much because he's an athletic big man who can defend, rebound and score around the basket. He made $3 million a year with his previous contract despite barely even playing. That's the same that Glen Davis is making this year.
    Im talking about the big picture here. If you consider the whole Bargnani saga if it indeed plays out with him becoming a scorer off the bench in the next couple of years....the main things we will look back and remember are things like: Raps had a 1st overall pick in a weak draft, and Bargs was this uniquely talented player who just never could get the fundaments of playing as a big man. These will be the "tragedies". Not that in the middle somewhere, he was signed to a $9 million dollar contract, instead of $5 million.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Yes, Bargnani's trade value is obviously guesswork, but to say it was shot after his second year I think is vastly underestimating the desire many GMs have for a player like Bargnani. If everyone thought like the Spurs, guys like Amare Stoudemire (big men who don't play defense) would be making the MLE instead of the max, and Don Nelson would never have been given a job after his first go around with Golden State, or even with Milwaukee. Obviously you and I don't value Bargnani much, but I don't value a lot of players who are apparently coveted around the league.

    Now, obviously last summer has come and gone, but my point is that the longer you keep Bargnani, the less trade value he has. This summer he has to go. No ands, ifs, or buts. He's literally a liability on the team and giving him minutes simply limits the potential of the team because of his fatal flaws.

    While I don't think Bargnani has to be given away for nothing, if push came to shove, I'd rather dump him for nothing than keep him and continue this charade that's become the "what if Bargnani puts it all together" show. The team needs to move in another direction and that direction does not include a big man who can defend or rebound.
    I disagree with you here. I dont think he is going to be dumped unless he becomes a "cancer" (which could possibly happen if he will not accept a reduced role at any cost - but I doubt it).

    And I just dont think there will be any worthwhile trade offers in summer. You cant get a better young player for him, and you cant get a top 5 pick. What are you going to trade him for? The only people who are given away are "salary dumps" and "cancers".

    The natural progression of this is coming off the bench heading into next season.

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