View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3301
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    I think we've identified the problem here: you value point production far more than you do rebounding and defense. You can't call defense and rebounding issues 'nominal' and expect not to get a strong response in here. Bargs provides one single positive contribution, his offense, but there's more to the game (and specifically winning) than just putting points on the board.
    scoring is his biggest asset but he definitely doesnt just score. 5rebs a game, almost 2 asts, .6stls and .9blks is nothing to sneeze at. Just because he's 7 feet we've all labeled him as a "rebounder" (im guilty as well) but he just doesnt have the knack for it. look at it this way, if you have a child who draws a lot but doesnt write very well, would you disown him? i mean everybody expects everyone to write properly but you dont disown your child because of that. you develop his drawing talent and also his writing skills but you wont expect him or put the pressure on him to write legibly. might be a little exaggerated with this analogy but thats one of the ways i can describe it.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote matt wrote: View Post
    You are literally losing credibility by every post you write. Positive contribution?? we're losing 11 straight games, how is any of that positive?
    He' a center, and part of the job of being a center is rebounding, not saying you're lazy at it.
    i think there's 10 other guys on that team who are in the rotation.
    Bargnani is much to blame for those loses but so are the other players too.
    Coach should sit his ass down when he breaks down on defense or doesnt get the rebound but he's the GMs boy so what can they do.

  3. #3303
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Im happy there loosing IRving BABBYYYYYYY! The guy is playing injured he can cant even bend his knees. If i were triano i would take a conservative approach and put him on IR, let some other players develope. He's playing center by default. And quoting yourself in one article doesn't mean anyting, I tell myself im stupid all the time doesn't mean im actually stupid.

    Quote matt wrote: View Post
    You are literally losing credibility by every post you write. Positive contribution?? we're losing 11 straight games, how is any of that positive?
    He' a center, and part of the job of being a center is rebounding, not saying you're lazy at it.
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 12:14 PM.

  4. #3304
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    I disagree. He's very talented, and is a pretty good defender. But he would only be a sixth man at most, on a contender. Just like Bargnani would be a sixth man at most on a contender. Amir looks a lot better than he is because he plays next to horrid defenders. But next to guys like Lamar Odom, he is half decent. I don't see him starting over guys like Jeff Green, Paul Millsap, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Brandon Bass, Carlos Boozer etc... But he would definitely be a player contenders want off the bench, energetic and good defender.

    I think teams would really like Amir, and I don't see us getting much with trading Bargnani alone. So, maybe including a guy like Amir, expiring of Reggie and Miami's pick. But I still don't see what we could get back for Bargnani. I think Bargnani is far more valuable than anything we could get. Plus, the best case scenario would be that in a couple years (or even next year, Kanter) we get a good center, which can start allowing Bargnani to be a spark off the bench. Having a guy like Bargnani off the bench, could be incredible and cause huge match up problems. Just that now we have no one that can start in his place.
    Amir wouldn't start over All-Starslike Garnett, Boozer or Gasol, but I can definitely see him starting over Jeff Green and Bass. Green is playing out of position, anyway. If I was Oklahoma, I'd trade Green for Amir straight up. He's exactly what Oklahoma needs. Bass is a nice player, but is he really better than Amir? I don't think so.

    If the Raptors can really help the team in a trade, I wouldn't say no to Amir (is anyone on this team untradeable), but he's really one of three players on the team (along with Davis and DeRozan) that I don't think it's in the best interest of the franchise to trade away.

    And no matter what team Bargnani is on, he's always going to cause major defensive problems for that team. He's basically the epitome of everything that is wrong with the Raptors- an offensive team that can't defend, can't keep their opponent off the boards and is wildly inconsistent. He's not the only problem, but he's a main source of them.
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  5. #3305
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i think there's 10 other guys on that team who are in the rotation.
    Bargnani is much to blame for those loses but so are the other players too.
    +1 high five

  6. #3306
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    You know what would scare the crap out of me? Bargnani going to the Celtics. I don't think it will happen, but I think that is the one place where you can guarantee that they would whip him into shape mentally and physically.

  7. #3307
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Im happy there loosing IRving BABBYYYYYYY! The guy is playing injured he can cant even bend his knees. If i were triano i would sit him for while, let some other players develope. He's playing center by default. And quoting yourself in one article doesn't mean anyting, I tell myself im stupid all the time doesn't mean im actually stupid.
    Center, Power forward, doesn't matter. Both positions are similar, as a big man in this league, you have to be able to rebound effectively. Unless you partner is Howard, Love, or Griffin, I expect your butt to be down low and limit the 2nd chance points by opposing teams.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Im happy there loosing IRving BABBYYYYYYY! The guy is playing injured he can cant even bend his knees. If i were triano i would take a conservative approach and put him on IR, let some other players develope. He's playing center by default. And quoting yourself in one article doesn't mean anyting, I tell myself im stupid all the time doesn't mean im actually stupid.
    can somebody fill me in with this fascination with Irving? Ive seen some of his highlights on youtube, but isnt he a skinny 6'2" guard? I mean the last 6'2" player who became a franchise player was Allen Iverson, and that time he had Aaron McKey and Eric Snow, both gritty, tough defenders who covered his ass when the opposing guards slipped by him, he also had Tyrone Hill and Rick Mahorn. Im just not sure how Irving will fit in with, like you guys all say, a very defensive-lax raptors team.....

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote matt wrote: View Post
    Center, Power forward, doesn't matter. Both positions are similar, as a big man in this league, you have to be able to rebound effectively. Unless you partner is Howard, Love, or Griffin, I expect your butt to be down low and limit the 2nd chance points by opposing teams.
    I guess youre right. Griffin is a rebounding machine, even though he has a defensive big beside him in Deandre Jordan.
    Bargnani is lazy. hahaha

  10. #3310
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Well basically i didn't know much about him either until i saw this highlight package, I know this might just be an accumulation of all his best moments and don't know quality of the competiton, but from what I see in this video and what i read his potential is beast!.. http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kyrie-irving

    plus the comparisions with irving are being made with chris paul not iverson... irving is lightning quick and creates for teamates gets them easy buckets which is something we need.
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 12:39 PM.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im kinda all Bargnani-ed out. I went toe to toe with Tim W. in a previous post and i just got exhausted going around in circles.

    I dont think anybody here is saying he's the next Wilt Chamberlain (although he might be getting the ladies, who knows) but he certainly aint Araujo's big brother either.

    Fact of the matter is, this guy can score. But he plays lousy defense and a decent rebounder at best. Should he be traded? IMO, definitely not. You can pick off any bum on the street and give him a million bucks to shadow an opponent for 48 minutes and he'll do it, but you cant give the same guy 10mil and ask him to score 20pts a game, he can try, but probably wont be able to. Like i always say, get a defensive big beside him and he'll be fine. It takes talent to score, and perseverance to be a good defender, which Bargnani doesnt have. There are guys in the league who score a lot and doesnt do much in other cats (terry, crawford) but they still contribute to their team's winning ways. Like it or not, every sport, basketball included, the objective is to score more points than your opponent. When it goes down the wire, tied game and its your ball, youd still want Bargnani taking the last shot rather than your greatest defensive player.

    he's definitely not a franchise player, but 2nd or 3rd scoring option is what he is.
    We've obviously been through this, but it is very obvious you vastly underestimate the skill it takes to be a good defender in the NBA. If it was that easy, why isn't Bargnani a good defender? Why is TOronto such a bad defensive team if anyone can do it? If anyone can do it, then it's even more inexcusable that Bargnani is not even a mediocre defender.

    And yes, there are lots of players who only score. Terry actually defends, but Crawford is just a scorer. Of course, neither of those players start and until he got to Atlanta, had never played on a playoff team before. And the big difference between those guys and Bargnani is that Bargnani isn't a guard. He's a big man. It's not that people like their big men to rebound and defend. It's that they HAVE to do it for their team to be successful. You can get away with bringing a guard off the bench who does nothing but score. But if you had to choose between a big man who can score and do nothing else, and a big man who rebounds and defends, you're going to take the latter because he does more things that good teams need to do to win.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    can somebody fill me in with this fascination with Irving? Ive seen some of his highlights on youtube, but isnt he a skinny 6'2" guard? I mean the last 6'2" player who became a franchise player was Allen Iverson, and that time he had Aaron McKey and Eric Snow, both gritty, tough defenders who covered his ass when the opposing guards slipped by him, he also had Tyrone Hill and Rick Mahorn. Im just not sure how Irving will fit in with, like you guys all say, a very defensive-lax raptors team.....
    I guess you're forgetting Chris Paul and Derrick Rose and Deron Williams and Steve Nash (one more MVP trophy than Iverson). Irving went onto a Championship team and, as a freshman, became the leader of the team and it's best player, as well as one of the best in college basketball. He's a phenomenal passer, excellent scorer, can shoot inside and out, defends and basically makes everyone around him better.

    The PG position is becoming one of the most talented positions in basketball. Some of the best players in the league are at that position, and the majority of them are young.

    I suggest you watch some Duke games when he starts playing again (he's been hurt lately).
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    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    You know what would scare the crap out of me? Bargnani going to the Celtics. I don't think it will happen, but I think that is the one place where you can guarantee that they would whip him into shape mentally and physically.
    Boston doesn't like bigs who don't defend and rebound, and don't need scorers, so it's doubtful they would want him. And why does everyone think that some other team is going to "whip him into shape"? It's quite obvious that these people don't follow the NBA much. Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench. Mediocre and bad teams have gambled on whipping guys like Bargnani into shape for years, and 9 times out of 10 it's a failure.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    We've obviously been through this, but it is very obvious you vastly underestimate the skill it takes to be a good defender in the NBA. If it was that easy, why isn't Bargnani a good defender? Why is TOronto such a bad defensive team if anyone can do it? If anyone can do it, then it's even more inexcusable that Bargnani is not even a mediocre defender.

    And yes, there are lots of players who only score. Terry actually defends, but Crawford is just a scorer. Of course, neither of those players start and until he got to Atlanta, had never played on a playoff team before. And the big difference between those guys and Bargnani is that Bargnani isn't a guard. He's a big man. It's not that people like their big men to rebound and defend. It's that they HAVE to do it for their team to be successful. You can get away with bringing a guard off the bench who does nothing but score. But if you had to choose between a big man who can score and do nothing else, and a big man who rebounds and defends, you're going to take the latter because he does more things that good teams need to do to win.
    im just trying to exaggerate the fact that scoring is crucial, just as the same way youre exaggerating that defense is crucial. how about we flip it, lets say with barnes, battier, perkins or artest we expect them to defend, night in and night out, say with reggie evans, we expect him to rebound and rebound, but yet we dont expect them to score 20pts a game? i mean what we get from them pts wise we'll take, but theyre not "expected" to score. Cant we do the same way with Bargnani? i mean Artest is a SF, and lebron is a SF and he puts up 25/7/7 on a given night....same with barnes and battier....i mean they all contribute defensive and thats what gets wins, as you say, but should we expect them to score as the same token we expect bargnani to rebound and defend?

    if a team can get away with a guard not defending then if a guard defends extremely well, can we get away with a center not defending as much since offensive players will not be able to reach the basket considering your guards are extremely good defenders?

    im not being sarcastic here Tim, i just want to figure out how you would go about it if things were flipped.....coz i think we give way too much accountability on Bargs, which, if he is labeled as a franchise player then he should be accountable for, what if we shifted the accountability to other players and let Bargs do what he is best at?
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 12:57 PM.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I guess you're forgetting Chris Paul and Derrick Rose and Deron Williams and Steve Nash (one more MVP trophy than Iverson). Irving went onto a Championship team and, as a freshman, became the leader of the team and it's best player, as well as one of the best in college basketball. He's a phenomenal passer, excellent scorer, can shoot inside and out, defends and basically makes everyone around him better.

    The PG position is becoming one of the most talented positions in basketball. Some of the best players in the league are at that position, and the majority of them are young.

    I suggest you watch some Duke games when he starts playing again (he's been hurt lately).
    Im not much of a college ball guy, but ill do watch Duke games and keep an eye on this future Raptors player! heehe
    yeah, mah bad i forgot about he CP3 (6'0") but rose, d-will and nash are all 6'3" and we know how the NBA usually lists players shorter than what they really are, or is it the other way around?

  16. #3316
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    im just trying to exaggerate the fact that scoring is crucial, just as the same way youre exaggerating that defense is crucial. how about we flip it, lets say with barnes, battier, perkins or artest we expect them to defend, night in and night out, say with reggie evans, we expect him to rebound and rebound, but yet we dont expect them to score 20pts a game? i mean what we get from them pts wise we'll take, but theyre not "expected" to score. Cant we do the same way with Bargnani? i mean Artest is a SF, and lebron is a SF and he puts up 25/7/7 on a given night....same with barnes and battier....i mean they all contribute defensive and thats what gets wins, as you say, but should we expect them to score as the same token we expect bargnani to rebound and defend?

    if a team can get away with a guard not defending then if a guard defends extremely well, can we get away with a center not defending as much since offensive players will not be able to reach the basket considering your guards are extremely good defenders?
    No!!! My God, this is the point here. Bargnani does not, and NEVER will score at an efficient enough rate to justify playing him 35 minutes a game.

    He's not just a poor rebounder, he's one of the worst ever. You DO NOT just ignore things like that.

    There is not being enough accountablilty for Bargs, that why Liston wrote that entire article, it's why fans are calling for his head. He'll have another nice scoring stretch, but the vast majority of fans won't care anymore until he becomes a passable defender and rebounder. He's does not do the necessary core skill for his position, whether he plays at the 4 or 5 he'll still get exposed.

    We can put freaking Dwight beside him, and he'll still get exposed on the defensive end.

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    I'm uncomfortable with the statements that "Andrea is a scorer". He's a low-efficiency scorer who takes a lot of shots.

    For me a true scorer is a high-efficiency scorer. Someone who ... when the ball goes up ... you feel comfortable it is going into the basket. Compare the true shooting percentage of people like Hedo Turkoglu (.521) or Chris Bosh (.504) to that of Andrea Bargnani (.467).
    Last edited by Kuh; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    No!!! My God, this is the point here. Bargnani does not, and NEVER will score at an efficient enough rate to justify playing him 35 minutes a game.

    He's not just a poor rebounder, he's one of the worst ever. You DO NOT just ignore things like that.

    There is not being enough accountablilty for Bargs, that why Liston wrote that entire article, it's why fans are calling for his head. He'll have another nice scoring stretch, but the vast majority of fans won't care anymore until he becomes a passable defender and rebounder. He's does not do the necessary core skill for his position, whether he plays at the 4 or 5 he'll still get exposed.

    We can put freaking Dwight beside him, and he'll still get exposed on the defensive end.
    i wouldnt say NEVER. I think he gets a free pass this year, with him being the focal point of offense, unlike last year when he pretty much played off of Bosh. This year teams have been giving him more attention on D considering he is the "main" guy for the Raps.

    I dont know if he's the worst ever, he aint one of the best either, lets just settle for decent, shall we?

    With this paragraph i totally agree. Instead of making him accountable for his rebounding, they gave him reggie who basically rebounds for him. But what he is now is what we got. plain and simple. most if not all the guys here are saying he's a lost cause when it comes to rebounding and defense, but his scoring abilities is undeniable. so get a defensive big to complement his skills.

    i dont know about his statement. Rashard Lewis played with Dwight and they took that Magic team to the finals, and every year after they made it deep into the playoffs. Is Lewis a much better defensively than Bargs? I doubt it. Lewis got traded because of his massive contract, but if he had the contract like Bargs, im pretty sure the Magic will still keep him. He pulls opposing big men to the outside with his shooting, which allows Dwight to operate in the middle. Now defensively, Bargs is bigger than Rashard and any tiny, little-itty bit thing he can do on defense (as you guys point out he so bad defensively) will probably be good enough beside Dwight.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Kuh wrote: View Post
    I'm uncomfortable with the statements that "Andrea is a scorer". He's a low-efficiency scorer who takes a lot of shots.
    might be a little bit incorrect:

    bargnani - 8 of 18 = 45%
    kobe - 9 of 19 = 46%
    durant - 8 of 19 = 45%

    youre probably thinking of:

    roy - 5 of 14 = 39%
    wall - 5 of 13 = 39%

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    Dont get me wrong here guys, i dont have a man-crush on bargs.

    If he were to be packaged on a deal that would get us John Wall or Derrick Rose or Dirk i wouldnt even give him a second look, but the fact of the matter is, those deals aint happening and for the meantime we are stuck with bargs so we gotta deal with that. love your own so to speak. and if there is a possibility that we can get those guys without including bargs then im all for it as well.

    i just dont fancy tags such as "worst" rebounder ever or "worst" defensive player.....when you think of worst, araujo comes to mind (yeah i really hate that guy). but Bargs aint the worst, not the best either. average or maybe a little bit above average.

    but hey, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. ill just rebutt it if i dont like it, hehehe

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