I agree. Its a nice move, take it as it is.joey_hesketh wrote:
I agree. Its a nice move, take it as it is.
I know you are playing around a bit... but at the same time I think there is belief that there is some truth behind this (from the fan boys that is). Its why people who dislike his game are called haters, and bias, and whatever other names one wants to use.
I'd be willing to bet fans could be all about him again (and I think the majority were early in his career and gave him the benifit of the doubt even with a sub par rookie year and an abysmal 2nd year), IF he ever could put together consistency and effort. Even from what I've read about him in this Euroleague tournament he hasn't shown that effort or consistency... and when he was actually challenged he faltered.
I'd bet Tim (or almost any other 'hater' for that matter... not to single out Tim sorry) would compliment/talk about Bargnani's accolades if Bargs ever actually 'got it together'. But I also think the expectations that that will ever happen flew out the window this past season.
I 100% agree with that. I personally do not need Bargnani to be an all-star, or even a starter. The only thing I'm looking from him is consistency. And he's faltered at that for 5 years now. The guy just some times doesn't look like he wants to be out there. He seems to mope around and seems uninterested. I understand a couple of games throughout the year, but this seems to be the case every other game. We have no idea which Bargnani will show up - and that is very irritating, especially since he makes so much money. Youtube clips always seem to show when he gives a damn, but its usually for just one play, and its usually on offense. If the guy had 20 rebounds in one game it would be outstanding and the achievement should be praised. But if he then averages 3-4 rebounds for the next 5 or 10 games, its pathetic - and that's what we've seen in the last 5 years.
By the way, when is this thread getting merged?
I think everybody came to the conclusion long ago that Bargnani is a bad/ horrible defender and rebounder, i for one, still doesnt think so, below average, yes, but not horrible. Sometimes i think he plays decent D, sometimes he rebounds well. And sometimes not so much. For me, a hater, is somebody who constantly barrages the person with negativity, and has closed his/her mind on further improvement. Im not putting any poster on this category seriously, i just use it as a punchline.
I think the main difference with my belief on Bargnani with others posters, is that i dont think Bargnani is born defense or rebounding incapable. I think he just never received the proper training for a big man. Be it be his own accord or by the trainers, i dont think it was enough for him to get over to the next level. Do i blame him? a little bit, but i put this on management and staff. Sure its easy to say that if he really wanted to improve then he should have put in the work. That is true, but mind you, these guys are controlled by the coaching staff and trainers. Do you honestly think that these coaches and trainers push him enough everyday on defense and rebounding and he tell them he doesnt want to do it because he's lazy? i dont think so. I dont think he has that much cred as a Raptor. My feeling is, and again, this is pure assumption, is that they drafted him knowing he was a pure scorer with the thought of pairing him with a rebounder like Bosh and now theyre saying he's an enigma coz he doesnt know how or when to rebound and defend. Ive always thought that if the Raptors got a veteran big man to help Bargnani work on his game (like how Howard worked/works with Ewing) then he will definitely show some improvement on defense and rebounding.
He is partially to be blamed for his inadequacies, but not entirely.
Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Sep 6th, 2011 at 05:04 PM.
I'd change that around and say that he is mostly to be blamed for his inadequacies. Maybe not entirely but you do realize that Bargnani is a man, and not a child. If he had a deficiency and wanted to blame his upbringing, then shouldn't he go out and hire some coach or ask the Raptors to bring in someone to help him out? Lebron went to Hakeem this offseason. Why couldn't Bargnani go find someone himself in the offseason?
Why should the Raptors be spoon feeding him, when he can go out and do it himself? That's the problem I have with Bargnani. He doesn't seem to be a self-motivator. If I was struggling with a subject in school, instead of failing, I'd go find a tutor. I wouldn't have my parent or my teacher try and find one for me because it would be my responsibility to grow and become better.
The problem with Bargnani is that he's not motivated all the time, and I don't think you can teach motivation.
From this point onward, I wouldn't mind seeing Bargnani + fillers get traded for a legit young PG + role players.
I promose this trade Andrea Bargnani + Jerryd Bayless + James Johnson to Pacers
Pacers give us Roy Hibbert + George Hill + James Posey (waived) + 2012 1st round pick (top 15) where we can get another SF in Terrence Jones by drafting either H.Barnes or Q.Miller
Our Lineups will be
Hill/Calderon/D-League PG
DeRozan/Leandro Barbosa/S.Weems
H.Barnes/L.Kleiza/T.Jones
E.Davis/A.Johnson/J.Dorsey
R.Hibbert/J.Valanciunas/S.Alabi
I think that this is exactly it more than anything thing else. There is only so much a team/coach/organization can do to entice someone to try and improve. Eventually it comes down to the individual wanting to, and trying to.
Blaming the team is a cop out... especially when there are other players who have showed the willingness to put in 100% night in and night out, to try and improve their game, to do the things that others won't. If it was on the organization, then why does Derozan seem to be the polar opposite of Bargnani? Or Jose?
Smitch, Jay and PJ never hid their dislike for Bargnani's lack of D and rebounding and Bargnani himself has said he's 'lazy'. So yes I do believe it.these guys are controlled by the coaching staff and trainers. Do you honestly think that these coaches and trainers push him enough everyday on defense and rebounding and he tell them he doesnt want to do it because he's lazy
Maybe not with the organization as a while, but I think he had that much 'cred' with BC. Whether thats because BC saw/expected more out of him than he got, or because BC was to arrogant to accept his #1 pick has been in 'bust'-like territory I'm not sure. But Bargs had enough 'cred' to get a coach fired and have a yes man coach to replace him (that would give minutes without accountability), get a big pay day without earning it and getting franchise player-like treatment. Is it that hard to believe that his lack of effort has simply been accepted by BC and therefore entitled to him?I dont think he has that much cred as a Raptor
There is no reason why he couldn't or shouldn't try and improve even without the organizations help IF he actually wanted to improve in area's we all know he needs to. I can agree that this organization seems to have been much to easy on him for the last 3 years... but he still has the responsibility himself, and that responsibility to himself is much greater than the teams responsibility to him.
If your boss at work ever said 'you aren't working hard enough', what do you think he would say if you responded with 'well its not my fault you aren't motivating me well enough'? I'm sure he'd motivated you with a severence package 5 minutes later.
I don't hate the trade, but I think the last the the Raptors need is another young big man to add to the logjam. Having four good, young big men might seem like a good idea, but there simply aren't enough minutes to go around and it doesn't generally create a good atmosphere.
And while George Hill was good on the Spurs, he was in the perfect situation, there. He didn't need to pass the ball because of the system, as well as being on the court with Ginobili and Duncan, both of whom are great passers. Just look at Hill's Per 36 assist stats. He's never averaged even 4 apg. And the Raptors desperately need a PG who will make those around him better since, they don't have a great passer on the roster outside of Calderon.
And having two rookie SFs fighting for playing time is also not a good idea.
Other than that, I'm all for the trade!
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Just to add one thing. WHile it may be true that Bargnani never had a coach that seemed to be able to motivate him, the question begs to be asked, why do you want a player who is so difficult to motivate? If the idea is to win, then the best course of action is to acquire as many self starters as possible. It's hard enough to become a true contender, why do you want to handcuff yourself by making a difficult to motivate player such a big part of the team?
On a side note, I hope you weren't lumping Calderon in with Bargnani. Calderon has his faults, but lack of effort has never been one of them. Even on defense, he does try. He's just not very good at it (although better than many Raptor fans seem to give him credit for).
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fighting for playing time can be a very good thing. It creates competition which CAN bring out the best in players and be the best thing for the team. This is especially true with young players who have to earn their future contracts. It can also help create depth which is a huge boon when the inenvitable injuries happen. However, some players don't deal well with not getting what they expect and might sour them. Although I'd say thats an excellent way to weed out those players anyways.
I like the trade in general but I don't think there is a chance Indiana would pull the trigger on this trade though
I was lumping Calderon in with Derozan (ie. opposite of Bargnani)
I don't think I need to say this but I very much agree.
I agree lebron will get bombarded with questions of his finals performance
I've rarely seen it end well when two young players of similar skill level and age fight for the same position. It doesn't usually end up with a positive atmosphere and can cause some bad chemistry. The Amir/Davis situation is very unique and not one I would try and replicate. It's also a way to lower the trade value of a player you'll eventually have to trade. If you draft both Barnes and Jones, then when it's obvious that one of the players have won out for the position, they other player becomes tainted.
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Gotcha. I thought that might be the case, but I wasn't sure.
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I would become a fan of Bargnani's if he did three things:
1. Pulled down 9+ rebounds per game.
2. Made over half his shots.
3. Played solid help defense (e.g., gave out 2 hard fouls each game on people penetrating to the basket - but 3+ blocks per game would also count).
There is no need to interpret or excuse. He does those things consistently (on average) I am a fan. If he doesn't, I'm not.
Take his 36 point performance against Latvia. That came on 11/25 shooting. He missed 14 shots! I am tired of Bargnani missing baskets and wasting offensive opportunities. And that's not even talking defense.
If Bargnani pulled down 9+ rebounds, made over half his shots, and played solid help defense he'd be a perennial all-star and maybe even an MVP candidate :P Bargnani is going to be the player he is now, for his entire career. Either the Raptors try to make the most of him (scoring big off bench, special mismatch sub) or he gets traded OR he keeps on playing 36 minutes night in night out making fans go crazy with a 1/10 spectacular to horrid game ratio.
You literally said:
When the stats say Bargnani defended on the most possessions, even though that's without a minute count, one can be pretty sure that's not barely or almost exclusively. Agreed?
Possession count is when the play ends the possession, thus either a shot, a turnover or a foul (with or without freethrows). The minute count would be interesting, but it's pretty obivious that when someone defends on most possessions that won't be in 3 minutes. I'm not on vacation now, so I'm not going to do a minute count, but you are welcome to do so.
Wow, really? Again, I'm not a Bargnani fan (better say it every time) but he wasn't only 11/25, he also shot 15 (!), yes 15!! freethrows, making 12. He added 3 turnovers, so a rough calculation tells us that he had at least 1.09 points per possession. Now who in the NBA averages this? I think no-one, but for you it is not enough. Efficiency isn't just your shooting percentage otherwise someone like Jason Kidd, who shoots just a pinch over 40% for his career (and thus several seasons below 40%) would be in big big trouble.
Poor poor Bargnani if he gets called out for a performance like this.
Geez, people say I'M tough on Bargnani. People often ask me what numbers I'd be happy with Bargnani putting up, but that question seems to miss the point entirely. It's not about numbers.
Bargnani is never going to pull down 9+ rebounds a game, but neither are the majority of big men in the league. There are plenty of good big men that didn't pull down 9+ rebounds per 36 minutes, last season, including Bosh, Millsap, Amare, Aldridge, Marc Gasol and Dirk. Instead of demanding something unattainable, and really not necessary, I simply demand that he puts in an effort on the boards and works harder to prevent opposing players from grabbing boards.
And while Bargnani doesn't make half his shots, that's because he's a perimeter player. That's not going to change and it shouldn't because that's where his strength lies. Dirk has only shot more than 50% from the field twice in 13 years. Bosh has only done it twice in 8 years. Bargnani has a unique talent and skill, and in order to shoot more than 50% from the field he'd have to shoot more close to the basket, which pretty much negates the offensive advantage he has. I don't see the point in that.
I do agree that Bargnani has to play solid help defense, but again, you're bringing up numbers that are pretty arbitrary. 2 hard fouls are great, but you don't need to give hard fouls to play solid help defense. And Bargnani doesn't have the personality to start punishing people physically. He's not an enforcer or intimidator and asking him to be one is a little ridiculous. His role will never be as a stopper and lots of good big men in the league play good, solid help defense without laying people out. And the 3 bpg would put him among the league leaders. So you'd only be happy if he was among the league leaders in blocks? And blocks don't necessarily equal good defense. JaVale McGee is a poor defender, but a great shotblocker. On the other hand, neither Nene or Al Horford are great shotblockers, but are excellent defenders.
I'm as hard on Bargnani as anyone, but I'm not asking him to become a different player, which is what you seem to want. What I'd want from him is simply to improve on his weaknesses so he's not a liability half the time he's on the floor. I don't think even that's going to happen, since we have seen so little improvement in those areas in five years, but it sounds like you're saying that Bargnani would have to become an elite player in the league in order for you to like him. And I don't think that's fair. I'm simply asking him to have a positive impact on the court.
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I overstated a little, but I am also pretty sure that Bargnani defended Lopez for fewer minutes than both Amir and Davis. I don't have any statistical proof of that, but it was THE thing I focused on for most of the game because I didn't even think it was a good idea for Amir and Davis to be defending Lopez and felt that Bargnani should have defended him more (because he matches up better size-wise).
I'm certainly not going to do a minute count, but I don't believe for a minute that in 2 full games that there were only 29 offensive possessions for Lopez. Doesn't that seem a little odd to you?
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