View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3441
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I've never ONCE stated this list is even remotely close to accurate, or close to my what my opinon of an All-Star is. Bargnani is NOT an All-Star. All I've stated is that you're making this SWEEPING comparison, based on ONE CATERGORY, and using terms like "HUGE MARGIN" when I've clearly proven there IS NO huge margin at all!
    So let me get this straight.

    I respond to Multipaul stating that he doesn't understand the very list he's quoting by explaining how the list works, and you jump all over me for showing how the list compares players in a ridiculous way? Am I understanding this right, that the only reason you jumped in was to bash me for my 'huge margin' comment, which was only being used to illustrate how fucked up the list is in the first place?

    Ok then...

  2. #3442
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Raptomist wrote: View Post
    I often get upset at basketball judgments based purely on statistics (see Hollinger, John), but they can provide useful information. Most progressive NBA teams use them a lot.

    Wayne Winston is a prof at Indiana University and has worked for the Mavs for almost a decade. He's definitely no slouch in this business. Henry Abbott at True Hoop often turns to Winston for analysis. One example, and a great introduction to Winston's theories: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...-isn-t-bashful

    So disagree with him, and with his analysis of Bargnani and Amir if you like - but realize that Winston is pretty respected in many NBA circles.
    It's not that we 'disagree' with his findings; it's more the wording, or intent of the article. In my opinion.

    If he is saying 'These guys should play in LA, and not the team that is selected by fans and coaches', then I do disagree with him wholeheartedly.

    If he is simply saying 'These guys are the "All-Stars" of their teams and contribute the majority of that teams Stats in such and such catergories. And by "percentage" contribute 'more' then Kobe or Dwight.' Then you can't disagree.

    But this essentially rewards Good Players on Bad Teams, and the All-Star game is really about the Best Players on the Best Teams. (and a few popular mediocre players.)
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 1st, 2011 at 06:27 PM.

  3. #3443
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    IL MAGO!!!!

    Don't mess with the italian stallion...

    Can barly move, yet don't complain one bit thats the sign of a fighter!

    Where were those articles when healthy Bargnani he was dropping 25+ per game .. That's what I thought.. Anyone can hate when player is injured and underperforming.. True fans would realize this... Nobody is calling him the franchise.. but unfortuantly we don't have a lebron or wade to lead our team and that curtainly is not Andrea's fault.

  4. #3444
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    So let me get this straight.

    I respond to Multipaul stating that he doesn't understand the very list he's quoting by explaining how the list works, and you jump all over me for showing how the list compares players in a ridiculous way? Am I understanding this right, that the only reason you jumped in was to bash me for my 'huge margin' comment, which was only being used to illustrate how fucked up the list is in the first place?

    Ok then...
    I just didn't understand the comparison and I made that clear in my first post to you. Thats ALL it was about.
    I didn't jump all over anyone. If you felt that way, then I apologize. I just wanted to talk about the comparison you made.

  5. #3445
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    IL MAGO!!!!

    Don't mess with the italian stallion...

    Can barly move, yet don't complain one bit thats the sign of a fighter!

    Where were those articles when healthy Bargnani he was dropping 25+ per game .. That's what I thought.. Anyone can hate when player is injured and underperforming.. True fans would realize this... Nobody is calling him the franchise.. but unfortuantly we don't have a lebron or wade to lead our team and that curtainly is not Andrea's fault.
    I do agree with this (minus the whole 'Italian Stallion' thing). He could be sitting and saving his stats. ala Chris Bosh. or making it an excuse but he has not. Which I do respect. He hasn't used it once. And I think he really is hurting.
    However, that said.. he's 7' tall. He can grab a rebound in a wheel chair if he REALLY wanted too.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 1st, 2011 at 06:42 PM.

  6. #3446
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    I understand if people defend players because facts are not as black and white. It's another when one blatantly ignores numbers, visual proof by watching games, etc. These people could be on fire yet blame the sun for the heat. That's the beauty of following athletes and teams. Fans can relate to the "battles" that athletes go through should they choose to do so. You know, going through adversity, battling through competition, etc. What happens then when the guy that you once idolized due to his perseverance to excel in tough situations through skill and determination, no longer display the desire? The numbers show it, the games show it, the team record shows it.

    I guess in the end, frustration could go to hate or simply stay as frustration. Just because people are now starting to look at numbers, watch games and read statistical analysis doesn't make one a hater. Being a hater means you do just that - express disdain towards someone or something without any valid reason. In Barg's case, there's plenty of evidence to suggest why people are frustrated more so than mere hating.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  7. #3447
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I understand if people defend players because facts are not as black and white. It's another when one blatantly ignores numbers, visual proof by watching games, etc. These people could be on fire yet blame the sun for the heat. That's the beauty of following athletes and teams. Fans can relate to the "battles" that athletes go through should they choose to do so. You know, going through adversity, battling through competition, etc. What happens then when the guy that you once idolized due to his perseverance to excel in tough situations through skill and determination, no longer display the desire? The numbers show it, the games show it, the team record shows it.

    I guess in the end, frustration could go to hate or simply stay as frustration. Just because people are now starting to look at numbers, watch games and read statistical analysis doesn't make one a hater. Being a hater means you do just that - express disdain towards someone or something without any valid reason. In Barg's case, there's plenty of evidence to suggest why people are frustrated more so than mere hating.
    Stop hating with your attempts of objectivity.

    This was a fantastic article though, thoroughly researched.

  8. #3448
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    I'd forgotten where I heard the name Wayne Winston, and then I remember an old Bill Simmons article where he quoted him. Winston once wrote a column/article saying:

    1. Kevin Durant made the 2008-09 Sonics worse and
    2. Tim Thomas was underrated.

    Here's the article:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...flpicks/091120

    (To be fair, Winston did respond, saying that you can make a CASE that these 2 things were true, implied that Durant was just going through 'rookie growing pains' and he fully expected Durant to be an all star: http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=232)

    Simmons and Henry Abbott did a podcast last week talking about advanced stats and how flawed they are and how in the game of basketball, you really don't have any measurable way to really tell how a player is. Someone reading Jose Calderon's stats that didn't know basketball would assume he's a very good offensive PG (which he is), but couldn't never tell he can't guard 3/4 of the league without a cattle prod. Conversely, while Ed Davis's stats look pedestrian, it doesn't tell the story about how even at an early age, he has lane presence on the defensive end.

    It's nice to know that we're so passionate that we're debating over the best player on the 3rd worst team in the league. There are stats that say he's great (amongst Centres, he's 2nd in scoring, 1st in FT%). There are stats that say he's Kwame Brown 2.0 (amongst Centres, he's 18th in rebounding, 12th in FG%, 11th in True FG%). But you can't REALLY get a full picture unless you see him play. Personally, I think he's dogs--t, but hey, I could be wrong. But as soon as they come up with a stat that measures "times you passively let someone smaller than you grab an offensive rebound", I can prove that.

  9. #3449
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    Also from cnnsi power rankings
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ngs/index.html
    "Few players are less productive than Andrea Bargnani when his shot isn't falling. In the last two games, the 7-footer has gone 8-for-39 from the field; during the last five, he is 1-for-18 from three-point range. But porous defense is the primary cause of Toronto's 12-game losing streak. The Raptors exhibit probably the worst fundamentals of any NBA team, as they are frequently caught out of position not only in their rotations but also in the way they square up or play the angles between the men they are guarding and the basket. They are last in the league at taking charges, defensive efficiency and field-goal defense. They don't have anyone who is well above average at protecting the rim (although rookie Ed Davis shows promise) or anyone who can really lock down his man on the perimeter. So, even when he's hot, Bargnani is usually just reducing the margin of their loss."

  10. #3450
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    ...And I think he really is hurting.
    i think you left 'the team' off the end of that statement. i'll assume it was a simple oversight...
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  11. #3451
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  12. #3452
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    Interesting article and he may be right, but honestly his statistical evaluations are really flawed. The fact that the top nine lineups in playing time are all weak and all contain Bargnani does not mean that all units containing Bargnani are weak. If it proves anything, it's that Triano doesn't seem to care about the statistical effectiveness of the units he gives heavy minutes to. (More on this in a moment...)

    Most of the lineups who perform well statistically, and have at least five minutes of playing time, also contain Bargnani. The problem is that Bargnani gets so many minutes that this sort of evaluation becomes impossible; it's essentially an experiment without a meaningful control. There's nothing to suggest that going with less Bargnani and more Johnson + Davis would result in better performances. On the contrary, the Johnson/Davis combo is part of some of the statistically worst units we've used, and part of only a small number of effective units.

    The writer points out that most teams have at least some statistically effective units who they use heavily, while the Raptors don't. This observation is mostly true, and is worth examining. So, what is the reason that none of the most used Raptors lineups are good statistically? Is it that good lineups are impossible with the current roster, or is it that the coaching staff refuses to use the most effective units? Is it possible that the coaching staff insists on using Bargnani and it's impossible to create a good lineup that contains Bargnani?

    We all know what Bargnani brings and that there are holes in his game. I believe the best way to create an effective lineup with Bargnani is to pair him with an aggressive perimeter defender who likes to rebound (ie. Julian Wright). The stats bear out that some lineups containing both Bargnani and Wright are amongst the most effective: the combination of Wright/Johnson/Bargnani is used in 11 lineups, and nine of these are statistically excellent (the two that aren't also involve Gaines and Jack). I think you would be hard-pressed to find any combination of three players on our roster who are as statistically effective together as these three.
    Lineups that use the combination of Wright/Davis/Bargnani are less effective, but the sample size is much smaller (and again, if you remove the lineups that involve Gaines, it actually is pretty decent). Given the improvements Davis has made and continues to make, there's no reason why that can't be a very effective combination.

    I don't want to paint Wright as the key to our success; he possesses a skill set that is rare on this team, but not that rare in the league overall; and there are problems with Wright's game as well. I hate seeing him look for his shot, but when he plays hard defense, rebounds, and looks to pass to better players than him, he's a valuable piece in our lineup. In short, yeah, there are flaws in Bargnani's game, and our lineup right now is full of holes. But the holes both in the lineup and in our roster are nothing that a good coaching staff shouldn't be able to reasonably fix.

  13. #3453
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Stop hating with your attempts of objectivity.

    This was a fantastic article though, thoroughly researched.
    And thank you for your objective judgment on my attempts of objectivity. See, this is why I find RR really frustrating. Even when you're trying to reason, someone else hates you because they think you hate. I'm done arguing this or anything pertaining to a topic that makes me feel like I'm chasing my own tail.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  14. #3454
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    IL MAGO!!!!

    Don't mess with the italian stallion...

    Can barly move, yet don't complain one bit thats the sign of a fighter!

    Where were those articles when healthy Bargnani he was dropping 25+ per game .. That's what I thought.. Anyone can hate when player is injured and underperforming.. True fans would realize this... Nobody is calling him the franchise.. but unfortuantly we don't have a lebron or wade to lead our team and that curtainly is not Andrea's fault.
    You seem to completely and utterly miss the point. Where were the articles? Well, you could check out my blog for one, but there were plenty of others. The complaint then was exactly the same as the complaint now; that Bargnani contributes nothing else except for points. He was still a bad defender and rebounder back when he was "dropping 25+ per game". It's just that people ignored it because they were distracted by the pretty scoring numbers. Why everyone is jumping on him now is because people are finally seeing it.

    I think it's great that Bargnani is gutting it out and not complaining about his injury problem. If you want to compliment him, you can compliment him on that. But the problem is that when he's not hitting his shot, he's not only completely useless, he hurts the team. If good players don't hit their shots, or can't do what they normally do because of injury, they find a way to contribute. Bargnani not only isn't doing that, he's making the team worse by being on the court.

    Bargnani's ardent fans are looking more and more delusional the more they defend him and refuse to see what is obvious to EVERYONE ELSE. Even the homer Raptor media is getting in line to take their whacks. And there was just recently a thread that talked about how people thought that Raptor commentators were prevented from saying anything negative about Raptor players.

    His defenders don't seem to realize how much credibility they lose every time they say things like the above post.
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  15. #3455
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Wow. Great Article. I guess BC did draft the best player on the board with your #1 pick. Let's give him some time. Unless we get an offer we can't refuse.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 1st, 2011 at 07:56 PM.

  16. #3456
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    i think you left 'the team' off the end of that statement. i'll assume it was a simple oversight...
    hahaha Touche.

  17. #3457
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    If you want go down memory lane, these were the good times......
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...8397/index.htm

  18. #3458
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    If you want go down memory lane, these were the good times......
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...8397/index.htm
    Loove it. I'll be reading that one with a beer. hah

  19. #3459
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    What would Raptor nation do if Andrea is the starting center in 2011/2012?

  20. #3460
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I'm just trying to keep it positive my bro, whats the point on hating all the time. If it was all hatin, lets talk Kleiza, Amir, DD, Weems, everyone. Everyone sucks equally this year, and Andrea has been sucking lately too. Doesn't mean he isnt a #1 draft pick with a helluva lot of talent, best player on our team in fact.
    I'm not hating. I just feel Bargnani isn't a #1 and isn't an all-star this season. He's put up big offensive numbers but he has a lot of work left to do.

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