View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5341
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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    I'm assuming you're against Motiejunas as the number 5 overall??!
    You've no idea how against it I am. Well, maybe you do.
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  2. #5342
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I have followed basketball for years, but have not had tons of direct exposure to good coaching, so I have a questions I want to throw out there.

    In games when Bargnani played in the post and hit his first few shots, I found that he was very effective, full of confidence and seemed more dialed in on the defensive end (at least his man-2-man d). I hated games where he played on the perimeter from the start and relied on long jump shots, because if he didn't start the game hot, he was essentially worthless (or needed 20 shots to make 20 pts).

    Personally, I always felt that more of the blame should have fallen to Triano, rather than Bargs, because I assumed he played out at the perimeter as part of the set plays. I would love to see a coach come in that demands he establish himself as an inside offensive presence more consistently (having some decent 3pt threats would help).

    That is one of the reasons I lean towards keeping Bargs, since I feel if he is used properly and gets his ass kicked and benched when he doesn't play up to expectations on both ends of the court, he could be a real asset. I know Smitch attempted this, but as a young kid who was just drafted 1st overall, coming to a new league in a new country, I somewhat understand why BC wanted him treated with kid-gloves back then. He is now experienced, understands the NBA and I feel that BC is more than ready to take those kid-gloves off whatever hard-ass defensive minded coach they bring in.

    My question is does my logic make sense? Is it fair to assume that a new coach could force him to play more inside on the offensive end, by drawing up more plays that way and threatening a short leash if he voluntarily drifts outside too much? Or are offenses less constructed and more fluid, meaning plays didn't put him out there, just his natural instinct/preferences did???
    I've never bought blaming the coach for the weaknesses of the player. It's an excuse. And what Bargnani did on offense is probably the least of his problems. It was offense that was his strength, so whether he played more outside or inside is completely besides the point. Unless Triano threatened him in order to prevent him from rebounding and playing defense, then the blame MUST be on Bargnani. If a player is in the league 5 years and hasn't figured out the importance of a big man to rebound and play defense, then he's pretty much a lost cause. I find it astounding that people think a player needs a coach to tell him this. I was a teenager with barely any coaching when I figured that out. Bargnani is a 25 year old NBA player with nearly 10 years of playing professionally.
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  3. #5343
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've never bought blaming the coach for the weaknesses of the player. It's an excuse. And what Bargnani did on offense is probably the least of his problems. It was offense that was his strength, so whether he played more outside or inside is completely besides the point. Unless Triano threatened him in order to prevent him from rebounding and playing defense, then the blame MUST be on Bargnani. If a player is in the league 5 years and hasn't figured out the importance of a big man to rebound and play defense, then he's pretty much a lost cause. I find it astounding that people think a player needs a coach to tell him this. I was a teenager with barely any coaching when I figured that out. Bargnani is a 25 year old NBA player with nearly 10 years of playing professionally.
    I think a coach deserves at least some praise/blame for the way a player is utilized. I can't believe that Bargnani played on the perimeter just because that's where he wanted to be... and lots of people (yourself included) have argued that Bargnani's offense is a write-off because how inefficient he is offensively most nights. I was just trying to think outside the box as far as they typical Bargnani threads, by wondering aloud how to take advantage of his offensive skills more efficiently.

    I agree that his defense and rebounding also need to improve, but he's shown he can be a good man defender when his head is in the game and his effort is there. Again, I think the right coach has the potential to improve his defense/rebounding, through motivation and discipline - whether it's with the Raptors or another team. He's only going to be 26 next season and many players show vast improvements in various aspects of their game after being in the league for 5 seasons and being in their late 20s... I am just not as quick to write him off as most people, because I do think there is loads of room for improvement still, at both ends of the court and I think the right coach would play a big role in bringing about the improvements.

    Again, time will tell whether he gets the chance to improve and discover his full potential in Toronto or some other NBA city... I was simply addressing the question posed in the thread.

  4. #5344
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    I've never had a big problem with Bargnani's offense. I don't think he's an elite scorer, but I've never complained about him shooting so much from the perimeter, that's for sure. And I certainly don't think his offense is a write-off because he's not efficient. He's not THAT inefficient.

    The reason I think his offense is a write=off is because he gives up so many point on the other end of the court. It's his defense and rebounding I have a problem with. His offense is his strong suit.

    And the guys who usually end up making the improvements you're talking about usually have either not been able to get the consistent minutes, or struggled with injuries. Bargnani has never had a major injury or missed a long period of time due to injury, and he's averaged 30 mpg over his career. This isn't a guy who simply hasn't been given a chance.

    Could a coach motivate Bargnani to improve his defense and rebounding? It's possible, but unlikely. At least significantly. What you're expecting is for Bargnani to basically change who he is, and a coach isn't going to be able to do that. It's not as if Bargnani doesn't know what he has to do. It's not that he's not physically capable of doing it. It's that he simply doesn't seem to have the mental skills to be able to do it. A coach can motivate you, but he's not going to change who you are.

    As for his man-to-man defense, it's been vastly overrated. He's been decent against specific types of players in specific situation, but he's never shown the acumen to be able to defend even adequately on a consistent basis.

    The main reason I want Bargnani off the Raptors is that a big man who needs a kick in the pants to do such basic things as defend and rebound, then he's simply not a winner. The guys who usually end up with rings, by the end of their career, are the types of guys that don't need to be asked or cajoled into doing the things that help you win. Ed Davis is that type of player. Same with Amir Johnson. DeRozan may or may not, but he works as hard or harder than anyone on the team, so that tells me he's headed in the right direction. In five years in the NBA, it's been obvious to everyone what Bargnani need to work on and in 5 years, he's no better a rebounder and no better a defender. That tells me everything.
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  5. #5345
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    If Bargnani isn't traded... I imagine its because he has little to no trade value. I know alot of people think well anyone can be traded... the question is for how much. I just don't buy that he is easily sold to another GM, especially without taking back something we don't want/need either.

    Is this BC's fault? Yes. He's the one who drafted him, changed coaches for him, and gave him that awful extension. But its also Bargnani's for not trying, for not putting in an effort and for not willing to go beyond his comfort zone. I'm sorry but after 5 years of pro ball if he can't tell he has to do more, he's a god damn idiot.

    Don't want this team spend 10 mil on a bench player which will likely only drop his value lower.

    His time in Toronto is over. He has got to go. The culture and philosophy need to change.

  6. #5346
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    He's not going anywhere. BC is watching the NBA Finals and is salivating over the fact that there's an assistant coach over there that can "hide" the defensive flaws of Dirk and thinks he can do the same for Andrea. He's thinking Andrea can be clutch in the fourth quarter by driving past the likes of Bosh to win the games in the final seconds. BC's thinking, "Why not?".
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  7. #5347
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    I hope Bargnani stays and he's paired up with Ed Davis for extended minutes to evaluate how effective this combination could be in 2012-13 and beyond.

    Why 2012-13 and not this year? Because I believe both players would have to learn a new defensive role and it will take some time, especially on Bargnani's part, to learn the new schemes. I think he can though as he learned to become the team's number one scoring option without a significant drop-off in (offensive) effectiveness.

    I believe Amir Johnson has the tool set to replace either of them without having to adjust the schemes much, a very good thing in my opinion.

    And if it's a failed experiment? Then trade Bargnani at the trade deadline or in Summer 2012. There's always a market for a big man who poses serious match-up problems on the offensive end.

  8. #5348
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    How is this not merged with the Bargnani thread?

    Mods must be sleeping in after a party night!

  9. #5349
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    He's not going anywhere. BC is watching the NBA Finals and is salivating over the fact that there's an assistant coach over there that can "hide" the defensive flaws of Dirk and thinks he can do the same for Andrea. He's thinking Andrea can be clutch in the fourth quarter by driving past the likes of Bosh to win the games in the final seconds. BC's thinking, "Why not?".

    If that is what he is thinking he should put the pipe down.


    Andrea has never been clutch, he just does not care. Even when you take away his defensive faults, and lack of rebounding, for the amount of shots he hoists, there has been almost zero clutch baskets.

    He gets gased at the end of games and plays at 70%. All players do, but some have that hunger inside that gives them the added energy, Andrea starts off great and just fades. He doesn't seem to care much about the score, or swings or situations where a player can come up big. In those moments, we look at Derozan, Amir Johnson, Barbosa... Andrea is just not interested in coming up big.

    He used to posterize people in the first 5 minutes of the game. Some nice drives, a fresh Andrea has lots of options with the ball. A tierd Andrea, just floats watches and takes threes. The problem is that he will never put in the work outside of basketball that he needs to be a Dirk. Dirk works hard, Andrea is lazy.

    Casey will not be able to change that. He tuned out Sam, and this last year he tuned out the fans. I don't think we need to fool another coach with his potential, Casey too might find false hope in his tool set, its not going to be good for our club if he does. We have been down this path and we know where it leads. 5 years, 2 different coaches and Andrea is still looking at clouds for funny shapes during interviews.
    Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 01:48 PM.

  10. #5350
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    He's not going anywhere. BC is watching the NBA Finals and is salivating over the fact that there's an assistant coach over there that can "hide" the defensive flaws of Dirk and thinks he can do the same for Andrea. He's thinking Andrea can be clutch in the fourth quarter by driving past the likes of Bosh to win the games in the final seconds. BC's thinking, "Why not?".
    The problem with that thought is that Dirk actually isn't a bad defensive player. He struggled his first couple of seasons, but at his worst he was never as bad as Bargnani is after 5 seasons.
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  11. #5351
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I hope Bargnani stays and he's paired up with Ed Davis for extended minutes to evaluate how effective this combination could be in 2012-13 and beyond.

    Why 2012-13 and not this year? Because I believe both players would have to learn a new defensive role and it will take some time, especially on Bargnani's part, to learn the new schemes. I think he can though as he learned to become the team's number one scoring option without a significant drop-off in (offensive) effectiveness.

    I believe Amir Johnson has the tool set to replace either of them without having to adjust the schemes much, a very good thing in my opinion.

    And if it's a failed experiment? Then trade Bargnani at the trade deadline or in Summer 2012. There's always a market for a big man who poses serious match-up problems on the offensive end.
    Why trade him next year? Why not make up another reason Bargnani can finally "get it" and give him yet another year reprieve? Maybe in 2013 you can move him to SF, which might even give him two more years of excuses before you have to trade him. It's not like his trade value will go down. Everyone knows that a player's trade value goes up as he gets older and his weaknesses exposed more and more.
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  12. #5352
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    People also have to keep in mind, that the more we try and fail, the less he is worth. Right now there is still some potential that he has not had the right coach or been with the right players. I don't hold such hope, but many do and this can also play a positive role to his intrigue and value.


    We can't kick all the tires and then try to sell him as if he can reach potential elsewhere. We need to leave a little for the next guy if we are to use him as an asset. Tell them we kicked 3 tires, and 4th one is theirs. (I am good with 3)


    If he keeps sucking like this with a 3rd coach, its going to be hard to convince others, especially if Casey and Dirk were so good. (So there is also a downside to keeping him - personally I would like to cash out my chips)
    Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 03:58 PM.

  13. #5353
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Why trade him next year? Why not make up another reason Bargnani can finally "get it" and give him yet another year reprieve? Maybe in 2013 you can move him to SF, which might even give him two more years of excuses before you have to trade him. It's not like his trade value will go down. Everyone knows that a player's trade value goes up as he gets older and his weaknesses exposed more and more.
    I started to write a long response but then decided why bother?

    You're the great Tim W, the guy who knows better than everyone.

    (deleted comment)
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 04:57 PM. Reason: inappropriate comment

  14. #5354
    Raptors Republic Starter MyMomLovesMe's Avatar
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    I would not take it so personally. I usually like it when people disagree with me, it means I can have a followup post to further state my opinion. That is what makes discussion forums fun for me. Sometimes, I just run out of ammo, and actually learn to further shape and arrange my ideas so that they are stronger to argument. All this comes from disagreement and I have learned to crave it because opposite opinion strengthens my footing by making my hamster run faster or improves my knowledge by adapting to new ideas.

    So don't take it so personally. Hug men overtime, just kidding, you can take me to town on MyMomLovesMe too.
    Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 05:02 PM.

  15. #5355
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    Default The Problem with Bargnani??

    I have a theory of why Bargs is the Bargs we've seen in the past two seasons.
    There are two issues with him;
    - His lack of emotion, drive to strive.
    - His water weight, maybe its the pasta.

    The days when Bargs are more agile he was more effective in my opinion. If Bargs can lost some water weight and gain lean muscle like someone like Tyson Chandler, or Dwight then maybe Bargs can be an All Star Center.
    Thats just my theory.
    Last edited by e2thed; Tue Jun 14th, 2011 at 02:39 PM.

  16. #5356
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    How long was this thread up before it got thrown into the almost 3500 post, 175 page "Everything Bargnani" thread? 10 minutes?

    Seriously you guys can't atleast give this stuff a day? If his name comes up and boom... lets hide this.

    I understand not wanting a thousands threads all about Bargnani... but really, atleast give it some time.

  17. #5357
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    Water weight? This is fat weight. Lard.


  18. #5358
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    How long was this thread up before it got thrown into the almost 3500 post, 175 page "Everything Bargnani" thread? 10 minutes?

    Seriously you guys can't atleast give this stuff a day? If his name comes up and boom... lets hide this.

    I understand not wanting a thousands threads all about Bargnani... but really, atleast give it some time.
    The permanent link was left. By the time it gets to the bottom of the page, it will be a day or so. In the meantime, anytime a new post comes up in Everything Bargnani, it is highlighted.

  19. #5359
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    Quote e2thed wrote: View Post
    I have a theory of why Bargs is the Bargs we've seen in the past two seasons.
    There are two issues with him;
    - His lack of emotion, drive to strive.
    - His water weight, maybe its the pasta.

    The days when Bargs are more agile he was more effective in my opinion. If Bargs can lost some water weight and gain lean muscle like someone like Tyson Chandler, or Dwight then maybe Bargs can be an All Star Center.
    Thats just my theory.
    Then what is your theory of the Bargs we've seen over the last 5 years?
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  20. #5360
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    yea big boy needs to lose some weight.

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