View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3081
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Did you really just compare Durant and Bargnani? Well, first of all, Durant is a SF, not a big man. Like it or not it matters when discussing rebounding numbers. Secondly, Durant is a good defensive player. And no one has ever called Durant lazy because he's a maniacally hard worker who gives 100% when he's on the floor.

    I've got to say, this is a pet peeve. You simply looking at numbers and saying "well, this guy puts up about the same numbers as this guy, so obviously he isn't THAT much better." Bargnani's numbers compare more closely to Beasley, but you didn't choose to compare those two. Why?

    The biggest issue I have is that you completely disregard just how big a liability Bargnani is on defense. A guy like Durant isn't a liability when he's not scoring. Bargnani is.

    And you simply can't "cover" a player being a liability on defense, ESPECIALLY a big man. It always rears it's ugly head, especially during the playoffs. Teams are able to focus in on a bad defender and take advantage of it. The Spurs don't acquire poor defensive players (or if they do they don't keep them) because they have figured out you simply can't win with them.

    Bottom line, it's easier to trade Bargnani and acquire another scorer than it is to cover up his glaring liabilities.
    hahaha i knew you were gonna be red in the face when you read my bargnani-durant "comparison". lets put it this way, if bargs and durant traded places right now, will the raps and OKC trade places in the standings as well? Can Durant make a barely-triple double machine out of Calderon? a high-leaping shotblocker and rebounder out of dorsey? Im not comparing the two player to player stat for stat, but by what they bring to their respective teams.

    And Bargs is not hardworking? You mean he sleepwalks his way to 21pts per game, 6 rebs and a blk per game? well if you think he doesnt work hard then the more we should keep him coz what more if he works hard?? 40pts per game? 20 rebs a game? yikes.

    I didnt compare him to beasley because he's on a crappy team as well. See if you put beasley in OKC and Durant in 'Sota, will the team wins be different as well? You tell me.

    I think its very easy for you to say that a player is a bad defensive player because you cant quantify defense. Thats why you think your arguments are always right because youre defending something that you cant really put a number on. Its easy to say, oh watch the game and youll see. Defense wins games, but its not the only thing that wins games. If you put perkins, barnes, battier, ronnie brewer and rondo in one team. all good defensive players, who the hell is going to score? put up 20+ pts? please dont go on a novelty act and say, oh, their offense will come from their defense, um, i dont think so.

    i didnt say bargnani is a defensive genius, but he isnt just standing in the paint when somebody comes in. he challenges, tries to block, moves his feet and what not. he is just not built as a perkins-type player that you want him to be. but if youre putting that against him and looking past his scoring abilities then i think youre just being a hater. if you really want to compare defense vs offense, would you really think perkins will win a game of one on one with bargs? seriously?

    its not that the spurs dont acquire poor defensive players, they play good team defense. one breaks, the other covers. the sad part with the raps is bargnani is their last line of defense and that what exposes him. put a real defensive big beside him and it will work.

    and yes i agree, its easier to trade bargs because a slashing, jumpshooting 3 point shooting 7 footer is quite a rarity in the NBA.

    i think you should take out your microscope off of bargs and think its a five man defense, five man offense. put him beside a defensive big and he'll win you games. no doubt.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Jan 28th, 2011 at 04:08 PM.

  2. #3082
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Keeping Bargnani

    As an advocate of keeping Andrea, I look at how he can fit in, and how the Raptors can adapt to off-set his weaknesses. Here are some numbers to illustrate my point, and some follow-up thoughts:

    • Andrea's numbers: 21.4 ppg 5.7 Reb 1.8 apg .9 Blocks 4.7 FTA .819 FT%
    • Dirk's --- numbers: 23.1 ppg 6.9 Reb 2.4 apg .7 Blocks 6.1 FTA .872 FT%


    As you look at the above stats, one knows that Dallas is playing hot (outside of the injuries to Dirk), while Toronto is playing the opposite (with all its' injuries). The difference is, Dallas has adapted with Chandler, along with some great defensive support - while Toronto has neither of those latter attributes.

    Now Andrea is not Dirk, but then again, Dirk makes twice the salary that Bargnani makes. Wouldn't that extra 10 million allow us to spend elsewhere, and try to make up the difference in what Dirk brings to the table (over Andrea).

    One of the biggest questions I have, when judging stats & comparing the two, is wondering why Bargnani's listed as a Center, while Dirk is a Power Forward? If anything, they are the closest in respective styles, and unique to traditional Big men.

    For example, he's the 3rd worst rebounding 7 footer ever.
    I checked out this stat line [provided by WhatWhat]. Dirk is listed as the 36th worst rebounding 7 footer, so that sorta shows how this stat is somewhat BS - and I'm not saying that rebounding is BS. In fact, if you check out facets to this unique statistic, Bargnani fares much better in other factors. Choosing rebounding as one's only correlation to what is a good 7 footer, is rather limiting in its' analysis. Andrea (like Dirk) is not your atypical Center. In fact, AB is more like Dirk as a PF.
    .
    Here's the thing about Andrea. There is NO PLAYER on the current Raptors, who can shoot from anywhere on the Court, as he does:
    • Jose can make threes, but he can't stand in the Post and take a pass (with few exceptions)
    • Amir, and Davis can't shoot a 3
    • Demar can't shoot a 3, nor can he stand in the Post and take any pass (on a normal basis)
    • Kleiza is about the closest, but we all know what he's providing these days
    • Weems, Barbosa & Bayless are lesser versions of Jose's range


    Now before someone tears apart what these above players can & can't do, these statements are reflective of what is normal. Yes, Jose & Demar can score in the paint, but they can't stand there (normally), and grab a pass. Not if another Big is impeding such an event.
    .
    Bottom line is, if Dallas can figure it out, why can't we. AB will not be Dirk, but he is cheaper. And that allows financial room for other options.
    .

  3. #3083
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    As an advocate of keeping Andrea, I look at how he can fit in, and how the Raptors can adapt to off-set his weaknesses. Here are some numbers to illustrate my point, and some follow-up thoughts:

    • Andrea's numbers: 21.4 ppg 5.7 Reb 1.8 apg .9 Blocks 4.7 FTA .819 FT%
    • Dirk's --- numbers: 23.1 ppg 6.9 Reb 2.4 apg .7 Blocks 6.1 FTA .872 FT%


    As you look at the above stats, one knows that Dallas is playing hot (outside of the injuries to Dirk), while Toronto is playing the opposite (with all its' injuries). The difference is, Dallas has adapted with Chandler, along with some great defensive support - while Toronto has neither of those latter attributes.

    Now Andrea is not Dirk, but then again, Dirk makes twice the salary that Bargnani makes. Wouldn't that extra 10 million allow us to spend elsewhere, and try to make up the difference in what Dirk brings to the table (over Andrea).

    One of the biggest questions I have, when judging stats & comparing the two, is wondering why Bargnani's listed as a Center, while Dirk is a Power Forward? If anything, they are the closest in respective styles, and unique to traditional Big men.



    I checked out this stat line [provided by WhatWhat]. Dirk is listed as the 36th worst rebounding 7 footer, so that sorta shows how this stat is somewhat BS - and I'm not saying that rebounding is BS. In fact, if you check out facets to this unique statistic, Bargnani fares much better in other factors. Choosing rebounding as one's only correlation to what is a good 7 footer, is rather limiting in its' analysis. Andrea (like Dirk) is not your atypical Center. In fact, AB is more like Dirk as a PF.
    .
    Here's the thing about Andrea. There is NO PLAYER on the current Raptors, who can shoot from anywhere on the Court, as he does:
    • Jose can make threes, but he can't stand in the Post and take a pass (with few exceptions)
    • Amir, and Davis can't shoot a 3
    • Demar can't shoot a 3, nor can he stand in the Post and take any pass (on a normal basis)
    • Kleiza is about the closest, but we all know what he's providing these days
    • Weems, Barbosa & Bayless are lesser versions of Jose's range


    Now before someone tears apart what these above players can & can't do, these statements are reflective of what is normal. Yes, Jose & Demar can score in the paint, but they can't stand there (normally), and grab a pass. Not if another Big is impeding such an event.
    .
    Bottom line is, if Dallas can figure it out, why can't we. AB will not be Dirk, but he is cheaper. And that allows financial room for other options.
    .
    I agree with you man!

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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    As an advocate of keeping Andrea, I look at how he can fit in, and how the Raptors can adapt to off-set his weaknesses. Here are some numbers to illustrate my point, and some follow-up thoughts:

    • Andrea's numbers: 21.4 ppg 5.7 Reb 1.8 apg .9 Blocks 4.7 FTA .819 FT%
    • Dirk's --- numbers: 23.1 ppg 6.9 Reb 2.4 apg .7 Blocks 6.1 FTA .872 FT%


    As you look at the above stats, one knows that Dallas is playing hot (outside of the injuries to Dirk), while Toronto is playing the opposite (with all its' injuries). The difference is, Dallas has adapted with Chandler, along with some great defensive support - while Toronto has neither of those latter attributes.

    Now Andrea is not Dirk, but then again, Dirk makes twice the salary that Bargnani makes. Wouldn't that extra 10 million allow us to spend elsewhere, and try to make up the difference in what Dirk brings to the table (over Andrea).

    One of the biggest questions I have, when judging stats & comparing the two, is wondering why Bargnani's listed as a Center, while Dirk is a Power Forward? If anything, they are the closest in respective styles, and unique to traditional Big men.



    I checked out this stat line [provided by WhatWhat]. Dirk is listed as the 36th worst rebounding 7 footer, so that sorta shows how this stat is somewhat BS - and I'm not saying that rebounding is BS. In fact, if you check out facets to this unique statistic, Bargnani fares much better in other factors. Choosing rebounding as one's only correlation to what is a good 7 footer, is rather limiting in its' analysis. Andrea (like Dirk) is not your atypical Center. In fact, AB is more like Dirk as a PF.
    .
    Here's the thing about Andrea. There is NO PLAYER on the current Raptors, who can shoot from anywhere on the Court, as he does:
    • Jose can make threes, but he can't stand in the Post and take a pass (with few exceptions)
    • Amir, and Davis can't shoot a 3
    • Demar can't shoot a 3, nor can he stand in the Post and take any pass (on a normal basis)
    • Kleiza is about the closest, but we all know what he's providing these days
    • Weems, Barbosa & Bayless are lesser versions of Jose's range


    Now before someone tears apart what these above players can & can't do, these statements are reflective of what is normal. Yes, Jose & Demar can score in the paint, but they can't stand there (normally), and grab a pass. Not if another Big is impeding such an event.
    .
    Bottom line is, if Dallas can figure it out, why can't we. AB will not be Dirk, but he is cheaper. And that allows financial room for other options.
    .
    Good one man. AB is really our only reliable offensive weapon. DD is getting there, but makes alot of mistakes.

    Can't stand ppl that say Bargs is "Lazy" or "Not Hard Working". Must be nice for these ppl to sit on their pedestals and brand a guy who is dropping 25 pts a game "lazy".

    Typical Bargs haters, Tim W, Mango etc. They just hate for the sake of hating. Pay them no mind, they will just keep arguing even when they know they r wrong.

  5. #3085
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    hahaha i knew you were gonna be red in the face when you read my bargnani-durant "comparison". lets put it this way, if bargs and durant traded places right now, will the raps and OKC trade places in the standings as well? Can Durant make a barely-triple double machine out of Calderon? a high-leaping shotblocker and rebounder out of dorsey? Im not comparing the two player to player stat for stat, but what they bring to their respective teams.
    If LeBron and Bargnani switched places, would the records reverse? Or Kobe and Bargnani. It doesn't mean they're comparable. This is obviously a ridiculous question. Durant is obviously surrounded by better players, but that doesn't mean that he is not a very big reason why Oklahoma is on pace to win 53 games this year. Hell, if Kleiza and Durant switched places, Oklahoma would still be a playoff team, most likely, but Toronto probably would be, too.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    And Bargs is not hardworking? You mean he sleepwalks his way to 21pts per game, 6 rebs and a blk per game? well if you think he doesnt work hard then the more we should keep him coz what more if he works hard?? 40pts per game? 20 rebs a game? yikes.
    I never said Bargnani was lazy. You said no one thought that Durant was lazy, and that's because he's not. Bargnani isn't lazy, but he's a coaster. He coasts through games and for large parts of them he has no positive effect.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think its very easy for you to say that a player is a bad defensive player because you cant quantify defense. Thats why you think your arguments are always right because youre defending something that you cant really put a number on. Its easy to say, oh watch the game and youll see. Defense wins games, but its not the only thing that wins games. If you put perkins, barnes, battier, ronnie brewer and rondo in one team. all good defensive players, who the hell is going to score? put up 20+ pts? please dont go on a novelty act and say, oh, their offense will come from their defense, um, i dont think so.

    i didnt say bargnani is a defensive genius, but he isnt just standing in the paint when somebody comes in. he challenges, tries to block, moves his feet and what not. he is just not built as a perkins-type player that you want him to be. but if youre putting that against him and looking past his scoring abilities then i think youre just being a hater. if you really want to compare defense vs offense, would you really think perkins will win a game of one on one with bargs? seriously?
    Well, there are lots of ways you can quantify defense, but you don't really have to if you know what to look for. It's pretty obvious Bargnani is a bad defensive player. I don't need stats to tell me that, but advanced stats DO back me up on this. This defense (no pun intended) of Bargnani only looking bad on defense because he's surrounded by bad defensive players doesn't work when you consider that Amir is considered to be a good defensive player playing on the same team.

    And you're right that a team of Perkins, Barnes, Battier, Brewer and Rondo would have trouble scoring. The problem with your argument is that you don't have to be a bad offensive player to be a good defensive player and visa versa. I'd peg six of the top 10 scorers in the league as above average defenders. Not average, but above average defenders.

    Yes, you need to score, but why do you have to have an extremely poor defender doing it for you? That doesn't make much sense.

    And I agree that Bargnani would win a game of 1 on 1 with Perkins. Of course, the NBA is not a game of 1 on 1. It's a team game. And in a team game anyone can score. One night one guy can have a big night and another night someone else can. You don't NEED one guy scoring 20 ppg. In fact Boston has no one who scores 20 ppg on the team, yet they are among the best in the league. You can't let your teammates play defense, while you don't, though. EVERYONE needs to play defense in order to win. Especially in the playoffs.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    its not that the spurs dont acquire poor defensive players, they play good team defense. one breaks, the other covers. the sad part with the raps is bargnani is their last line of defense and that what exposes him. put a real defensive big beside him and it will work.
    Actually, the Spurs value defensive players over offensive players. If you can name me one below average defensive player the Spurs have kept for more than one season I will concede this argument.

    It doesn't matter how good the system or other players are. A weak link is a weak link and will hurt the entire team.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    and yes i agree, its easier to trade bargs because a slashing, jumpshooting 3 point shooting 7 footer is quite a rarity in the NBA.
    Yes, it is. And if Bargnani wasn't an overall liability on the floor, it might mean a bit more. There have been plenty of players who had games we hadn't seen before, but the ones that had an impact were the ones who proved to have an overall positive effect while on the floor.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i think you should take out your microscope off of bargs and think its a five man defense, five man offense. put him beside a defensive big and he'll win you games. no doubt.
    Well, in fact there is doubt. If you put Bargnani beside Dwight Howard, they can certainly win games. Two problems with that, however. One is that there is only one Dwight Howard, and two, they still wouldn't win a Championship because opposing offenses would key in on Bargnani, especially during the playoffs, and expose him. Right now, Orlando has a front line of Howard and Bass, who's an above average defensive player, and they're still struggling defensively. That should tell you plenty right there.
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  6. #3086
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Good one man. AB is really our only reliable offensive weapon. DD is getting there, but makes alot of mistakes.

    Can't stand ppl that say Bargs is "Lazy" or "Not Hard Working". Must be nice for these ppl to sit on their pedestals and brand a guy who is dropping 25 pts a game "lazy".

    Typical Bargs haters, Tim W, Mango etc. They just hate for the sake of hating. Pay them no mind, they will just keep arguing even when they know they r wrong.
    People might say oh, they tried to rebuild around Bosh but he wasnt a franchise player and now that Barg is also not a franchise player, why rebuild around him? The key here is - dont make the same mistakes as you did with Bosh.

    Dont ask him, just do it. Bargs doesnt care who you put around him, he'll do his thing and not be bothered. We all know scoring is his best asset, so let him score. get a defensive big and PG and put them beside Bargs. If we won 40 games last year with 2 high scoring forwards (killer Bs) who dont play defense, how can we not win the same or even more games with 2 legit scorers (demar and bargs) and adding a defensive big and PG?

  7. #3087
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    (killer Bs)
    Sir, there's only one Killer Bees. And Bosh and Bargs weren't it.


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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    I started a thread yesterday that focused on the speculation of the team showcasing Calderon's talents coming up to the trade deadline. I was happy with the reply but it sparked an interest in this subject. No this isn't a trade proposal so don't move it to the other forum. I want to hear people's opinions about Bargnani and why in my other thread they'd like to see him go before Calderon.

    First off I am not oblivious to the guy's weaknesses. He obviously has defensive issues that we would all like to see him get rid of. I'll ask the question though, if he learnt how to play it, would you want to keep him? He'd be by far the best lottery pick of that year if he can figure it out.

    Fact is Bargnani is a good basketball player with a weakness, but if you trade everyone because of a single weakness then you'll probably end up moving everyone on every team. Even Carmelo is a one dimensional player, but I digress. I'll start the thread off by saying that Bargnani has too much upside to move him just yet. He's not a Kwame Brown who is expendable because he's just like the next guy. He has shown us flashes of what he is capable of and he will keep improving. The opinion that I've seen around the league is that centers don't really figure things out until they're about 28 or 29. haha, maybe he's even the opposite of Dwight howard. Dwight had the defense down and is just now learning how to play offense.

    What do you think? Is he bad enough that he should be traded or should they keep developing him?
    Bargs weakness is at a crucial position. does not rebound, does not play both help and man defense and is not efficient with shots other players on his team rebound for, that is a hell lot of weakness right there for a big man.

  9. #3089
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    (I'd like to see Calderon go before Bargnani.)

    I was a huge Bargnani fan, he was my favourite player on the team, but the time is waiting to his defense to improve has passed. He just doesn't have the innate defensive instincts. Maybe he's overthinking things, trying to override his natural guard tendencies. It slows him down, and that time spent thinking "I have to help here" is crucial.

    If we got realistic, and just made his a 6th man and reduced his minutes, I'd be willing to keep him. He would murder 2nd units, and could get away with his D. With the reduced minutes, he'd probably go back to looking almost passable, like he was last year. But that's unlikely, almost as unlikely as him being moved. So we're still going to try and continue to contort the entire roster to justify him starting. For example, he's the 3rd worst rebounding 7 footer ever. (That have played over 900 minutes, sorted by rebounding rate in ascending order. 128 players on that list.) I just can't see it. You can think that he's going to improve, but would be a drastic and unheard of improvement as far as I can tell.

    But I'd rather get a combo guard to be our 6th man, find a defensive center to start and get a scoring SF. I'm tired of hide starting players on the defensive end. You hide them on the offense. ("But, but DeRozan..." 1. He's not nearly as problematic as Calderon or Bargnani are. Not even close. 2. He's shown improvement of late...very late. 3. He has the work ethic and said that he wants to be an all-around player. 4. If he's still *that* bad defensively in 3 years or so, I'll want him gone too.)

    That just my opinion. I just can't see us succeeding with either of them starting. I'm still adamant about how terrible the defensive combo of Calderon and Bargnani are.
    +1.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    sir, there's only one killer bees. And bosh and bargs weren't it.

    lmao

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    lmao
    you laugh now, but that's a front court that would strike fear into the hearts of the opposition.

    ask the hart foundation.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    you laugh now, but that's a front court that would strike fear into the hearts of the opposition.

    ask the hart foundation.
    What about axe and smash? DEMOLITION

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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    As an advocate of keeping Andrea, I look at how he can fit in, and how the Raptors can adapt to off-set his weaknesses. Here are some numbers to illustrate my point, and some follow-up thoughts:

    • Andrea's numbers: 21.4 ppg 5.7 Reb 1.8 apg .9 Blocks 4.7 FTA .819 FT%
    • Dirk's --- numbers: 23.1 ppg 6.9 Reb 2.4 apg .7 Blocks 6.1 FTA .872 FT%


    As you look at the above stats, one knows that Dallas is playing hot (outside of the injuries to Dirk), while Toronto is playing the opposite (with all its' injuries). The difference is, Dallas has adapted with Chandler, along with some great defensive support - while Toronto has neither of those latter attributes.

    Now Andrea is not Dirk, but then again, Dirk makes twice the salary that Bargnani makes. Wouldn't that extra 10 million allow us to spend elsewhere, and try to make up the difference in what Dirk brings to the table (over Andrea).

    One of the biggest questions I have, when judging stats & comparing the two, is wondering why Bargnani's listed as a Center, while Dirk is a Power Forward? If anything, they are the closest in respective styles, and unique to traditional Big men.



    I checked out this stat line [provided by WhatWhat]. Dirk is listed as the 36th worst rebounding 7 footer, so that sorta shows how this stat is somewhat BS - and I'm not saying that rebounding is BS. In fact, if you check out facets to this unique statistic, Bargnani fares much better in other factors. Choosing rebounding as one's only correlation to what is a good 7 footer, is rather limiting in its' analysis. Andrea (like Dirk) is not your atypical Center. In fact, AB is more like Dirk as a PF.
    .
    Here's the thing about Andrea. There is NO PLAYER on the current Raptors, who can shoot from anywhere on the Court, as he does:
    • Jose can make threes, but he can't stand in the Post and take a pass (with few exceptions)
    • Amir, and Davis can't shoot a 3
    • Demar can't shoot a 3, nor can he stand in the Post and take any pass (on a normal basis)
    • Kleiza is about the closest, but we all know what he's providing these days
    • Weems, Barbosa & Bayless are lesser versions of Jose's range


    Now before someone tears apart what these above players can & can't do, these statements are reflective of what is normal. Yes, Jose & Demar can score in the paint, but they can't stand there (normally), and grab a pass. Not if another Big is impeding such an event.
    .
    Bottom line is, if Dallas can figure it out, why can't we. AB will not be Dirk, but he is cheaper. And that allows financial room for other options.
    .
    No, Andrea is not Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer, rebounder, passer and, most importantly, defender. And Dallas only made it to the Finals with Dirk the year he had an MVP season, with stats of 26 ppg and 9 rpg. And 3 out of the last 5 years Dallas lost in the first round despite averaging 56 wins. Teams without a good defensive front line underperform in the playoffs. I've got lots of history to back me up on this one.

    And as I've argued, it doesn't matter how much a player makes if he doesn't have a positive effect on his team while on the floor.

    And it's true that Bargnani can do what no one else on the team can do. But that says more about the team, than anything. And really, who cares. This team isn't built to win. Everyone agrees the team needs more talent in order to win. And it's a lot more difficult to find a great defensive center who isn't a liability on offense than a great scorer who isn't a liability on defense.

    I would never argue that it would be extremely difficult to find another player who can do what Bargnani can do. But, really, what does that matter if he's a liability on the court? It's hard to find another player who can do what Turkoglu does (a 6-10 player who can handle the ball and pass like a guard), or Calderon (a highly efficient offensive player who shots a high percentage while racking up a lot of assists and few turnovers), or a multitude of players who have unique skillsets. Unfortunately unique skillsets don't win games.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If LeBron and Bargnani switched places, would the records reverse? Or Kobe and Bargnani. It doesn't mean they're comparable. This is obviously a ridiculous question. Durant is obviously surrounded by better players, but that doesn't mean that he is not a very big reason why Oklahoma is on pace to win 53 games this year. Hell, if Kleiza and Durant switched places, Oklahoma would still be a playoff team, most likely, but Toronto probably would be, too.
    Funny but you just proved my point. Youre not downing on Durant coz he has the support cast that gets him wins. If Bargs had the same cast around him, i dont think youd be point him out. If he has the wins to back up his scoring, everybody will be happy, including you.

    I never said Bargnani was lazy. You said no one thought that Durant was lazy, and that's because he's not. Bargnani isn't lazy, but he's a coaster. He coasts through games and for large parts of them he has no positive effect.
    Youre right, by the same token, im not saying Boykins is short coz he cant dunk, im just saying he's vertically challenged. Gimme a break.

    Well, there are lots of ways you can quantify defense, but you don't really have to if you know what to look for. It's pretty obvious Bargnani is a bad defensive player. I don't need stats to tell me that, but advanced stats DO back me up on this. This defense (no pun intended) of Bargnani only looking bad on defense because he's surrounded by bad defensive players doesn't work when you consider that Amir is considered to be a good defensive player playing on the same team.
    Oh yes, Amir is a good defensive player. 2 fouls in the 1st qtr. Perkins is a good defensive player but i dont seem him getting quick fouls. And dont tell me Amir gets fouls coz Bargnani cant guard players and Amir has to be the last line of defense. Amir is a good defensive player, when he does play D. But when he doesnt play good D, he gets fouls. The same with Bargs, he plays good D on a post up, he gets a block. He doesnt play good D, you write something about him. Its two-way street, so to speak.

    And you're right that a team of Perkins, Barnes, Battier, Brewer and Rondo would have trouble scoring. The problem with your argument is that you don't have to be a bad offensive player to be a good defensive player and visa versa. I'd peg six of the top 10 scorers in the league as above average defenders. Not average, but above average defenders.
    The top 10 scorers in the league has a pau gasol, joakim noah, serge ibaka, joel anthony, deandre jordan to save their asses when they let out a defensive fart. bargs? he's 17th in the league in scoring. and he has joey dorsey to watch his back on D. yikes.

    Yes, you need to score, but why do you have to have an extremely poor defender doing it for you? That doesn't make much sense.
    coz most, if not all, the best defenders in the league is a liability in scoring. thats why artest needs kobe, turiaf needs amare, so on so forth.

    And I agree that Bargnani would win a game of 1 on 1 with Perkins. Of course, the NBA is not a game of 1 on 1. It's a team game. And in a team game anyone can score. One night one guy can have a big night and another night someone else can. You don't NEED one guy scoring 20 ppg. In fact Boston has no one who scores 20 ppg on the team, yet they are among the best in the league. You can't let your teammates play defense, while you don't, though. EVERYONE needs to play defense in order to win. Especially in the playoffs.
    yeah but if you got 4 guys scoring more then 15 pts a game. that aint gonna hurt either. how many 15 pt scorers do the raptors have?

    Actually, the Spurs value defensive players over offensive players. If you can name me one below average defensive player the Spurs have kept for more than one season I will concede this argument.
    I dont know. And this thread is not about the spurs. thats my alibi.

    It doesn't matter how good the system or other players are. A weak link is a weak link and will hurt the entire team.
    every team has a weak link. otherwise, that team will go 82 and 0. think about it.

    Yes, it is. And if Bargnani wasn't an overall liability on the floor, it might mean a bit more. There have been plenty of players who had games we hadn't seen before, but the ones that had an impact were the ones who proved to have an overall positive effect while on the floor.
    this is the NBA. if you dont have a positive effect on the floor, youll be in the D-League or somewhere in Europe. And Bargs is still here, so i guess......

    Well, in fact there is doubt. If you put Bargnani beside Dwight Howard, they can certainly win games. Two problems with that, however. One is that there is only one Dwight Howard, and two, they still wouldn't win a Championship because opposing offenses would key in on Bargnani, especially during the playoffs, and expose him. Right now, Orlando has a front line of Howard and Bass, who's an above average defensive player, and they're still struggling defensively. That should tell you plenty right there.
    yeah but Bass isnt scoring 20+ pts a game like Bargs. Think of it the other way my friend, make the other team work hard on its defense and you wont have to worry about yours as much.

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    Bargnani would be a lot better playing at the 4 with a defensive big at the 5 we also need a legit starting Small Forward ie. Perry Jones (6'11") freak of nature. Then our team would look drastically different. That would be a good direction to head towards.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    lmao
    That was rust. I am sayin Chris Bosh is the one on the right haha. I'll spare Bargnani this time.

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    Quote Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
    Bargnani would be a lot better playing at the 4 with a defensive big at the 5 we also need a legit starting Small Forward ie. Perry Jones (6'11") freak of nature. Then our team would look drastically different. That would be a good direction to head towards.
    This is what I was saying... If the Raptors traded Calderon for Chandler and were able to sign Matt Barnes, this could've been a playoff team, even if its a 1 and done team.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Funny but you just proved my point. Youre not downing on Durant coz he has the support cast that gets him wins. If Bargs had the same cast around him, i dont think youd be point him out. If he has the wins to back up his scoring, everybody will be happy, including you.
    No, I didn't prove your point. If you take away Durant completely and don't replace him with anyone, Oklahoma is still a playoff team. If Bargnani had the same cast as Durant does, he'd still be a liability on the defensive end and hurt the team.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Youre right, by the same token, im not saying Boykins is short coz he cant dunk, im just saying he's vertically challenged. Gimme a break.
    Short and vertically challenged mean exactly the same thing. I have never said that Bargnani is lazy. A player can't become the player that Bargnani has by being lazy. Eddy Curry is lazy. Lots of guys who have loads of talent but never fulfilled their potential could be characterized as lazy. Bargnani plays a certain way, and it's a matter of fact. It's not lazy.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Oh yes, Amir is a good defensive player. 2 fouls in the 1st qtr. Perkins is a good defensive player but i dont seem him getting quick fouls. And dont tell me Amir gets fouls coz Bargnani cant guard players and Amir has to be the last line of defense. Amir is a good defensive player, when he does play D. But when he doesnt play good D, he gets fouls. The same with Bargs, he plays good D on a post up, he gets a block. He doesnt play good D, you write something about him. Its two-way street, so to speak.
    Amir's biggest weakness is his penchant for fouling. It often prevents him from playing more than 30 mpg. The fact of the matter is, however, when he is on the floor, most of the time he plays good defense. Most of the time Bargnani is on the floor he is not playing good defense. His post defense is vastly overrated. He's a decent post defender against certain specific types of players making certain types of moves. But overall, he's not a good man to man defender or team defender. And Bargnani plays bad defense FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more than Amir commits a foul.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    The top 10 scorers in the league has a pau gasol, joakim noah, serge ibaka, joel anthony, deandre jordan to save their asses when they let out a defensive fart. bargs? he's 17th in the league in scoring. and he has joey dorsey to watch his back on D. yikes.
    Actually, he's got Amir Johnson to watch his back, and I'd pick him over Joel Anthony and probably DeAndre Jordan. And Kobe, Rose, Durant, LeBron and even Eric Gordon wouldn't suddenly be bad defenders if they played on the Raptors. What does it matter who you have as a teammate? Either you're a bad defensive player or you're not.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    coz most, if not all, the best defenders in the league is a liability in scoring. thats why artest needs kobe, turiaf needs amare, so on so forth.
    The 10 ALl-Defensive players last season were LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Howard, Gerald Wallace, Rondo, Duncan, Sefolosha, Josh Smith and Varejao. Only 2 would I classify as below average offensive players. And Artest isn't nearly the player he used to be, either offensively or defensively. You seem to forget that Artest has a career scoring average of 15 ppg. Hardly an offensive liability.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    yeah but if you got 4 guys scoring more then 15 pts a game. that aint gonna hurt either. how many 15 pt scorers do the raptors have?
    Well, right now they have two. I'm not arguing that the Raptors don't need to add talent, though.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    every team has a weak link. otherwise, that team will go 82 and 0. think about it.
    Actually, you can lose games and not have a weak link. Players are human. Sometimes they have bad games, sometimes they have good games. And some weaknesses hurt teams more than others.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    this is the NBA. if you dont have a positive effect on the floor, youll be in the D-League or somewhere in Europe. And Bargs is still here, so i guess......
    Loads of players in the NBA have a negative effect on their team. Some don't play very much, some play, but on bad teams, and most are young players who teams hope will improve. The Raptors are full of players who have a negative effect on the team. Hell, DeRozan has a negative effect on the team, right now, but since he's only played a season and a half, you hope that will change.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    yeah but Bass isnt scoring 20+ pts a game like Bargs. Think of it the other way my friend, make the other team work hard on its defense and you wont have to worry about yours as much.
    No offense, but I hope I never play basketball with you. And the fact of the matter is that whoever Bargnani is defending almost always has a much better than average game. When you play a team like Denver, you expect Carmelo to get his 25 ppg. That's pretty much a given. What hurts you is when Nene scores 25, as well as Carmelo.
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    My point is that many of you seem to be so worried about what you can do to hide Bargnani's weaknesses. Instead of trying to figure out how to make Bargnani LESS of a liability, why not simply get players that aren't liabilities? Doesn't that make so much more sense?
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