Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Tim W.]

Im talking about the big picture here. If you consider the whole Bargnani saga if it indeed plays out with him becoming a scorer off the bench in the next couple of years....the main things we will look back and remember are things like: Raps had a 1st overall pick in a weak draft, and Bargs was this uniquely talented player who just never could get the fundaments of playing as a big man. These will be the "tragedies". Not that in the middle somewhere, he was signed to a $9 million dollar contract, instead of $5 million.

You know, I've never cared or complained where Bargnani was drafted. It simply doesn't matter. As soon as the players start playing, where they were drafted or not drafted goes out the window. I've also never complained about the contract he signed. For his production and potential, I thought it was a fair contract. Obviously he was paid to be a starter and if he starts playing 20 mpg, which is what I think he should be playing (at most), then he's overpaid. But the contract is really the least of Bargnani's problems. If he was paid $5 million, it still wouldn't change the fact that he's a liability half the time he's on the floor.

I disagree with you here. I dont think he is going to be dumped unless he becomes a "cancer" (which could possibly happen if he will not accept a reduced role at any cost - but I doubt it).

And I just dont think there will be any worthwhile trade offers in summer. You cant get a better young player for him, and you cant get a top 5 pick. What are you going to trade him for? The only people who are given away are "salary dumps" and "cancers".

The natural progression of this is coming off the bench heading into next season.

I don't think Bargnani will ever be a cancer in the normal sense of the word, but while a guy like Stephon Marbury was a guy who had a negative effect on the lockerroom, Bargnani has a negative effect on the floor.

Is Bargnani's offensive game so outstanding that it outweighs the negative effect he has on the other end of the court? I really don't think so. Bargnani is a very good scorer, but he's simply not extraordinary. If he were, he'd be averaging more than 21 ppg on 18 shots per game. Yes, he's a matchup nightmare for most bigs, but teams are starting to realize that they can defend him by sticking a tall small forward on him. And the fact is that unless he's scoring at least .75 points per minute, he gives up as more than he produces because he does nothing else.

True winners don't play guys who refuse to do the dirty work. Bargnani either can't or won't. When in doubt, I usually just think: WWPD?

What Would Popovich Do?

If Bargnani was drafted by the Spurs, they would have traded him away by now because they know what it takes to win.

[Matt52]

This is why I think Bargnani will be an important part of the Raptors in years to come. Just imagine, we manage to draft a guy like Irving. DeRozan fulfilling his potential, and Ed Davis too. Hopefully, we can get multiple picks in the 15-20 range, and get a good, scoring swingman, or a good defensive center. And with Bargnani off the bench, he could be unstoppable. Causing problems to defenses, and scoring more efficiently IMO because he won't have long stretches on the floor, giving him more energy. Right now we can't do this, as we have no one that can start in his place, but the future, a guy like Bargnani off the bench can be a great thing. No other big-man in the league has his skill-set.

The Raptors are a work in progress. Unfortunately Bargnani is currently the face of the franchise and currently the go to guy. He is a Robin - or WonderWoman, for that matter - in search of a Batman. Hopefully, as Joe mentions, DD and Ed reach potential plus some solid drafting and maybe even a free agent or two in addition to Amir and, possibly, Barbosa. I really don't think this team is that far away. There is no doubt playing with Bargnani is unconventional but until all the pieces are put in place with the current rebuild I'm not ready to trade him just yet.

The guy's contract says it all. He is paid along the lines of third banana salary. He is the teams best scorer but hardly best complete player. Once other talent is brought in and current talent matures, I think he will become much more appreciated.

Also, he could very well become a 6th man at some point. That is something that deserves consideration and I honestly haven't given much thought to. Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Toni Kukoc, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale were all starting calibre talent who, for one reason or another, played off the bench - and also won 6th man of the year awards doing it.

[joey_hesketh]

Its weird but I dont think he has actually spent a whole summer with a Big Man Coach though....correct me if I am wrong. IMO too much damn time with the damn Italian National Team dammit

He absolutely has spent quite a bit of time with Big Man Coaches. Whether or not he's spent an entire summer, is irrelevant.
He has been with Pete Newell, who is:

Considered "America's Basketball Guru", Newell conducts an annual training camp for centers and forwards known simply as "Big Man Camp", which has since been informally dubbed "Pete Newell's Big Man Camp". The camp originally when word spread that Newell was working with Kermit Washington. After Washington's game rapidly improved, more and more big men started to work with Newell and he later opened the camp. The camp's impressive participants list features over 200 current and former NBA players.[5] Newell has attracted this list of players due to his reputation of teaching footwork, being what one publication described as "The Footwork Master".[3] Former attendants include Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Walton, and many others.[5] The camp is almost seen as standard for players coming out of college into the NBA; according to ESPN's Ric Bucher, "[ [f]or the past 24 years, every big man of any significance has spent at least one summer week trying to get close enough to Pete.".[2] Since Newell opened the camp in 1976 he has not accepted any money for his services, instead he has donated his time feeling that as he states, "I owe it to the game. I can never repay what the game has given me."[6] The camp has taken place in Honolulu, Hawaii and most recently Las Vegas, Nevada.

Not to mention, Franceso Vitucci, Messina's Lead Assistant for a while, has worked with him extensively as well.
Check this link out. GREAT resource for what Bargs should be doing and what the Coaching Staff should be doing with him.

[Tim W.]

The Raptors are a work in progress. Unfortunately Bargnani is currently the face of the franchise and currently the go to guy. He is a Robin - or WonderWoman, for that matter - in search of a Batman. Hopefully, as Joe mentions, DD and Ed reach potential plus some solid drafting and maybe even a free agent or two in addition to Amir and, possibly, Barbosa. I really don't think this team is that far away. There is no doubt playing with Bargnani is unconventional but until all the pieces are put in place with the current rebuild I'm not ready to trade him just yet.

The guy's contract says it all. He is paid along the lines of third banana salary. He is the teams best scorer but hardly best complete player. Once other talent is brought in and current talent matures, I think he will become much more appreciated.

Also, he could very well become a 6th man at some point. That is something that deserves consideration and I honestly haven't given much thought to. Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Toni Kukoc, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale were all starting calibre talent who, for one reason or another, played off the bench - and also won 6th man of the year awards doing it.

Those guys you mentioned all play(ed) starter minutes. The whole problem with Bargnani is that he shouldn't be playing more than 20 mpg because he's such a liability on the defensive end. Having him come off the bench is great, but that doesn't mean he's no longer the defensive liability he is starting. The whole idea of bringing him off the bench is that you limit the damage he does to your defense by playing him fewer minutes. If he's not hot, he doesn't play.

And apart from Jamal Crawford, all those players could do more than one thing to help the team. And as I've said before, the Hawks are not going ANYWHERE in the playoffs. Crawford wouldn't play the same type of role on a real contender because he's a horrible defender.

[Tim W.]

He absolutely has spent quite a bit of time with Big Man Coaches. Whether or not he's spent an entire summer, is irrelevant.
He has been with Pete Newell, who is:


Not to mention, Franceso Vitucci, Messina's Lead Assistant for a while, has worked with him extensively as well.
Check this link out. GREAT resource for what Bargs should be doing and what the Coaching Staff should be doing with him.

He also worked with Moses Malone, among others.

Besides, it really doesn't take a great big man coach to teach a guy something he should already know after 4.5 seasons in the league. I could show him what he has to do, but it doesn't mean he's going to do it.

I honestly have never seen a guy who has had so many excuses made for him. It's endless. And they all end up being bogus.

- He has been playing out of position
- He wasn't given a chance
- Bosh was preventing him from getting rebounds
- He doesn't get many rebounds because he takes a lot of threes
- Calderon freezes him out
- Mitchell was being too hard on him
- Triano is being too soft on him
- He's never had a chance to be the #1 option
- He'd play better defense on a better defensive team
- He's not surrounded by the right players
- He needs to spend the summer with Hakeem
- Etc. etc

Bargnani is the prototypical "he just needs" player. He just needs this or that in order to become a great player. NBA graveyards are littered with players like that.

Is it too much to ask for to have a player that doesn't require the perfect set of circumstances in order to be effective?

[Multipaul]

He also worked with Moses Malone, among others.

Besides, it really doesn't take a great big man coach to teach a guy something he should already know after 4.5 seasons in the league. I could show him what he has to do, but it doesn't mean he's going to do it.

I honestly have never seen a guy who has had so many excuses made for him. It's endless. And they all end up being bogus.

- He has been playing out of position
- He wasn't given a chance
- Bosh was preventing him from getting rebounds
- He doesn't get many rebounds because he takes a lot of threes
- Calderon freezes him out
- Mitchell was being too hard on him
- Triano is being too soft on him
- He's never had a chance to be the #1 option
- He'd play better defense on a better defensive team
- He's not surrounded by the right players
- He needs to spend the summer with Hakeem
- Etc. etc

Bargnani is the prototypical "he just needs" player. He just needs this or that in order to become a great player. NBA graveyards are littered with players like that.

Is it too much to ask for to have a player that doesn't require the perfect set of circumstances in order to be effective?

Tim W should be our starting center. He is most knowledgeable bout the position.

[ab7]

Don't u think its time maybe to try the guy at his natural position PF maybe it would be better for him and for us ..!! Find a real defensive center for him and will will be alright ater seeing the season i think its the only way to be successful


Aldrige is playing a the 4 there for its not even fair to compare them

[Beaverboi]

Huh, Andrea at the 4? I think that is something that no one has ever thought of......

[joey_hesketh]

This'll get moved ANY minute now...

Novel idea though. Someone should communicate this to BC.

[OzRapFan]

His natural position is bent over taking one up the arse.

[joey_hesketh]

His natural position is bent over taking one up the arse.

:O

Harsh. Inappropriate.
Possibly true.

[Employee]

This has been done to death.

Amir is a defensive 4 and I don't think it's helping much.

Bargs greatest asset is playing against slower 5's that don't like to come out to the perimeter. This would help negate that.

[Ambidextrious]

Don't u think its time maybe to try the guy at his natural position PF maybe it would be better for him and for us ..!! Find a real defensive center for him and will will be alright ater seeing the season i think its the only way to be successful


Aldrige is playing a the 4 there for its not even fair to compare them

I've been saying that forever. I sound like a broken record sometimes.

His natural position is bent over taking one up the arse.

LOL thats so funny,

[Balls of Steel]

Ugh, more excuses.

[Matt52]

His natural position is bent over taking one up the arse.

This is even funnier when considering OZ wrote this. That show was all about taking one (or two) up.....

[Tim W.]

Don't u think its time maybe to try the guy at his natural position PF maybe it would be better for him and for us ..!! Find a real defensive center for him and will will be alright ater seeing the season i think its the only way to be successful


Aldrige is playing a the 4 there for its not even fair to compare them

This has to be one of the most ridiculous of all the thousands of Bargnani excuses. Bargnani is 7 feet, contributes best on defense when he is defending against bigger, slower centers. Is best on offense when he has a bigger, slower defender on him. He struggles defensively against PFs, because he has difficulty defending quicker players and players that face up. And quicker defenders guard him better.

Aldridge plays the 4 because he's a quicker defender than Bargnani, doesn't have the bulk to defend big centers, and excels playing the position.

The ridiculous notion that he's a PF because he plays outside makes about as much sense as saying that Kobe Bryant is a PF because he posts up a lot.

The only way for Bargnani to be successful is to graft him to Amir Johnson.

[Tim W.]

Ugh, more excuses.

I can't believe no one has suggested changing the brand of shoes he wears. Obviously, that is the problem!

[yertu damkule]

Don't u think its time maybe to try the guy at his natural position PF maybe it would be better for him and for us ..!! Find a real defensive center for him and will will be alright ater seeing the season i think its the only way to be successful


Aldrige is playing a the 4 there for its not even fair to compare them

sigh. done to death. why? so his poor D & rebounding doesn't seem so bad 'cause it would be coming from the 4 instead of the 5 position? y'know...4's are still required to defend & rebound. you do realize that some of top (including the top) rebounders in the L are 4's, right?

look, positioning when it comes the PF or C's is only relevant in terms of D...offensively, bargnani is already playing the 4. note how rarely the opposition puts their 5 on him; they don't want to pull one of their better rebounders away from the paint, and they don't want to give bargs what he wants (a big, tall oaf trying to chase him around the perimeter). the word's out...as was mentioned somewhere above, teams are now using their 4's (and in some cases, bigger 3's) on bargs to take away whatever advantage in terms of quickness he would have over 5's. he's not shown himself to be a consistently efficient shooter from the perimeter, so teams would rather he bomb away. if he happens to get hot, they can make adjustments (but it's usually not necessary).

so, let's say they find the perfect 5 to play alongside him (say, a dwight howard. let's pretend.). bargs is now defending opponents' 4's (because you aren't going to pull dwight away from the hoop to defend them on the perimeter/elbow). how do you think that's gonna work? bargs is adequate playing man D in the blocks on traditional bigs who don't have a quickness advantage over him. in this L, there are very few 4's that wouldn't have a distinct advantage over him.

[J_Mac518]

OMG I have been saying this for years that Andrea needs to playing PF but look at the mess Bryan Colangelo made he has Amir Johnson, Ed Davis and in a few weeks Reggie Evans so when you add Bargnani as smith PF you have a Massive Log Jam so the decision has to be made is who you trade. Bargnani is all Offence and no D, Reggie is all Rebounds but no O, Ed Davis is Young so you can't concider him a specialist but he is playing like a shot blocking specialist, Now Amir is a good ballence of everything. Now you only need 2 PF's so which 2 you get rid of. Now Reggie is gone regardless because his contract expires at the end of the season so who do you want to trade out of Andrea Bargnani, Amir Johnson or Ed Davis.

[Tim W.]

OMG I have been saying this for years that Andrea needs to playing PF...

And you've been completely and utterly wrong for years. Imagine that!

Welcome aboard, by the way.