Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Buddahfan]

Bargs is far from "terrible" on offense. He's just having a couple bad games.

Weren't you guys on about Amir after the first 4 games too? Now everyone is all quiet. You guys need to stop overreacting after every couple of games and wait till the end of the season before taking shots at someone.

I never said that Bargnani should be taken out of the starting lineup.

I said change the starting lineup.

I was thinking of another starter who needs to go to the end of the bench or get traded.

When Bargnani's "Rebounding Assistant" didn't play, Bargnani had nine rebounds.

There is no need to need for Bargnani to have a "Rebounding Assistant" starting with him.

[Mack North]

Bargs is far from "terrible" on offense. He's just having a couple bad games.

Weren't you guys on about Amir after the first 4 games too? Now everyone is all quiet. You guys need to stop overreacting after every couple of games and wait till the end of the season before taking shots at someone.

You didn't actually wait all season last year to take some shots at Hedo did you? It was kinda fun actually, as frustrating as it was at the time.

It's also now Barg's fifth season, the jury is out.

I'm pretty sure Buddah meant Reggie=poor offense/good defense and Andrea=Good O/poor D.

[Balls of Steel]

I never said that Bargnani should be taken out of the starting lineup.

I said change the starting lineup.

I was thinking of another starter who needs to go to the end of the bench or get traded.

When Bargnani's "Rebounding Assistant" didn't play, Bargnani had nine rebounds.

There is no need to need for Bargnani to have a "Rebounding Assistant" starting with him.

Thanks B. Come to think of it, Bosh was Bargs' rebounding assistant. Look at what's happening to him now. Perhaps he needs to get back here on Dec. 15 to resume his original role. More importantly, AB has been the man all these years. He fooled his own GM, got a coach of the year fired, forced his only reliable scoring "rebounding assistant" to leave town and now, he's contaminating the young members of his team (and everyone seems to be OK with it). That is AB's magic (hence the nickname Il Mago).

[Arsenalist]

The starting lineup needs to changed.

The Doug Smith rotation is a friggen disaster, straight up.

Evans and Bargnani are terrible together on defense and offense.

Hopefully Triano will see the light. The starters are getting out scored every game, game after game.

That made me laugh.

Perhaps this analogy may make more sense to some, especially to those that are crying to relax. Let's say you work for a company and belong to a production team. Your boss decides to bring in someone to work with the team but not under any leadership capacity. You are all making the same coin with similar levels of responsibility. Come evaluation time, you noticed that even though the guy they brought in is not working as hard as you, he is getting better reviews and hence better bonuses, etc. This goes on for years. How would you, including the rest of the equally hard-working team members feel? Would you feel motivated to work harder to get noticed by upper management? Do you rally with the rest of the team to work harder so that upper management recognizes your collective efforts and not so much the guy that was brought in? Where would your level of motivation be? This my friends, is the Toronto Raptors.

Just like any job, pro team sports are just like anything else in life. So at 2-9, do some of you still want to relax? I understand it's just a game. I understand that it's just for entertainment. The game tonight was neither a game nor was it entertaining. Perhaps I should just cancel my HD sports package and save me some cash huh? Perhaps, an occasional game at the ACC (paying full price for several tickets) would be the thing of the past right?

Great comment. Totally agree.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

You didn't actually wait all season last year to take some shots at Hedo did you? It was kinda fun actually, as frustrating as it was at the time.

It's also now Barg's fifth season, the jury is out.

I'm pretty sure Buddah meant Reggie=poor offense/good defense and Andrea=Good O/poor D.

I didn't take shots at Hedo 11 games into a 82 game season either.

Bargs played pretty well in most of the games this season, its just been the last couple of games where he has struggled. I think it's way to early to be talking about trading away Bargs.

[Mack North]

I didn't take shots at Hedo 11 games into a 82 game season either.

Bargs played pretty well in most of the games this season, its just been the last couple of games where he has struggled. I think it's way to early to be talking about trading away Bargs.

You must've had one or three in there by the 65 game mark though I bet...

[Buddahfan]

Thanks B. Come to think of it, Bosh was Bargs' rebounding assistant. Look at what's happening to him now. Perhaps he needs to get back here on Dec. 15 to resume his original role. More importantly, AB has been the man all these years. He fooled his own GM, got a coach of the year fired, forced his only reliable scoring "rebounding assistant" to leave town and now, he's contaminating the young members of his team (and everyone seems to be OK with it). That is AB's magic (hence the nickname Il Mago).

I don't think Bargnani needs a "Rebounding Assistant".

Its time that Triano wised up and started the best player at each position rather an unneeded "Rebounding Assistant"

Bosh was not Bargnani's "Rebounding Assistant" because Bosh did a heck of a lot more on the court than just rebound and smile.

[DirtyMikeSeaver]

Bargnani is who he is. There are tons of guys like him in the league who carve out very nice careers (Beasley, Troy Murphy, Raef LaFrentz, Mehmet Okur, Charlie V) and that seems to be his destiny. It's not his fault that Toronto drafted him Number 1 overall and The GM is pushing him as a 'franchise player'. He gets paid the same amount as Ben Gordon and he comes off the bench in Detroit. If Bargnani was used properly (scorer off the bench to make 2nd teamers pay) on a deeper team (say, OK Thunder, who could use a big guy), he would be seen as a valuable asset (like what Lamar Odom was in LA last year, just a LOT less talented).

The one thing I will say is maybe it is time to move Evans and to a lesser extent, guys like Barbosa and Calderon. These guys are 'security blankets' to some of the young guys and maybe it's time for a baptism by fire. They are going to get blown away anyways with these guys and while I like Evans, his skill set really is best suited for a winning team. If you gave guys like Bargnani, Johnson, Weems, DeRozan, heck even Jack the team with a "Look, there's no one behind you and no one to pick up the slack for what you lack!" ultimatum, you can then really figure out what you have. Maybe even the 4.5% chance that Bargnani becomes something other than the Italian Channing Frye might come to the fore....

[grindhouse]

for this team to move forward and begin to rebuild properly.....you can keep Calderon for now,but bargnani has to go..if he can maintain a decent scoring avg you try to move him in the new year...enough is enough..the points dont matter but the writing is on the wall.
You cant win with a guy in the middle who wont rebound or defend...cant.

Trade and begin the process of acquiring thru trade or draft some legit centers who play big at both ends...enough of this perimeter shooting crap..its been a fail from day one.

If BC has to go in order for this guy to get dealt then get rid of bryan as well....Time for some REAL proactiveness...this guy isnt working and its not going to get better...

+1
either they move him or have him come off the bench as a different look on offense. There has only been one team in the NBA that has won a championship without a real center or point guard and thats the bulls Derozan is not Jordan and Weems is not Pippen.

[JoePanini]

Eeek, that was a horrible game on Bargnani's part... Same thing like last year, after a couple of good shooting games he always goes on a slump... I don't know what it is but he's got to at least shoot consistently. Honestly, I don't understand how people are still talking about his rebounding being the problem in this last game, we all know Bargnani will never be a good rebounder, maybe one day he'll be decent but never good. His offense is his only asset, and what I have noticed is that when he gets his offense going early, it not only brings up the morale of the teammates, but he plays better defense in stretches (not sure if anyone else noticed, but I did). In the past few games he hasn't been shooting well, has been doing that really dumb pump-fake move on the three-point line and has not been aggressive at all. At this point I would be more worried about him being a consistent offensive threat, rather than a better defensive player. This is not only better for the team for now, but also for those who want to "trade his white ass" his value would definitely increase if he actually hits his shots.

On what Buddha said, it is completely true. Reggie and Bargnani can't be on the floor at the same time. Yes Reggie bring aggressiveness on defense, but he isn't a good defender. What happens when both of your big men are bad defenders? Watch the Washington game.
The line-up which should start, is clearly Jack/Calderon (I still have mixed feelings on who should start) DeRozan Weems (yes, I finally changed my mind about him) Johnson Bargnani.

Anyways I just hope Bargnani gets his game together, he has a lot to prove to us fans and the management in the next month.

[Raptor4Ever]

It is easy to say lets move AB and Calderon and... but it is much harder to do in real life.

What do you think you will get back for AB now? He has 4 year worth of 40 million left on his contract . What are you expecting to get back for him? Which team you think is interested?

Calderon ?? Forget about it !! BC has been trying to move this guy for last 8 month and no luck. This is what happens when you over pay.

BarBosa !! Maybe !! if his hand was OK !!

Evans !! no one is going to pay for his contract now. Maybe close to trade deadline someone will pick him up.

Lets face it guys, we need to wait now and really evaluate these guys. There is plenty of time to make moves in future.
Right now, it is time to see who blongs and who does NOT.

[JoePanini]

Bargnani is a bad team defender. He is a bad defender in general, and actually he is horrible at team defense. I don't think anyone can teach him that, and the only way for him to improve is if our entire roster work TOGETHER in the summer on defense. I think it would be the only way to help. If you get a coach maybe he can improve his stamina, and how to use his hands etc.. but his team defense would still be sheet.

And guys, c'mon. Firstly most NBA players get extra coaching. Players like Bargnani, Howard or other players who have such huge contracts and are supposed to have such large impacts definitely have coaches who work particularly on their game. Bargnani has been training almost every day for 5 years yet he is still not an even decent defender, so I don't think him training with some defensive specialist will improve anything. And as I said in the "Bargnani has to go" thread, right now his offense is more important to us as he is in a scoring slump. If he gets his offense together, maybe he can start working on his defense. Because Bargnani with a decent offense (he's been shooting badly, taking bad shots etc..) and barely passable defense is not as valuable to the team as a Bargnani with good/great offense and bad defense. Just my opinion..

[RaptorDan]

Everyone is frustrated. The players are frustrated, the fans are frustrated and the coach is frustrated. When was the last time you saw Triano get so pissed off that he said his players are playing like horseshit? Things are going to change with the starting line-up. I think the first thing to change is Evans, who is lovable like a drunken uncle who gives you a noogie, but kind of stumbles into things and breaks them. Bargnani is staying where he is because there is no other option at his position. Remember, Colangelo isn't afraid to roll the dice. He sees the same games you do. Come trade deadline, who knows what this team may look like.

If we start to string a few wins together, the attitude on this board will change. We are quite a reactionary bunch, aren't we.

[Tim W.]

Bargnani is a bad team defender. He is a bad defender in general, and actually he is horrible at team defense. I don't think anyone can teach him that, and the only way for him to improve is if our entire roster work TOGETHER in the summer on defense. I think it would be the only way to help. If you get a coach maybe he can improve his stamina, and how to use his hands etc.. but his team defense would still be sheet.

And guys, c'mon. Firstly most NBA players get extra coaching. Players like Bargnani, Howard or other players who have such huge contracts and are supposed to have such large impacts definitely have coaches who work particularly on their game. Bargnani has been training almost every day for 5 years yet he is still not an even decent defender, so I don't think him training with some defensive specialist will improve anything. And as I said in the "Bargnani has to go" thread, right now his offense is more important to us as he is in a scoring slump. If he gets his offense together, maybe he can start working on his defense. Because Bargnani with a decent offense (he's been shooting badly, taking bad shots etc..) and barely passable defense is not as valuable to the team as a Bargnani with good/great offense and bad defense. Just my opinion..

And that's from a Bargnani fan. Obviously, I pretty much agree.

[LeeZ]

Arse, I have a job for you, if you're up to the task. How about you break down the game tape from the Sixers game in order to focus EXCLUSIVELY on Andrea at the defensive end. In other words, zero in on him EVERY SINGLE PLAY and rate his intensity, hustle, decison-making and execution for EVERY PLAY. You could reconstruct certain plays that are particularly eggregious or encouraging (I suspect more of the former than the latter). And then offer up a tally at the end of the game, along the lines of: Andrea was involved in x number of possessions, and his average rating per possession was x. Would anyone else be interested in this?

[Tim W.]

Arse, I have a job for you, if you're up to the task. How about you break down the game tape from the Sixers game in order to focus EXCLUSIVELY on Andrea at the defensive end. In other words, zero in on him EVERY SINGLE PLAY and rate his intensity, hustle, decison-making and execution for EVERY PLAY. You could reconstruct certain plays that are particularly eggregious or encouraging (I suspect more of the former than the latter). And then offer up a tally at the end of the game, along the lines of: Andrea was involved in x number of possessions, and his average rating per possession was x. Would anyone else be interested in this?

I don't really know what the point would be. It's fairly obvious to anyone who watches that he's simply a poor defender. Against Washington he was worse than usual. His man to man defense, which is often overrated by fans around here, was poor and his team defense was downright atrocious. Do we needs stats to see this?

[LeeZ]

I don't really know what the point would be. It's fairly obvious to anyone who watches that he's simply a poor defender. Against Washington he was worse than usual. His man to man defense, which is often overrated by fans around here, was poor and his team defense was downright atrocious. Do we needs stats to see this?

What would the point be? I dunno...to have something tangible, something concrete (albeit based on Arse's subjective assessment), something METHODICAL to back up our impressions. I mean, during a game, I rarely take the time to pay particular attention to Bargs. But if I were to do so (or Arse were to do so), I think patterns would emerge. Often times one is left with a vague impression that there was a defensive breakdown by the team but one can't pinpoint exactly where it happened. My hunch is that such a play-by-play breakdown would help, and that more often than not, the finger of blame would point at you know who. Bottom line? There's something about this guy that GALLS me, and it's lack of hustle, lack of effort, lack of guts and lack of caring. And anything (statistical or otherwise) that backs this up will be welcome. At least to me. But I do hear what you're saying, Tim.

[jeff_hostetler]

Look, I've been a supporter of Bargnani through a lot of crap, buy I've had it with him. The first quarter scoring run put on by the Wizards was pretty much all on Bargnani, with his bad shots leading to no points gained on offence and just shit-awful defence leaving the paint wide-the-fuck open. Infuriating.

I'd trade him for nothing at this point - quite literally. His terrible efforts are digging holes for this team and leading others to check out as he - their highest paid and focal point - does. You might call it overreacting 11 games into the season, but he is a full on veteran in this league now. If i see him waste another open shot with a pump fake and jump into his defender so he can relieve the pressure of having to hit his shot, I'm gonna flip. Seeing as how that's his only move, I'll most likely be flipping at 7:25 this evening.

Even if he has a good game tonight, my mind is made up. He's got to go. Bargnani for Oden sounds pretty good to me. Just get him off the team.

[ebrian]

Anyone tasked with carefully watching Bargnani all the time would have to be put on suicide watch.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Anyone tasked with carefully watching Bargnani all the time would have to be put on suicide watch.

+1million. Id rather stick my head in the freezer, or the grinder.
2 rebounds?? Are you fucking kidding me?

Ive been a defender of Bargs since he got drafted but no more.
He wont even get value in a trade, i say we just waive him.

Good to great players pay their dues at both ends of the floor.
You want shots, you have to defend at the other end.
Seems like Bargnani is getting a free ride, all he wants to do is shoot and not exert effort on the defensive end
as soon as the ball goes up you see him running to the offensive end coz he wants to get the ball and shoot
its pathetic. he's pathetic. and BC will be pathetic if he doesnt trade this lazy ass soon.