Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Raptorsss]

I think Bargnani has reached his potential, so its up to BC to decide what to do with him. He needs to have two dominant rebounding/defensive players on the floor with him, to cover up his liabilities. Davis/Wright/Alabi/Ajinca All have that potential, but the emphasis is on potential.

If the Raptors can get lucky and draft Kyrie Irving, then they should look to trade Calderon when he has value. Otherwise the Raptors need a more polished version of JuJu, to start at the three and a veteran big man to plug next to Bargnani, like Nene or Chandler.

I'd rather develop the bigs that we have and look to find a good defensive three, that can start and a point-guard to replace Calderon and push Bayless.

[Bendit]

It matters if you're getting your money's worth. He's not a franchise guy, that's already been established, but he's not rubbish. He's a talented player. Who exactly are you going to replace him with? Is he a one dimensional player? Sure. Could he stand to be a better rebounder and defender? Sure. If you're looking to salary dump him, it makes no sense.

Consider him an "asset". As with all assets especially in a cap world one must consider whether replacement with other assets is more beneficial to the quicker growth of the portfolio as it were. This is really whats at issue here. Having been a firm supporter, I am now frankly not sure. If anything I lean to having him come off the bench to face the second team of the opposition where his offense would have us maintain the score or even improve (give him a touch on every possession!) while his defense may not be as much a detriment. At the same time his value must be pretty high currently. Wonder if a straight up exchange for Kevin Love were possible?

[Balls of Steel]

If we hold on to this guy for the duration of his contract, he will simply be the next Mehmet Okur (if injured a lot) or Troy Murphy (without the rebounds). Okur is just labouring in Utah and New Jersey doesn't even want Murphy. If you look at Bayless and DeRozan (and our # 4 pick) as the core, all are athletic and fast. I just don't know where AB7 fits in all of this five years down the line.

[MangoKid]

If we hold on to this guy for the duration of his contract, he will simply be the next Mehmet Okur (if injured a lot) or Troy Murphy (without the rebounds). Okur is just labouring in Utah and New Jersey doesn't even want Murphy. If you look at Bayless and DeRozan (and our # 4 pick) as the core, all are athletic and fast. I just don't know where AB7 fits in all of this five years down the line.

He's basically more gifted offensively than Okur or Murphy, but he's not as good rebounding wise. He's not a franchise guy and shouldn't be looked as one. Instead, he's a good #2 or 1-B. But I wouldn't get rid of the guy for the sake of getting rid of him. It would take a sweetheart deal in order for Colangelo to get rid of him.

[Raptor4Ever]

If you look at Bayless and DeRozan (and our # 4 pick) as the core, all are athletic and fast.

Do you think being athletic and fast is all that matters when it comes to NBA Players !! How about Skill, vision, Basketball IQ and ...
If being fast and atheletic was the only things that matter, than all those street ballers would have been in NBA.

Bayless is not a core of this team. He is at best is a reliable back up PG at the end.

DD is not core of this team. He is at best is a Chandler type player that NY has.

[Tim W.]

It matters if you're getting your money's worth. He's not a franchise guy, that's already been established, but he's not rubbish. He's a talented player. Who exactly are you going to replace him with? Is he a one dimensional player? Sure. Could he stand to be a better rebounder and defender? Sure. If you're looking to salary dump him, it makes no sense.

If I signed Michael Beasley, Corey Maggette, Charlie Villanueva, Baron Davis and Andre Blatche all for the minimum, I'd be getting my money's worth because they all would demand much, much higher than that normally. I wouldn't win much, but I'd certainly be getting my money's worth. I would rather win than get my money's worth.

[Tim W.]

AB has weaknesses but he is by far more talented than anyone else in this team. If you want to talk about weaknesses that are liabilities then talk about Weems, Johnson and ....

This is a team which has no talent except Jose, AB and DD and the rest of the guys will barely make the end of the bench in a real competive team.

Now, if we managed to teach Amir ONE post move or DD how to defend his man or ... and made a desent team, then it makes sense to trade AB or limit his role.

Till then, Trading AB ( which will never happen since BC has little common sense still left in him) is plain stupid move.

Playing defense isn't a talent? Rebounding isn't a talent? I have to say I'm sick of the argument that Bargnani is the most talented or best player on the roster. He's not. He's the most talented SCORER on the roster. Period. He's not even the best offensive player on the roster because Cadleron has a more positive impact on the team, offensively than Bargnani does.

The two best players on the roster are Calderon and Amir Johnson because they have the most positive effect on the team when they're on the floor. When all is said and done, in basketball the whole idea is to win. The best players win. The others don't.

[MangoKid]

If I signed Michael Beasley, Corey Maggette, Charlie Villanueva, Baron Davis and Andre Blatche all for the minimum, I'd be getting my money's worth because they all would demand much, much higher than that normally. I wouldn't win much, but I'd certainly be getting my money's worth. I would rather win than get my money's worth.

You wouldn't win because all of those guys are notorious (well, with the exception of Villanueva) toxic teammates. I would put Bargnani ahead of those guys. Bargnani would be in the same level as Brook Lopez.

[Nine New Faces]

As much as I dislike Bargs as a starting center in this league, I can see his value coming off of the bench. I think the best use of his game is as a microwave in the second unit, along with a good 2-way wing that plays the pick and roll well and draws fouls and a bunch of defensive specialists to plug holes; he'd be pretty valuable, even on that contract.

The problem is when the team will find itself with enough talent that Bargs isn't starting at the 5 out of need. And whether that can happen without trading Bargs in order to acquire more talent for the starting lineup. Because really, if you're spending 10 mill on a backup center then you're probably in the tax. So the CBA might play a part in his future too.

I agree with the thinking that you hold onto Bargs a bit longer. You need to at least see what the draft brings before you can assess his role with the club moving forward. As long as he continues to put up points, someone will be interested in him with that contract, so you might as well wait it out and see if he ever dedicates himself to bringing more energy and focus. The losing might get to him, a new coach might get to him, you don't know. It probably won't come, but the time isn't right to get rid of him unless you are gaining a clear upgrade in talent.

[Tim W.]

You wouldn't win because all of those guys are notorious (well, with the exception of Villanueva) toxic teammates. I would put Bargnani ahead of those guys. Bargnani would be in the same level as Brook Lopez.

Only Blatche is really toxic. But the point is that none of them play a lick of defense. And I don't think any of them make a positive impact when they're on the floor.

Bargnani is a talented scorer, but because he's a liability on the other end, he's an overall negative. If you want to win, you simply can't have guys like that playing significant minutes.

The goal is not to have the best contracts, it's to have the players that are going to help you win the most.

[yertu damkule]

Wonder if a straight up exchange for Kevin Love were possible?

BWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAA

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaahaa.

sorry. had to get that out of my system.

[golden]

You wouldn't win because all of those guys are notorious (well, with the exception of Villanueva) toxic teammates. I would put Bargnani ahead of those guys. Bargnani would be in the same level as Brook Lopez.

Bargnani creates a far worse problem for team culture than those other guys because he is rarely held accountable for his lack of effort on defense and on the boards. This is the message being sent to all of these young developing Raptor players. Defense doesn't matter. The problem is that Bargs has 150% backing of both BC and Jay Triano who turn a blind eye to it.

At least those other guys (Beasley, Blatche,....) are obvious jerks or flakes, but what Bargs does and gets away is with more subtle and is becoming ingrained as part of the DNA of a losing team culture. Like Tim said, it doesn't matter how much you're paying him, the damage to the team isn't worth it.

One of the few things that Smitch did right was to use the tough love approach and put him in 6th man role.

[yertu damkule]

Well, see, the problem with Bargnani isn't just limited to Bargnani. It's a Raptor-wide issue.

The problem with the Raptors is that the team is filled purely with one-dimensional players. Let's break it down (Bolded players with a semblance of a legit skill set):

PG. Calderon: Assists
SG. Derozan: Scoring
SF. Wright: Defense
PF. Amir: Rebounding/Defense/Minor Offense
C. Bargnani: Scoring

Bayless: Scoring/little bit of everything else
Barbosa: Scoring
Kleiza: Rebounding/Offense
Davis: Rebounding/Defense
Evans: Rebounding
Dorsey: Rebounding

The problem is not that the above is a list of everyone's best attributes. It's that the above is a list of everyone's total attributes.

So. Why single out Bargnani then when you've got a full roster plagued with inadequacy? Because when you look at the list, he's the guy whose single skill is the least suited to his position. If you're going to fill your roster with one dimensional players (bad strategy) as the Raptors have done, at least make sure that that one dimension is complementary to the position they play.

Now, if you ask me, every player on the roster should have a /Defense after their primary skill. And if any position requires defense not as a secondary skill, but as a primary, it is the Center.

nicely done.

[Multipaul]

King Bargs

[Balls of Steel]

King Bargs

of the Lazy Kingdom.

[Multipaul]

of the Lazy Kingdom.

He could school you at hoops. Lazy poster.

[Balls of Steel]

He could school you at hoops. Lazy poster.

Paul, if he didn't then he'd be a lot worse than I thought. You need to ease up and leave some Kool-Aid for other people bro. I still like you and your posts.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

See the funny part is, if you compare Barg's stats with Durant's its pretty close.
46%FG, 20+pts a game, 6 rebs a game. Dont tell me Durant is a way better defender than Bargs. He is more athletic, well coz he's slimmer, lighter and smaller, but the fact of the matter is, what Durant is doing offensively and defensively, Bargs is not far off.

But I dont think ive ever heard Durant being called lazy, worst defensive player, worst rebounder. Why? coz he has ibaka, green, westbrook, harden and krstic. Get the point?

Now, is he a franchise player? IMO, no. Can he be one? potentially, if you surround him with the right players. Does that make him better than Bosh, no, but Bargnani is workable. As far as i know, he doesnt worry himself with blogging, tweeting and all that crap. Smitch pretty much tortured him under his wing and yet he didnt break, he didnt ask for a trade, he didnt play smug.

Even i cringe when Bargnani, Defense and Rebounding is mentioned in the same category but you cannot deny the fact that his upside is way more valuable that his weaknesses. A 7 foot guy who can break guys of the dribble, play inside and outside is just toooooo good to pass on. See it this way, if you put Bargnani with the spurs, no doubt, that team is going to win titles for years. Why? Because his scoring abilities will take a load of off Duncan and since Duncan is a very solid defensive player, that will mask Bargnani's so called inadequacies. So instead of giving Bargs to San Antonio and allow them to win titles, why dont we keep Bargs and get him a Duncan type player to play with and get this team wins.

[Tim W.]

See the funny part is, if you compare Barg's stats with Durant's its pretty close.
46%FG, 20+pts a game, 6 rebs a game. Dont tell me Durant is a way better defender than Bargs. He is more athletic, well coz he's slimmer, lighter and smaller, but the fact of the matter is, what Durant is doing offensively and defensively, Bargs is not far off.

But I dont think ive ever heard Durant being called lazy, worst defensive player, worst rebounder. Why? coz he has ibaka, green, westbrook, harden and krstic. Get the point?

Now, is he a franchise player? IMO, no. Can he be one? potentially, if you surround him with the right players. Does that make him better than Bosh, no, but Bargnani is workable. As far as i know, he doesnt worry himself with blogging, tweeting and all that crap. Smitch pretty much tortured him under his wing and yet he didnt break, he didnt ask for a trade, he didnt play smug.

Even i cringe when Bargnani, Defense and Rebounding is mentioned in the same category but you cannot deny the fact that his upside is way more valuable that his weaknesses. A 7 foot guy who can break guys of the dribble, play inside and outside is just toooooo good to pass on. See it this way, if you put Bargnani with the spurs, no doubt, that team is going to win titles for years. Why? Because his scoring abilities will take a load of off Duncan and since Duncan is a very solid defensive player, that will mask Bargnani's so called inadequacies. So instead of giving Bargs to San Antonio and allow them to win titles, why dont we keep Bargs and get him a Duncan type player to play with and get this team wins.

Did you really just compare Durant and Bargnani? Well, first of all, Durant is a SF, not a big man. Like it or not it matters when discussing rebounding numbers. Secondly, Durant is a good defensive player. And no one has ever called Durant lazy because he's a maniacally hard worker who gives 100% when he's on the floor.

I've got to say, this is a pet peeve. You simply looking at numbers and saying "well, this guy puts up about the same numbers as this guy, so obviously he isn't THAT much better." Bargnani's numbers compare more closely to Beasley, but you didn't choose to compare those two. Why?

The biggest issue I have is that you completely disregard just how big a liability Bargnani is on defense. A guy like Durant isn't a liability when he's not scoring. Bargnani is.

And you simply can't "cover" a player being a liability on defense, ESPECIALLY a big man. It always rears it's ugly head, especially during the playoffs. Teams are able to focus in on a bad defender and take advantage of it. The Spurs don't acquire poor defensive players (or if they do they don't keep them) because they have figured out you simply can't win with them.

Bottom line, it's easier to trade Bargnani and acquire another scorer than it is to cover up his glaring liabilities.

[TexLanencia]

See the funny part is, if you compare Barg's stats with Durant's its pretty close.
46%FG, 20+pts a game, 6 rebs a game. Dont tell me Durant is a way better defender than Bargs. He is more athletic, well coz he's slimmer, lighter and smaller, but the fact of the matter is, what Durant is doing offensively and defensively, Bargs is not far off.

But I dont think ive ever heard Durant being called lazy, worst defensive player, worst rebounder. Why? coz he has ibaka, green, westbrook, harden and krstic. Get the point?

Now, is he a franchise player? IMO, no. Can he be one? potentially, if you surround him with the right players. Does that make him better than Bosh, no, but Bargnani is workable. As far as i know, he doesnt worry himself with blogging, tweeting and all that crap. Smitch pretty much tortured him under his wing and yet he didnt break, he didnt ask for a trade, he didnt play smug.

Even i cringe when Bargnani, Defense and Rebounding is mentioned in the same category but you cannot deny the fact that his upside is way more valuable that his weaknesses. A 7 foot guy who can break guys of the dribble, play inside and outside is just toooooo good to pass on. See it this way, if you put Bargnani with the spurs, no doubt, that team is going to win titles for years. Why? Because his scoring abilities will take a load of off Duncan and since Duncan is a very solid defensive player, that will mask Bargnani's so called inadequacies. So instead of giving Bargs to San Antonio and allow them to win titles, why dont we keep Bargs and get him a Duncan type player to play with and get this team wins.

Hi guys, i'm an italian basket fan and in the last two years i've give to the raptors a lot of mine night hours. And in those years Raptors Republic has been very precious, for news, comments, discussions... and obviously, for my first post on this forum i've chose the age-old Bargnani's diatribe. Is he an all-star? is he a burst? is he a franchise-player?
For what i saw, and for what i know about him, he's fair enough that offensively is a piece that everyone would have on his team. Defensively, he's some kind of pussy, especially at the rim's fight. My point, to regain an early post on this discussion, is about the Nowitzky-Bargnani comparison. History and career cleary speak in favour of the German wing, but technically they are very similar. Same size, same kind of plays (more athleticism for Andrea, more self-confidence and shooting ability for dirk), same lazy legs on D. Now i give to you a question: Is there anyone, all over the world, who can considere Dirk as a Center? If he's to play in the raptors team as a center, will he be the same player he is right now? i don't think so. Therefore, Why andrea is a center with signifant defensive liability, and Dirk is a power forward who deserve to be protected by his team's organization?