View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3761
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    Quote webcrawler89 wrote: View Post
    I'm not hating on Bargs, I'm just reasonable enough to admit that someday's he plays great, someday's he plays ok, and someday's he plays crap. Yesterday was okay. He did do the little things, he did help out the team, but he did not CARRY THIS WIN as so many of you seem to believe. He helped out, this was the game where Jose led us to victory. Jose outscored Paul, outrebounded Paul, Outassisted Paul, kept that guy to a horrible game, nearly got a triple double, shot 70% from FG, 75% from 3Pt line, had an 8.0 Assist-to-Turnover Ratio for the night.

    IF you guys can't accept that, fine, but stop spreading your delusions about what happened otherwise....

    This is like saying Robert Horry carried Game 3 for the Lakers in the 2001 NBA finals. He made a clutch play, but otherwise it was guys like Shaq who CARRIED the team that night...
    Very good post.

    I'm not a Bargnani lover, nor a hater. He often infuriates me during games and he often leaves me asking the screen, "Did he just do that?"

    I do not recall saying Bargnani won the game. He did contribute to the win doing something he normally does not do - boxing out. Normally if he isn't scoring, he is useless. Last night he found another way to be effective when he was otherwise playing inconsistent at best and awful at, more realistic, worse.

    The fact such a statement elicits such angry response is a good indication of why "Everything Bargnani" has nearly 2400 replies and over 92,000 reads.

  2. #3762
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Instead of thinking about the so-called Bargs haters, i just think theyre just fascinated with Bargs. People keep saying he's not the franchise player but the way people dissect his game and blame him for blown defensive assignments, poor rebounding, taking too many shots, not trying hard, etc etc, theyre pretty much putting Bargs AS the franchise player. Coz you basically want him to do everything.

    He's not the franchise player, he's not the saviour of this team, what Kobe is to the Lakers IS NOT what Bargs is to the Raptors. So stop complaining that he doesnt do this, doesnt do that. Like what you guys are all saying, he is a role player on this team much like everybody else, so deal with it.

    I think people need to stop using such overshadowing statements like "Normally if he isn't scoring, he is useless" or "he is the worst defensive player" or "his lack of defense makes the team lose". The guy averages 6 boards a game. At least a block a game and defense constitutes all 5 players not just 1. Admit it or not, the guy is an asset to this team. Its just that a lot of people here in RR has their expectations on him waaaaaayyyy to high. He does a lot on this team, just not enough according to what you expect of him. But hey, you can kick and scream all you want, but that really aint gonna change anything. So deal with it.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Mar 2nd, 2011 at 04:19 PM.

  3. #3763
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Instead of thinking about the so-called Bargs haters, i just think theyre just fascinated with Bargs. People keep saying he's not the franchise player but the way people dissect his game and blame him for blown defensive assignments, poor rebounding, taking too many shots, not trying hard, etc etc, theyre pretty much putting Bargs AS the franchise player. Coz you basically want him to do everything.

    He's not the franchise player, he's not the saviour of this team, what Kobe is to the Lakers IS NOT what Bargs is to the Raptors. So stop complaining that he doesnt do this, doesnt do that. Like what you guys are all saying, he is a role player on this team much like everybody else, so deal with it.
    Well said. Imagine if Bargs got traded and Dero was our #1 guy, suddenly all the useless hate would start flowing : how come he doesnt rebound enuff, how come he doesnt get the calls, how come he doesnt drive more ..wait..how come he doesnt shoot more..

  4. #3764
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Instead of thinking about the so-called Bargs haters, i just think theyre just fascinated with Bargs. People keep saying he's not the franchise player but the way people dissect his game and blame him for blown defensive assignments, poor rebounding, taking too many shots, not trying hard, etc etc, theyre pretty much putting Bargs AS the franchise player. Coz you basically want him to do everything.

    He's not the franchise player, he's not the saviour of this team, what Kobe is to the Lakers IS NOT what Bargs is to the Raptors. So stop complaining that he doesnt do this, doesnt do that. Like what you guys are all saying, he is a role player on this team much like everybody else, so deal with it.

    I think people need to stop using such overshadowing statements like "Normally if he isn't scoring, he is useless" or "he is the worst defensive player" or "his lack of defense makes the team lose". The guy averages 6 boards a game. At least a block a game and defense constitutes all 5 players not just 1. Admit it or not, the guy is an asset to this team. Its just that a lot of people here in RR has their expectations on him waaaaaayyyy to high. He does a lot on this team, just not enough according to what you expect of him. But hey, you can kick and scream all you want, but that really aint gonna change anything. So deal with it.
    I've got to say this attitude infuriates me. You think playing defense, rebounding, trying hard and taking good shots are only for franchise players? I've said it before. I don't expect him to do everything. I expect Bargnani to do the MINIMUM, which are rebounding, defense and playing with effort. I expect that of ANY big man. You want to score, as well? Great. Earn it by doing the minimum.

    The problem with Bargnani is not that he's not a good defender or rebounder. The problem is that he is a POOR defender and rebounder. He's one of the worst defenders and rebounder among ALL big man.

    THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    Obviously Bargnani's role on the team is to score. But EVERYONE has to play defense and chip in on the boards, according to their position. And EVERYONE has to play with effort. I don't expect Bargnani to be a dominant defender or rebounder. He will never be that. What I EXPECT is that he not be a LIABILITY FOR HALF THE TIME HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I know he's got his fans, but one fact that they all skirt around is the fact that half the time Bargnani is on the court, he actually is a liability to the team.

    I've heard all kinds of arguments about how important he is on offense, but none of that changes the fact that he is a very poor defender and one of the worst rebounding big men in the entire league. And no, it's not 6 rpg. It's 5.5 rpg. That's 55th in the league, 2nd last among centers in rebounds per minute, and 169th among all big men per minute. The guy is a horrible rebounder.

    Please stop saying that Bargnani critics expect him to do everything. They don't. They expect him to do the minimum. And he's not doing that.
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  5. #3765
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've got to say this attitude infuriates me. You think playing defense, rebounding, trying hard and taking good shots are only for franchise players? I've said it before. I don't expect him to do everything. I expect Bargnani to do the MINIMUM, which are rebounding, defense and playing with effort. I expect that of ANY big man. You want to score, as well? Great. Earn it by doing the minimum.

    The problem with Bargnani is not that he's not a good defender or rebounder. The problem is that he is a POOR defender and rebounder. He's one of the worst defenders and rebounder among ALL big man.

    THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    Obviously Bargnani's role on the team is to score. But EVERYONE has to play defense and chip in on the boards, according to their position. And EVERYONE has to play with effort. I don't expect Bargnani to be a dominant defender or rebounder. He will never be that. What I EXPECT is that he not be a LIABILITY FOR HALF THE TIME HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I know he's got his fans, but one fact that they all skirt around is the fact that half the time Bargnani is on the court, he actually is a liability to the team.

    I've heard all kinds of arguments about how important he is on offense, but none of that changes the fact that he is a very poor defender and one of the worst rebounding big men in the entire league. And no, it's not 6 rpg. It's 5.5 rpg. That's 55th in the league, 2nd last among centers in rebounds per minute, and 169th among all big men per minute. The guy is a horrible rebounder.

    Please stop saying that Bargnani critics expect him to do everything. They don't. They expect him to do the minimum. And he's not doing that.
    Feel better now?

  6. #3766
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I think it's hard to say "it's easier to get a reb then a block", it depends on the situation. Sometimes blocks are easier, sometimes not. Sometimes you battle for a reb down low, sometimes they fall in ur lap like when Calderon gets them.
    I will confess that I agree on you on this one. Sometimes it just happens!

  7. #3767
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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    I will confess that I agree on you on this one. Sometimes it just happens!
    Yup, yo by any chance are you in NS?

  8. #3768
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've got to say this attitude infuriates me. You think playing defense, rebounding, trying hard and taking good shots are only for franchise players? I've said it before. I don't expect him to do everything. I expect Bargnani to do the MINIMUM, which are rebounding, defense and playing with effort. I expect that of ANY big man. You want to score, as well? Great. Earn it by doing the minimum.

    The problem with Bargnani is not that he's not a good defender or rebounder. The problem is that he is a POOR defender and rebounder. He's one of the worst defenders and rebounder among ALL big man.

    THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    Obviously Bargnani's role on the team is to score. But EVERYONE has to play defense and chip in on the boards, according to their position. And EVERYONE has to play with effort. I don't expect Bargnani to be a dominant defender or rebounder. He will never be that. What I EXPECT is that he not be a LIABILITY FOR HALF THE TIME HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I know he's got his fans, but one fact that they all skirt around is the fact that half the time Bargnani is on the court, he actually is a liability to the team.

    I've heard all kinds of arguments about how important he is on offense, but none of that changes the fact that he is a very poor defender and one of the worst rebounding big men in the entire league. And no, it's not 6 rpg. It's 5.5 rpg. That's 55th in the league, 2nd last among centers in rebounds per minute, and 169th among all big men per minute. The guy is a horrible rebounder.

    Please stop saying that Bargnani critics expect him to do everything. They don't. They expect him to do the minimum. And he's not doing that.
    Im just being realistic. Kicking and screaming and stressing over something you have really no control over is a bit creepy to me. The tone of your posts overwhelmingly shows how stressed you are over bargnani's "inability" to rebound, play defense and play with effort. I dont want to use the word obsessed, but a synonym may not be far off.

    You said minimum...doesnt 6, oh sorry, i mean 5.5 rebs cover at least the minimum? 0.7blks a game, doesnt that at least cover the minimum? 0.6 stls a game, doesnt that at least cover the minimum? Just because he's 7 feet you EXPECT him to rebound more than 5? Jennings is a starting PG and he avgs 4.8 asts a game. And he's a PG, so should we expect him to get more asts? I mean dont get me wrong, I want Bargs to rebound at least 10 a game. But im realistic. I know he cant do that. But 5.5 isnt that bad. 1 a game is bad.

    Ive said over and over and over again, if you expect him to be a double digit rebounder or a defensive stopper, then youre just going to stress yourself, coz he aint that type of player. If you want him to do more than what he is capable of, then you are expecting too much of him. Its pretty much that simple. You cant say, oh this big man does this and does that, so why cant he? Its like saying Tiger Woods should be a good basketball player coz he's black, and black people are known for playing good basketball, or every italian should be good at cooking pasta because italians are known for their good pasta. You have to realize that not everybody fits a stereotype.

    You can be blue in the face complaining how "bad" in rebounding or defensively Bargs is but bottomline is, management is keeping him here so cant really do much about that. Up until you appreciate what he does, then youll probably never appreciate raptors wins that he contributes to.

  9. #3769
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've got to say this attitude infuriates me. You think playing defense, rebounding, trying hard and taking good shots are only for franchise players? I've said it before. I don't expect him to do everything. I expect Bargnani to do the MINIMUM, which are rebounding, defense and playing with effort. I expect that of ANY big man. You want to score, as well? Great. Earn it by doing the minimum.

    The problem with Bargnani is not that he's not a good defender or rebounder. The problem is that he is a POOR defender and rebounder. He's one of the worst defenders and rebounder among ALL big man.

    THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    Obviously Bargnani's role on the team is to score. But EVERYONE has to play defense and chip in on the boards, according to their position. And EVERYONE has to play with effort. I don't expect Bargnani to be a dominant defender or rebounder. He will never be that. What I EXPECT is that he not be a LIABILITY FOR HALF THE TIME HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I know he's got his fans, but one fact that they all skirt around is the fact that half the time Bargnani is on the court, he actually is a liability to the team.

    I've heard all kinds of arguments about how important he is on offense, but none of that changes the fact that he is a very poor defender and one of the worst rebounding big men in the entire league. And no, it's not 6 rpg. It's 5.5 rpg. That's 55th in the league, 2nd last among centers in rebounds per minute, and 169th among all big men per minute. The guy is a horrible rebounder.

    Please stop saying that Bargnani critics expect him to do everything. They don't. They expect him to do the minimum. And he's not doing that.
    Oh and you know what infuriates me? saps like you who always ride the fence...."i dont expect him to do everything" but you want him to rebound, defend, play with effort, hustle...then what is there left to do? pass and shoot? which both he does already, so pretty much you want him to do everything, right? when in fact he does a little bit of everything but youre just to proud to admit.

    "I dont expect him to be a dominant rebounder or defender" but you dont find 5.5 rebs and almost a block a game, acceptable?

    and when he got 31pts and 9rebs against Detroit, 32 and 9 against the nets, 26 and 12 against OKC, did you actually post appreciation? Its easy to pinpoint the bad, but easier to neglect the good.

    what you need to realize as well is if its a perfect world, Bargs would be averaging 25 and 15 on a given night, but he doesnt. So in comes Amir, Davis and Evans to do the dirty. You cry out and say well how come they have to do all the dirty, life is unfair my friend, thats why they have role players. What Bargs cant do, they cover. And vice versa. They cant shoot from the outside, Bargs does that. Its a team, every one has their roles. Last time one guy tried to do everything, it kinda didnt work well, at least for the Raps. The guy who pretty much did everything as you are asking Bargs to do, where is he now? But hey, thats for another bashing thread.

  10. #3770
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im just being realistic. Kicking and screaming and stressing over something you have really no control over is a bit creepy to me. The tone of your posts overwhelmingly shows how stressed you are over bargnani's "inability" to rebound, play defense and play with effort. I dont want to use the word obsessed, but a synonym may not be far off.

    You said minimum...doesnt 6, oh sorry, i mean 5.5 rebs cover at least the minimum? 0.7blks a game, doesnt that at least cover the minimum? 0.6 stls a game, doesnt that at least cover the minimum? Just because he's 7 feet you EXPECT him to rebound more than 5? Jennings is a starting PG and he avgs 4.8 asts a game. And he's a PG, so should we expect him to get more asts? I mean dont get me wrong, I want Bargs to rebound at least 10 a game. But im realistic. I know he cant do that. But 5.5 isnt that bad. 1 a game is bad.

    Ive said over and over and over again, if you expect him to be a double digit rebounder or a defensive stopper, then youre just going to stress yourself, coz he aint that type of player. If you want him to do more than what he is capable of, then you are expecting too much of him. Its pretty much that simple. You cant say, oh this big man does this and does that, so why cant he? Its like saying Tiger Woods should be a good basketball player coz he's black, and black people are known for playing good basketball, or every italian should be good at cooking pasta because italians are known for their good pasta. You have to realize that not everybody fits a stereotype.

    You can be blue in the face complaining how "bad" in rebounding or defensively Bargs is but bottomline is, management is keeping him here so cant really do much about that. Up until you appreciate what he does, then youll probably never appreciate raptors wins that he contributes to.
    I think you completely misunderstood my comment. I'm not frustrated with Bargnani. Not in the least. I have come to grips with Bargnani's strengths, and most of all, his weaknesses. What I am frustrated with is, and forgive me for the tone, people like you. I'm frustrated with fans who think that because a guy can score, he's excused from doing other things. It frustrates me because, as anyone who plays basketball should know, you can't win like that.

    And yes, I said minimum. Being one of the worst rebounding big men in the entire league is not minimum. As for the other stats, I don't care in the least. .7 bpg and .6 spg don't mean anything. Is he, at least, an adequate defender? No. He's not. That's minimum.

    As I said in my comment, if you read it, I don't expect Bargnani to be a good rebounder or defender. He's not and he won't ever be. What I expect of any big man is to be a COMPETENT rebounder and defender, which Bargnani is not. I'm not asking for double digit rebounds. I'm asking for him not to be among the worst rebounding big men in the league.

    And you're comment about TIger Woods makes no sense. I don't expect Tiger Woods to be a good basketball player for any reason. I don't judge people that way. I do expect a guy who is 7 feet and has the skills Bargnani does, and plays the minutes he does, to be at least competent rebounding and on defense.

    So it sounds to me that you believe fans should not complain about anything they see on the court because they are not in a position to do anything about it. Why complain about something if you don't have the power to do anything about it?

    And I actually do appreciate the wins that Bargnani contributes to. The problem is that those wins are very few and far between. And one (but not the only) reason is because Bargnani is a one dimensional player who is a liability half the time he is on the court. So it's my belief, and I've got a lot to back me up on this, is that you can't win consistently if Bargnani is playing a big role on your team.
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  11. #3771
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Oh and you know what infuriates me? saps like you who always ride the fence...."i dont expect him to do everything" but you want him to rebound, defend, play with effort, hustle...then what is there left to do? pass and shoot? which both he does already, so pretty much you want him to do everything, right? when in fact he does a little bit of everything but youre just to proud to admit.

    "I dont expect him to be a dominant rebounder or defender" but you dont find 5.5 rebs and almost a block a game, acceptable?

    and when he got 31pts and 9rebs against Detroit, 32 and 9 against the nets, 26 and 12 against OKC, did you actually post appreciation? Its easy to pinpoint the bad, but easier to neglect the good.

    what you need to realize as well is if its a perfect world, Bargs would be averaging 25 and 15 on a given night, but he doesnt. So in comes Amir, Davis and Evans to do the dirty. You cry out and say well how come they have to do all the dirty, life is unfair my friend, thats why they have role players. What Bargs cant do, they cover. And vice versa. They cant shoot from the outside, Bargs does that. Its a team, every one has their roles. Last time one guy tried to do everything, it kinda didnt work well, at least for the Raps. The guy who pretty much did everything as you are asking Bargs to do, where is he now? But hey, thats for another bashing thread.
    Okay, let me explain. Again, you seem to be misunderstanding the difference between doing something, doing it at an acceptable level, and doing it well. Obviously Bargnani rebounds. But does he do it at an acceptable level? Well, he rebounds at one of the worst rates for big men in the entire league. WOuld you call that acceptable? And yes, Bargnani plays defense (you keep bringing up blocks, for some reason, which has nothing to do with playing good defense). He just doesn't play it at an acceptable level.

    Amir plays at an acceptable level, to me. He defends well and rebounds at an above average rate for a big man. He scores efficiently, and he doesn't do anything that makes him liability while he is on the court. He fouls a little too frequently but he's been much better the last couple of months, and it doesn't actually hurt the team when he's on the court. It just sometimes prevents him from staying on the court.

    Ed Davis also rebounds and defends well, and while he's not a good scorer, he scores efficiently enough, and shoots a high enough percentage, that he's not a liability on the offensive end. The fact that he's also a good offensive rebounder and has a high enough IQ he can make the right path and knows where to be, helps.

    Reggie Evans is a great rebounder, a passable defender, but is pretty much a liability on offense, despite the fact he's a great offensive rebounder, because he he can't hit a shot even when he's underneath the basket. At best, Evans is a 10-15 mpg player because of this. Of course, everyone pretty much agrees with this.

    And you talk about Amir and Davis "covering" for what Bargnani can't do. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Amir and Davis can't play defense for Bargnani. They can grab more rebounds, so he "doesn't have to", but defense needs to played by everyone, especially in the front court. Otherwise, teams take advantage of players like Bargnani. They isolate him on defense and take advantage of him. Especially in the playoffs. We've seen it time and time again this year, where teams will go at Bargnani because they know he's the weak link. If your guard is weak defensively, there's still the front line to protect him. But if one of your big men is weak defensively, the only thing behind him is the basket. You ever wonder why teams with a weak link in their front court never win Championships?

    You can complain that I don't give Bargnani enough credit, or expect him to do too much, or hate him because of some made up reason, but you can't ignore the fact that Bargnani is a liability on defense and that is something that will hurt the Raptors and prevent them from becoming a great team.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think you completely misunderstood my comment. I'm not frustrated with Bargnani. Not in the least. I have come to grips with Bargnani's strengths, and most of all, his weaknesses. What I am frustrated with is, and forgive me for the tone, people like you. I'm frustrated with fans who think that because a guy can score, he's excused from doing other things. It frustrates me because, as anyone who plays basketball should know, you can't win like that.
    No offense taken. I think what we are having is a healthy discussion and its cool. Mind you I never said he only needs to score, I admittedly said that he isn’t that great of a rebounder and defensive player, but he’s not drastically bad as you make him out to be. I don’t excuse him from doing the basics in basketball, theres no need to, because he does them, period. He doesn’t do them to the expectations of critics such as yourself, but bottomline is, he does it. Its not like he stands in the corner while everybody is going after the rebound and defending. He tries but he just doesn’t have the skill to do it, and I think that’s what you have to come to terms with.

    And yes, I said minimum. Being one of the worst rebounding big men in the entire league is not minimum. As for the other stats, I don't care in the least. .7 bpg and .6 spg don't mean anything. Is he, at least, an adequate defender? No. He's not. That's minimum.
    Minimum is defined as - the smallest possible quantity. So if you avg 1 rebound, that’s considered as the minimum. I think you maybe thinking “below average”. Coz Bargnani is a below average rebounder, that has been established a long time ago. But like you said, you’ve come to accept that. I think this is where my frustration comes in. You only nitpick the areas that you want to, you generalize the category as “defense” yet you don’t want to consider all the aspects that constitute the word. Blocks and Steals are 2 of the end results of a good defensive effort. Creating a turnover, offensive player passing the ball and missed shot are the other three. Because basketball is a team sport, you cant really quantify good one on one defense unless you actually watch the game. Bargnani is not a good defender, but he defends. And again, its goes back to the skillset.

    As I said in my comment, if you read it, I don't expect Bargnani to be a good rebounder or defender. He's not and he won't ever be. What I expect of any big man is to be a COMPETENT rebounder and defender, which Bargnani is not. I'm not asking for double digit rebounds. I'm asking for him not to be among the worst rebounding big men in the league.
    Ok, competent. How many rebounds would you say is competent?

    And you're comment about TIger Woods makes no sense. I don't expect Tiger Woods to be a good basketball player for any reason. I don't judge people that way. I do expect a guy who is 7 feet and has the skills Bargnani does, and plays the minutes he does, to be at least competent rebounding and on defense.
    Its not Tiger Woods per say, it’s the general connotation that youre putting onto a certain group of individuals. Not because he’s 7 feet you should expect him to rebound. It’s a skill, which he is not great at.

    So it sounds to me that you believe fans should not complain about anything they see on the court because they are not in a position to do anything about it. Why complain about something if you don't have the power to do anything about it?
    I didn’t say don’t say anything, I said don’t stress yourself over it.

    And I actually do appreciate the wins that Bargnani contributes to. The problem is that those wins are very few and far between. And one (but not the only) reason is because Bargnani is a one dimensional player who is a liability half the time he is on the court. So it's my belief, and I've got a lot to back me up on this, is that you can't win consistently if Bargnani is playing a big role on your team.
    Again, 5 players on a team. The Raptors is a bad defensive team, sure Bargs contributes to that, but even if you take out Bargs, its still a bad defensive team. Here:

    Well, Andrea Bargnani didn't play, and the Raptors' defense was still terrible against the Mavs on Sunday. So there goes that theory. Speaking of defense, the Raptors shot 52 percent last week but won just one of their four games, which was actually a pretty impressive victory over the Bulls.

    http://www.nba.com/2011/news/powerra...k18/index.html

    Like I said, don’t ride the fence. Say Bargs is a bad rebounder/defender, but don’t make him out like the Raps are bad because of him. Team game. Team game. Team game.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And I actually do appreciate the wins that Bargnani contributes to. The problem is that those wins are very few and far between. And one (but not the only) reason is because Bargnani is a one dimensional player who is a liability half the time he is on the court. So it's my belief, and I've got a lot to back me up on this, is that you can't win consistently if Bargnani is playing a big role on your team.
    to be fair, the wins that ANYBODY on the team contributes to is few and far between

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    No offense taken. I think what we are having is a healthy discussion and its cool. Mind you I never said he only needs to score, I admittedly said that he isnít that great of a rebounder and defensive player, but heís not drastically bad as you make him out to be. I donít excuse him from doing the basics in basketball, theres no need to, because he does them, period. He doesnít do them to the expectations of critics such as yourself, but bottomline is, he does it. Its not like he stands in the corner while everybody is going after the rebound and defending. He tries but he just doesnít have the skill to do it, and I think thatís what you have to come to terms with.



    Minimum is defined as - the smallest possible quantity. So if you avg 1 rebound, thatís considered as the minimum. I think you maybe thinking ďbelow averageĒ. Coz Bargnani is a below average rebounder, that has been established a long time ago. But like you said, youíve come to accept that. I think this is where my frustration comes in. You only nitpick the areas that you want to, you generalize the category as ďdefenseĒ yet you donít want to consider all the aspects that constitute the word. Blocks and Steals are 2 of the end results of a good defensive effort. Creating a turnover, offensive player passing the ball and missed shot are the other three. Because basketball is a team sport, you cant really quantify good one on one defense unless you actually watch the game. Bargnani is not a good defender, but he defends. And again, its goes back to the skillset.



    Ok, competent. How many rebounds would you say is competent?



    Its not Tiger Woods per say, itís the general connotation that youre putting onto a certain group of individuals. Not because heís 7 feet you should expect him to rebound. Itís a skill, which he is not great at.



    I didnít say donít say anything, I said donít stress yourself over it.



    Again, 5 players on a team. The Raptors is a bad defensive team, sure Bargs contributes to that, but even if you take out Bargs, its still a bad defensive team. Here:

    Well, Andrea Bargnani didn't play, and the Raptors' defense was still terrible against the Mavs on Sunday. So there goes that theory. Speaking of defense, the Raptors shot 52 percent last week but won just one of their four games, which was actually a pretty impressive victory over the Bulls.

    http://www.nba.com/2011/news/powerra...k18/index.html

    Like I said, donít ride the fence. Say Bargs is a bad rebounder/defender, but donít make him out like the Raps are bad because of him. Team game. Team game. Team game.
    Man , don't engage Tim W. His "standards" for Bargs change like the seasons. If Bargs averaged 20 and 10 , that would not be good enough for him.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Okay, let me explain. Again, you seem to be misunderstanding the difference between doing something, doing it at an acceptable level, and doing it well. Obviously Bargnani rebounds. But does he do it at an acceptable level? Well, he rebounds at one of the worst rates for big men in the entire league. WOuld you call that acceptable? And yes, Bargnani plays defense (you keep bringing up blocks, for some reason, which has nothing to do with playing good defense). He just doesn't play it at an acceptable level.
    My apologies for the “sap” name-calling. That was rude and inappropriate. I guess I just got too hot under the collar for a minute.

    Acceptability is entirely based on the standards of an individual, a group or organization. If you want a concrete definition – “meeting requirements”. Acceptable in terms of NBA standards? There’s no such thing. If the NBA classified skills as acceptable then a lot of players will be jobless. Acceptable to my standards, YES. Acceptable to yours? Obviously not. But don’t generalize in a way that it seems everybody in the whole planet deems it unacceptable for Bargs to be getting 5.5rebs a game or defending the way he does. If you indicated – not acceptable “IN MY TERMS” then we wouldn’t have this discussion because I would honor that statement because you personalized it, by that statement youre saying that you yourself don’t find it acceptable, and that’s fine.

    Amir plays at an acceptable level, to me. He defends well and rebounds at an above average rate for a big man. He scores efficiently, and he doesn't do anything that makes him liability while he is on the court. He fouls a little too frequently but he's been much better the last couple of months, and it doesn't actually hurt the team when he's on the court. It just sometimes prevents him from staying on the court.
    Oh yes, Amir plays at an acceptable level, for you and me both. He does defend well and rebounds. I don’t agree that he is not a liability, when he fouls. I think its pretty much the same liability when you say Bargs does not defend adequately. Liability means you cant put your faith on that person because his skill is not particularly good to end up with good results. When Bargs is defending, its still a toss up, he might get beat and scored on or he might actually stop the player from scoring. Same thing with Amir, he might stop the player from scoring, or foul him. Mind you, a foul is an end result of bad defense. And when he gets fouls early, it takes the team closer to penalty situations. And, it messes the rotation. But his play is acceptable to me.

    Ed Davis also rebounds and defends well, and while he's not a good scorer, he scores efficiently enough, and shoots a high enough percentage, that he's not a liability on the offensive end. The fact that he's also a good offensive rebounder and has a high enough IQ he can make the right path and knows where to be, helps.

    Reggie Evans is a great rebounder, a passable defender, but is pretty much a liability on offense, despite the fact he's a great offensive rebounder, because he he can't hit a shot even when he's underneath the basket. At best, Evans is a 10-15 mpg player because of this. Of course, everyone pretty much agrees with this.
    Not disputing these.

    And you talk about Amir and Davis "covering" for what Bargnani can't do.
    Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Amir and Davis can't play defense for Bargnani. They can grab more rebounds, so he "doesn't have to", but defense needs to played by everyone, especially in the front court. Otherwise, teams take advantage of players like Bargnani. They isolate him on defense and take advantage of him. Especially in the playoffs. We've seen it time and time again this year, where teams will go at Bargnani because they know he's the weak link. If your guard is weak defensively, there's still the front line to protect him. But if one of your big men is weak defensively, the only thing behind him is the basket. You ever wonder why teams with a weak link in their front court never win Championships?
    This is why coaches call double-teams. If a team is good enough defensively, they are able to mask another player’s “inability” to defend properly. There’s also things such as “help defense” and “traps”.

    I don’t entirely agree that opposing teams ISO whoever Bargs is guarding. Most if not all the big men are leaned on to score anyways. Howard, Gasol, Bogut, Duncan. And ISO is a standard play, not because its Bargnani who’s guarding them. Bargnani dropped 29 on Portland, 29 on the spurs, 29 on Boston. Does that make Camby, Duncan and Perkins bad defensive players coz Bargs scored a boat on them? Im pretty sure at some point in those games Bargs got ISOs against these guys. Howard dropped 26 and then 29 on the spurs this year, does that make Duncan a really bad defensive player?

    When Okafor scored 1 point against the Raps 2 days ago? and Noah 7 pts when he averages 13? Or when Randolph goes for 8 of 24? Who do you attribute these to on the Raps side?

    You can complain that I don't give Bargnani enough credit, or expect him to do too much, or hate him because of some made up reason, but you can't ignore the fact that Bargnani is a liability on defense and that is something that will hurt the Raptors and prevent them from becoming a great team.
    Oh yes, I complain but I cant really control it. You have your own opinions and so do I. I think the difference is the way our “standards” differ. But I honor that. I acknowledge what you say and where youre coming from. I may not agree, but I acknowledge.

    Liability, not entirely. He has lapses but not a liability. Prevent from becoming a great team? Yes, if he’s left to carry the burden. If they build WITH and not around him, nothing can hold them back from being a great team.

    Sorry man but im quite exhausted. Ill just agree to disagree with you.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Man , don't engage Tim W. His "standards" for Bargs change like the seasons. If Bargs averaged 20 and 10 , that would not be good enough for him.
    Its healthy. Although i admit i sometimes despise Tim, his arguments are very valid and worthy. But im sure he's a nice guy, in his own way! hahaha just kidding Tim. Im sure youre a very opinionated nice guy.

    Although i dont agree sometimes, doesnt mean im always correct! hehehe
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Mar 3rd, 2011 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Its healthy. Although i admit i sometimes despise Tim, his arguments are very valid and worthy. But im sure he's a nice guy, in his own way! hahaha just kidding Tim. Im sure youre a very opinionated nice guy.

    Although i dont agree sometimes, doesnt mean im always correct! hehehe
    i feel the same way about Tim... even though alot of the time i dont agree with him, i'm not closed minded about listening to an opinion contrary to my own as long as its well-informed.. i appreciate alot of Tim's input, he's really infomative alot of the time... sure, sometimes he's kinda bull-headed, but compared to the rest of the haters he's a breath of fresh air

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i feel the same way about Tim... even though alot of the time i dont agree with him, i'm not closed minded about listening to an opinion contrary to my own as long as its well-informed.. i appreciate alot of Tim's input, he's really infomative alot of the time... sure, sometimes he's kinda bull-headed, but compared to the rest of the haters he's a breath of fresh air
    Menage-a-Tim-Heinz-tbihis

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Menage-a-Tim-Heinz-tbihis
    Ill bring the vaseline.

    Hahahahaha

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    as long as i only have to pitch.... its not gay

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