Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Raptorsss]

Good interview, I hope he works hard at his post-up moves, rebounding and help defense in the off-season.

[Multipaul]

great article, thanks. nice to hear some love for toronto from bargs, especially considering that tranny bosh's latest diatribe on toronto 'just smellin different, ya know'.

let the bargs era begin!

[Multipaul]

Whatever you do... don't let Multipaul read this thread! This will definitely hurt his feelings and have him in an uproar!

I suppose it's a fair ranking though, his stats should improve across the board slightly.

lol, this coming from the hoops expert with the football avatar.

im surprised they ranked him so high actually, considering some of the dubious players listed before him it is evident yahoo has their heads up their a**es. realistically i think even the most laymen of fans would agree bargs should be at LEAST top ten, possibly higher.

[Buddahfan]

I don't know if I agree, I mean sure horford can play center but he gets beat up for his lack of size. Barg rebounding hurt because he doesn't play the center position the way it's suppose to be played, his game puts him out of position of getting lot of rebounds.

What I do agree with you on is that there are offensive schemes that can be run which will allow a team to do away with the conventional point guard. I personally wish Toronto ran these schemes and didn't have to rely on these guards that are currently on the roster who can not play defense.

I agree with what you are saying.

Let me try and clarify my point which it seems to me that you support with your Horford example.

There is this "natural position" if you will in that it is the position that a player plays best. Horford may not be playing the position that he plays best. In today's game players play "out of position" all of the time or are in fact true hybrid players in that they can play multiple positions about equally well.

My point is that while all the above may be true the concept of "natural position" in today's game is not relevant because so many players are hybrid players and so many wind up playing multiple positions that that becomes the reality of what happens.

Yes one can talk about the concept of "natural position" but teams today go with the best players available even if it means one or more players play out of their so called "natural position". So while the concept of "natural position" may be valid from a discussion point of view from a practical on the court reality the concept of natural position is just not valid. There are of course exceptions.

[DoubleD]

The whole concept of a player's natural position does not have near the meaning that is used to. Today there are are so many hybrid players that play multiple positions. In the old days players were pretty clearly identified as a 1 - 5 and matched up that way. Today the game has become a lot more fluid and many players have to play multiple positions. However, I will take it one step further and say that in some offenses positions in the classical sense are meaningless. For example in the Princeton, Motion and Triangle offenses the classic point guard responsibilities get distributed among various players.

Lebron handled the ball more than anyone on the Cavs and I believe led the team in assists but he was not a Point Guard. So someone created the term Point Forward I believe when Bird played for Boston and Lebron is called a Point Forward. So what number is the classic position numbering system does that get?

On defense players match up regardless of what their offensive responsibilities are.

Bottom line I think that in today's game the idea of a "natural position" is unnatural. Players do what their offenses call for them to do at any given time and vice versa on defense.

Yes the term "natural position is still used" but has in my opinion become an outdated meaningless phrase.

There may be a lot of "hybrid" players nowadays but most players still have a natural position based on their best skills, both offensively and defensively.
Lebron could play multiple positions, but his natural position as at small forward. His ability to drive the lane, shoot and rebound, far out weigh his passing ability.

On the defensive side, he guards players his size, speed and strength. He could guard a point guard. I'm sure he could lock down C. Billups, but who's gonna cover Melo?? It would be a waste of his size and strength.

With Andrea, his best skills are shooting (mainly 3s), pull up jumper from the elbow, and decent "man" defense due to his size and lateral movement (for his size). Maybe some passing skills but we haven't seen too much of that. Ok, he has one good skill, shooting!! But he lacks the skills, strength, and size (weight) required to play the center position. He can't hold a low post postion, has no post moves, doesn't rebound well, and doesn't clog the lane or give any weak side help. His only "skill" that makes him a center being 7' tall.
If the Raptors had anyone else on the floor that was 7 ft tall, Barginani would not be a center. His natural postion is power forward.

Now saying that, I believe the definition of each position has changed over the years. The shooting guard is expected to do a lot more that just shoot and leak out on the fast break. He is expected to handle the ball, and create open shots for team mates, and rebound. Everyone is expected to rebound!!
The center should do more than just rebound and get put-backs. He should be able to step back and hit a 8-10 ft shot. Run a high pick n roll and finish strong down the lane!
A lot more is expected out of each position, but most players do have a natural position to play.

[Introcollapse]

Lebron could play multiple positions, but his natural position as at small forward. His ability to drive the lane, shoot and rebound, far out weigh his passing ability.

I'd argue Lebron would play best at the point. He's quicker than most point guards, much, MUCH stronger and taller. One of the very best passers we've ever seen, with a solid overall handle. Miami would be foolish not to start both he and Miller, with Lebron at the point.

The idea of "traditional" positions is nearly obslete. We have teams like Golden State with Don Nelson that last year would have line-ups with Corey Maggette at the 5. It's all situational, and opinion.

For example, I believe a full roster of 7'1" guys, no matter how unskilled they are, could beat a good number of NBA teams, simply because they're tall and have mismatch written all over them. Shots blocked, rebounds, and easy lay-ups. Overhead passes. Great formula, right?

Well, I could start a bunch of 6'2" athletic freaks and play the gambling run and gun game. If the D is solid, that team wins too...

My point in all this is that a player should not be defined by his height or size, but instead by his skill set and what he can contribute. Isn't it odd that very few people referred to Arenas as a combo guard, let alone a shooting guard, until this year with John Wall?

All situational.

[DoubleD]

I'd argue Lebron would play best at the point. He's quicker than most point guards, much, MUCH stronger and taller. One of the very best passers we've ever seen, with a solid overall handle. Miami would be foolish not to start both he and Miller, with Lebron at the point.

The idea of "traditional" positions is nearly obslete. We have teams like Golden State with Don Nelson that last year would have line-ups with Corey Maggette at the 5. It's all situational, and opinion.

For example, I believe a full roster of 7'1" guys, no matter how unskilled they are, could beat a good number of NBA teams, simply because they're tall and have mismatch written all over them. Shots blocked, rebounds, and easy lay-ups. Overhead passes. Great formula, right?

Well, I could start a bunch of 6'2" athletic freaks and play the gambling run and gun game. If the D is solid, that team wins too...

My point in all this is that a player should not be defined by his height or size, but instead by his skill set and what he can contribute. Isn't it odd that very few people referred to Arenas as a combo guard, let alone a shooting guard, until this year with John Wall?

All situational.

That was my point. Their natural position is based on their skill set. Lebron may be quicker than some point guard but his skill set is better suited for the small forward position. Offensively he should not waste his enengy bringing up the ball to them pass it to Miller. He should be driving to the basket, posting up smaller forwards, and crashing the glass.
Defensively, he should cover the other teams stronger offensive players. Again, he could cover the pg, but it would be a waste of his stronger skills.
Lebron's skills set happens to so good that even his weaker skills are better than the avg player's best skills so he could play many position better most.

Magic Johnson could score, rebound, post up, but his best skill was passing and leading the break. He was a 6'8" pg because thats what his skill set dictated.

Who's bring up the ball with your 7'1" team. Who's creating the shots? It would only work if their skill sets where that of the traditional positions. i.e. a 7' guy that can dribble the ball. One that can create his own shots off the dribble. A couple of them them that can run a pickn roll.
The game is situational but natural positions still exist.

[LBF]

Bargnani does good interviews. He's a straight shooter.

let's just put it this way he's better than a fomer raptor.

[dn66]

let's just put it this way he's better than a fomer raptor.

I just love that commercial. It compares well with the old Bron "family" commercials.

[Apollo]

Was this a chat or an interview?

Was Bargnani asking the interviewer questions? A chat is two way, an interview is one way.

[SirChillyMost]

The whole concept of a player's natural position does not have near the meaning that is used to. Today there are are so many hybrid players that play multiple positions. In the old days players were pretty clearly identified as a 1 - 5 and matched up that way. Today the game has become a lot more fluid and many players have to play multiple positions. However, I will take it one step further and say that in some offenses positions in the classical sense are meaningless. For example in the Princeton, Motion and Triangle offenses the classic point guard responsibilities get distributed among various players.

Lebron handled the ball more than anyone on the Cavs and I believe led the team in assists but he was not a Point Guard. So someone created the term Point Forward I believe when Bird played for Boston and Lebron is called a Point Forward. So what number is the classic position numbering system does that get?

On defense players match up regardless of what their offensive responsibilities are.

Bottom line I think that in today's game the idea of a "natural position" is unnatural. Players do what their offenses call for them to do at any given time and vice versa on defense.

Yes the term "natural position is still used" but has in my opinion become an outdated meaningless phrase.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7...-hybrid-player

Whatever you have to say to rationalize ie natural position, the irrational ie Bargnani is a NBA center, in your mind- I guess.

Just because a player is more versatile like- LBJ, whose game is more that of a point forward ala SPippen than a traditional sf or pg. Or that a jump shooting, priemeter oriented 7 footer is more of a PF than a center. Talent evaluation.

[LBF]

I compared some of the 09-10 numbers of Bargnani to Anderson.

Conclusion:
-------------------
1. Bargnani was a better shooter, Anderson is a better rebounder and defender.
2. Bargnani's offense did not come close to compensating for his horrible defense.
3. Anderson's defense seemed to offset his poorer shooting and overall looking at all sources his on court/off court numbers appear to be slightly favorable whereas Bargnani's on court/off court numbers were very unfavorable.
4. WS/48 was almost equal. Since Houston and Toronto had almost identical records the team affect on WS/48 in non-existent in this case.
==================================================

Summary line item comparison with respect to 09-10 based upon the numbers B = Bargnani and A = Anderson

1. B was a better shooter from the field including on 3 point attempts
2. B was a better shooter from the free throw line
3. B scored at about a 20% greater rate on a points per 36 minutes basis. While B's Usg% was higher the better scorer could be attributed to better shooting.
4. A was a better rebounder in rebounds per 36 minutes
5. A was a better rebounder in percentage of available rebounds grabbed
6. A and B's Net Offense/Defense Rating according to BaskeballReference.com were both a minus five. This is below average
7. B had a slightly better Roland Rating due to a better shooting percentage and greater usage percentage on offense
8. A had a favorable rating in both on court/off court team points allowed per 100 possessions and effective team field goal percentage allowed.
9. B had an unfavorable rating in both on court/off court team points allowed per 100 possessions and effective team field goal percentage allowed.
10. A had a favorable 1 Year Unadjusted Overall Net Rating
11. B had an unfavorable 1 Year Unadjusted Overall Rating
12. A was ranked 4th best in defense on the Rockets last season
13. B was ranked worst in defense on the Raptors last season




Category----------------------------------Bargnani---Anderson
================================================== =
Age Nov 1, 2010-------------------------------26-------30
Height----------------------------------------7'0"------6'11"
Weight---------------------------------------225-------245 Note: Bargnani clearly weighs more than 225 4sure.

09-10 Numbers
---------------------------
MPG------------------------------------------35.0-------14.1
PPG-------------------------------------------17.2--------5.8
Points per 36 Min------------------------------17.7-------14.8
FG%------------------------------------------.470-------.432
3FG%-----------------------------------------.372-------.346
FT%------------------------------------------.778-------.687
RPG--------------------------------------------6.2---------3.3
Rebounds per 36 Min----------------------------6.3---------8.4
PER--------------------------------------------15.5--------12.1
TRB%------------------------------------------10.4--------13.4
USG%------------------------------------------22.3--------20.2
ORtg--------------------------------------------108---------103
DRtg--------------------------------------------113---------108
Net Off/Def Rating--------------------------------(5)---------(5)
WS/48----------------.072--------.070
Simple Roland Rating-----------------------------(2.0--------(3.0)
On Court Pts All Per 100-------------------------116.9------106.9
Off Court Pts All Per 100-------------------------108.3------109.9
Net On/Off Court Pts Alll Per 100-------------------8.6------- (3.0) Note: Plus means team allowed more points when player on court and minus means team allowed fewer points when the player on court.
On Court Eff FG% Allow---------------------------52.4--------49.3
Off Court Eff FG% Allow---------------------------48.6--------51.6
Net On/Off Court Eff FG% Allow---------------------3.8--------(2.4) Note: Plus means teams allowed opponents to shoot better when player on court and minus means that opponents shot worse when the player was on the court - The lower the number the better.
1 Year Unadjusted Overall Net Rtg-----------------(6.88)-------2.88 Note: The greater the positive number the better and the lower the negative number the worse.
1 Year Unadjusted Off Rtg--------------------------2.22--------0.36
1 Year Unadjusted Def Rtg------------------------(9.10)--------2.53
1 Year Def Rtg Rank on Team---------------------Worst--------4th Best Note: Players that played over 750 minutes

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...anderda03.html

http://www.82games.com/0910/09HOU21.HTM

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplaye...r=ASC&team=HOU


Comment: While I did see Anderson play last season his play does not stick out in my mind. However, based upon the numbers on offense his game on offense seems somewhat similar to Bargnani though not as effective or efficient. It is worth noting that Bargnani and Johnson matched up pretty good last season on both offense and defense. So just based upon the numbers Anderson and Johnson may also match up pretty good.

Will this make Davis the 4th big on the depth chart? Could be. We shall have to wait and see.

must you do this. i mean, there is no compariosn one is much better than the other one now if you were going to compare someone like kleiza and delfino then i'd listen.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...dliest-warrior

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...rior-part-deux

[DemarDaChosen]

Nice player to have but there's no chance I'd take him higher than 40th/45th overall.

[Introcollapse]

That was my point. Their natural position is based on their skill set. Lebron may be quicker than some point guard but his skill set is better suited for the small forward position. Offensively he should not waste his enengy bringing up the ball to them pass it to Miller. He should be driving to the basket, posting up smaller forwards, and crashing the glass.
Defensively, he should cover the other teams stronger offensive players. Again, he could cover the pg, but it would be a waste of his stronger skills.
Lebron's skills set happens to so good that even his weaker skills are better than the avg player's best skills so he could play many position better most.

Magic Johnson could score, rebound, post up, but his best skill was passing and leading the break. He was a 6'8" pg because thats what his skill set dictated.

Who's bring up the ball with your 7'1" team. Who's creating the shots? It would only work if their skill sets where that of the traditional positions. i.e. a 7' guy that can dribble the ball. One that can create his own shots off the dribble. A couple of them them that can run a pickn roll.
The game is situational but natural positions still exist.

Lebron's best attribute is his passing, by far. Playing the point doesn't hinder his game in any way. He'd get easier offensive rebounds, more and-1's, obviously more assists...

Stop thinking so narrowly. Just because Lebron plays the point does not mean he's going to guard CP3, or CP3's gonna guard him. That's the whole issue of match-ups. Which is why, if they include Miller in the starting lineup and Lebron plays the point, the smallest player for Miami would be Wade. And that creates massive match-up problems when the other team has a backcourt of, say, Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter.

Lebron is Magic Johnson with twice the athleticism and scoring ability.

Bargnani does seem better suited to play what you're calling the power forward position, simply because I think his outside shooting and lack of rebounding would be best complemented by another 7 foot player. Think LA with Gasol and Bynum (granted, Gasol's five times the rebounder Bargnani is).

[Lark Benson]

lol, this coming from the hoops expert with the football avatar.

im surprised they ranked him so high actually, considering some of the dubious players listed before him it is evident yahoo has their heads up their a**es. realistically i think even the most laymen of fans would agree bargs should be at LEAST top ten, possibly higher.

Is there a name for the special kind of delusion Multipaul suffers from? I mean does anyone on the planet share this guy's opinion, aside from maybe Bargs' mom?

[Raptor Cowboy]

I sorta agree with him... just not top 10 (or 25 for that matter). What I do know, is that getting a couple 3s from your centre and having a big who doesn't auto-lose you on FT% is definitely a huge plus.

[nubreed000]

lol, this coming from the hoops expert with the football avatar.

im surprised they ranked him so high actually, considering some of the dubious players listed before him it is evident yahoo has their heads up their a**es. realistically i think even the most laymen of fans would agree bargs should be at LEAST top ten, possibly higher.

You have your head up Bargs' ass.

[Dr. James Naismith]

Not much, but just a couple highlights of Bargnani from Italy's game versus Croatia last week.



Look how much of a beast he is in the paint.

[Buddahfan]

Any highlights from his defensive game?

Man love here? Nothing wrong with it if that's your thing. Just wondering

After all posters have suggested that I have man love for Johnson, which I don't, so I just thought I would ask.

[Dr. James Naismith]

You obviously don't know me well enough Buddah. I've been chairman of the board to the "I hate everything about Andrea" fan club for the last couple years. So, no man love on my part. Just doing my part to share his highlights.

Eventhough I'm pessimistic when it comes to Bargnani, I'm optimistic and looking forward to see how he responds in the absence of Bosh come this season. I'm expecting big things and I hope he doesn't disappoint.