Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Buddahfan]

I assume this is based on the last 5 games of which they have lost 4.

If you look at the loss vs NYK when he had 41, he was minus 8. Look at tonight, he is minus 15.

But in a loss to the Nuggets he was even when most of the other starters were minus double digits.

Versus DET he was minus 1 when DD and WEems were minus 15 and 20.

VS OKC he is +17 when Amir is +7 and JC+8.

OR how about the loss vs. BOS when he is minus 6 and the rest of the starters are minus 19, 18, 13, and 22?

Better yet, how about the win vs. BOS when he is +6 and all the other starters are minus 13, 18, 2, and 19?

Bargnani doesn't need to and shouldn't be traded. Bargnani and the rest of the team need to get better. It is quite easy to pick any player on a lottery bound team and say that player gets out scored when he is on the court - especially the team's leading minutes played.

First you discard the numbers from baskeballvalue.com as meaningless saying as I recall that numbers can be manipulated then you proceed to attempt to defend Bargnani, but using numbers from selected games.

Geez.

End of conversation.

[Buddahfan]

These "trade the guy now!!!" threads, after one bad game, are all getting old in general.

One bad game?

How about 1 + bad seasons.

I can't comment before last season because I only watched him play maybe a dozen or so games before last season.

[DoNDaDDa]

if Sam Mitchell was left in charge Bargs Defence prob would be much better by now...or hed be sitting most nights.....jay seems to force feed players minutes they dont deserve...

the biggest mistake BC has made to date is firing Sam....

[Apollo]

One bad game?

How about 1 + bad seasons.

I can't comment before last season because I only watched him play maybe a dozen or so games before last season.

He hasn't played bad this season. He's no superstar but without hid scoring the Raptors would be a lot worse off. It's not like Amir Johnson has created issues for defenses.

[Apollo]

One more thing Buddah. What do you think they can get for him and how does that make the team better?

[Maleko]

if Sam Mitchell was left in charge Bargs Defence prob would be much better by now...or hed be sitting most nights.....jay seems to force feed players minutes they dont deserve...

the biggest mistake BC has made to date is firing Sam....

I liked Sam too, not much on the offensive sets, but he was entertaining.

[Matt52]

First you discard the numbers from baskeballvalue.com as meaningless saying as I recall that numbers can be manipulated then you proceed to attempt to defend Bargnani, but using numbers from selected games.

Geez.

End of conversation.

Actually, I attempted to figure out where your reasoning was coming from.

Then used the stats I thought were your reasoning to show they were weak. (BTW +/- stats are probably the least reliable basketball stat there is - I should have said that from the outset).

Then you put up the stats post.

Then I made the comment stats can be used to show anything and I would much rather see solid perimeter defenders playing with Bargnani. Also I like the match-up problems he poses over his defensive weaknesses.

Then you replied about something the last two seasons which I ignored and another comment that, IMO, is delusional which I also ignored.

Then you put up the above quoted comment.

Your contempt for Bargnani is not only clouding reality but now history.

[Multipaul]

Guys, it goes without saying. Bargs is without a doubt the best centre this team has ever had. Looking back at the other scrubs we've seen come through here, Bargs makes them all look like chumps.

We should be happy we have an all star like King Bargs on our team. Did you see the way he sliced and diced at MSG? 41 pts, inside, out.

Best centre this team has ever seen (and for my money, best player).

[Matt52]

Oh dear.... somewhere between Buddah's description and Multipaul's lies the truth.

[raptorsking]

he's a center who takes low percentage shots. his post game isnt bad but he's too soft to post up on big guys.

[Multipaul]

Take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto...ll-time_roster

Who has been a better Centre on this team??? Camby/Olaujuaiajoafwaon...gtf outta here

[octothorp]

When Antonio Davis was being used as a center, he was better in many aspects of the game than Bargnani is now. A dependable 14 and 9 guy who played solid defensively and and capable of a classic post-up center game, despite being undersized for the position. Bargnani is more skilled and talented, and I believe he'll become a far better center than Davis ever was, but right now he doesn't quite measure up to Davis in his prime.

[DoNDaDDa]

even though he was undersized id say Antonio Davis was our best center....By Far...id take him over Bargs on my all time raptor list...

Camby is up there too..

even when we Had Hakeem he played better D then Bargs LOL

[Multipaul]

When Antonio Davis was being used as a center, he was better in many aspects of the game than Bargnani is now. A dependable 14 and 9 guy who played solid defensively and and capable of a classic post-up center game, despite being undersized for the position. Bargnani is more skilled and talented, and I believe he'll become a far better center than Davis ever was, but right now he doesn't quite measure up to Davis in his prime.

Interesting...but I don't think so. I never saw Davis drop 41 points on anyone, anytime, anyplace. Plus he had beef with Tdot.

[DoNDaDDa]

Interesting...but I don't think so. I never saw Davis drop 41 points on anyone, anytime, anyplace. Plus he had beef with Tdot.

41 points is impressive for a SG... id be more impressed if he had a 20/20 game...which bargs will never do.....

atleast with Tone.. we wouldnt have had Nazi & Kwame abusing us...

[Hotshot]

That doesn't say much to the quality of centre's the Raptors had over the years of being in existence.

Bargs is good but good in terms of being a second or a third option much like a Rashard Lewis and Okur were, if he is your number 1 scoring option then you are in trouble because you will have to tolerate his horrible D for long stretches (Okur and Lewis in their prime were also a bad defenders but their team defensive systems and the players surronding them were much more superior then what the Raptors currently have and therefore could tolerate/hide their indvidual's bad D for long stretches of the game).

[Buddahfan]

Andrea’s tough night

Oddly detached was the way I first described Bargnani’s rather bad effort and I think that’s pretty suitable.

Two plays in particular:

There’s a loose ball under the basket right in front of the Toronto bench and Andrea’s about a foot away from it. Instead of bending at the knees or – heaven forbid! – diving to the floor, he made some half-buttocked effort to bend at the waist and pick the ball up before a Bobcat simply beat him to it and headed the other way.

Change of possession, Raptors are headed back on defence and I saw Boris Diaw, who is not the, um, most sculpted pro athlete I ever saw – simply beat Bargnani down the floor in a foot race.

Now, in Andrea’s defence, I will note that he didn’t do much or anything at shootaround Tuesday morning because his knees were a bit sore, and he did spend an awful lot of time after the game icing down, but they need a better effort than they got last night.

Maybe it is his knees that are making him so inconsistent from game to game.

When they are hurting he stinks, when they are not he plays better than stinky

he made some half-buttocked effort to bend at the waist and pick the ball up

RFLMAO - Smith wrote a funny - LOL

[Buddahfan]

Oh dear.... somewhere between Buddah's description and Multipaul's lies the truth.

See my new thread on Bargnani's knee problems.

This could be negatively affecting his game.

1. I never said he couldn't score
2. My main criticism of him has not even been about his lack of rebounding.
3. My problem is that is overall defense sucks and that is the truth whether some choose to believe it or not.

I like Bargnani as a sixth man when scoring is more important than defense in a lot of cases. Besides coming off of the bench he will only have to guard the likes of K. Brown? Oh he tried that last night.

In any case I see him as a nice sixth man or first big coming off of the bench.

[Multipaul]

That doesn't say much to the quality of centre's the Raptors had over the years of being in existence.

Bargs is good but good in terms of being a second or a third option much like a Rashard Lewis and Okur were, if he is your number 1 scoring option then you are in trouble because you will have to tolerate his horrible D for long stretches (Okur and Lewis in their prime were also a bad defenders but their team defensive systems and the players surronding them were much more superior then what the Raptors currently have and therefore could tolerate/hide their indvidual's bad D for long stretches of the game).

I can see your points. But, in fairness, he is the best player playing at Centre the Raps have ever had. Right?

[Multipaul]

See my new thread on Bargnani's knee problems.

This could be negatively affecting his game.

1. I never said he couldn't score
2. My main criticism of him has not even been about his lack of rebounding.
3. My problem is that is overall defense sucks and that is the truth whether some choose to believe it or not.

I like Bargnani as a sixth man when scoring is more important than defense in a lot of cases. Besides coming off of the bench he will only have to guard the likes of K. Brown? Oh he tried that last night.

In any case I see him as a nice sixth man or first big coming off of the bench.

Dude had a bad night, boo hoo. D Wade has had some worse bad nights this year, so has Lebron, Dirk, Melo. Bosh had more than his fair share last year, including during the playoff run when he called it in.

Just cuz Doug Smith said he was icing his knees doesnt mean he has knee problems. Doug Smith is like a lifesized troll bead.