Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[ezz_bee]

This is my first thread of the 2010-2011 season, so i'm a bit rusty. Also I looked for a site that showed NBA Salaries by position but didn't really find anything, if someone has a good site please let me know. Okay on to the post...

I haven't watched a lot of Raptors games this year and since I don't have cable, when I am going to watch one I usually go to my friends place and we watch the game together. Neither one of us are Bargs fans and given the opportunity I think we would both trade him. However, my friend contends that Bargs lack of defense and hefty contract make him UNTRADEABLE. This seems a bit on the extreme side to me. Surely a 7footer who can score from anywhere has some value? I poised this question to my friend who argued that GMs today use all kinds of fancy metrics and none are stupid enough bring him on. My friend is known to exaggerate but i got me thinking. What is Bargnani's market value?

Here's Bargnani's remaining contract according to hoopdata

8.5m This year
9.25m 2011-2012
10m 2012-2013
10.75m 2013-2014
11.5m 2014-2015 (player option)

for a grand total of 41 million.

Obviously, he is not going to be traded anytime soon (even if we were allowed to) but I'd like to get a sense of whether he would be in demand if available. I'm not trying to start a trade bargs thread, more just wondering if other GM's would want him. Your thoughts?

[WhatWhat]

It's raw but:

Bargs for Kaman + T-Wolves' pick.

We do this because we get a true center. (But it'll really be J O'Neal all over again) AND that T-Wolves pick will still be quite high.

The Clippers need consistent shooting. Even in their fanbase, their saying that they need a Euro. The Rim Reaper and Jordan are both excellent rebounders. A rotation of Blake/Jordan/White Swan would sound really nice to Sterling. Bargs is also not black, so Sterling will like this a bit more.

I think that there would be good value for him last year. The ideal time to move him would be at the draft.

[Mack North]

Came across this on Eric Koreen's twitter: "Andrea Bargnani: 2,029 minutes, 311 rebounds. Ed Davis: 1,038 minutes, 315 rebounds. Let that marinate."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You?

[Raptors_]

Came across this on c/o Eric Koreen's twitter: "Andrea Bargnani: 2,029 minutes, 311 rebounds. Ed Davis: 1,038 minutes, 315 rebounds. Let that marinate."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You?

thats just sad.

[slaw]

Came across this on Eric Koreen's twitter: "Andrea Bargnani: 2,029 minutes, 311 rebounds. Ed Davis: 1,038 minutes, 315 rebounds. Let that marinate."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You?

Laugh. It's the only way to stay sane if you're a Raptors fan. You could also make yourself feel better by focusing on the fact that Ed Davis is a really good rebounder...

[heinz57]

Came across this on Eric Koreen's twitter: "Andrea Bargnani: 2,029 minutes, 311 rebounds. Ed Davis: 1,038 minutes, 315 rebounds. Let that marinate."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You?

laugh.. its not really all that shocking.. bargs is a below average rebounder, and davis is showing he's an above average rebounder.. it doesnt surprise me that he's twice the rebounder bargs is

[Balls of Steel]

Bargs is also not black, so Sterling will like this a bit more.

WhatWhat, this is just gold. Black History month in March and let's celebrate by inviting the poor kids to the game. Does this man have a PR Director? I'm howling at your comment. Heck, he'll probably have Mafia Night for Bargnani once he's a Clipper!

[RaptorsFan4Life]

LMFAO, Why did Multipaul get banned?

[Matt52]

LMFAO, Why did Multipaul get banned?

Why anyone else would get banned - a violation of rules on the forum.

Personally, I find this comment juvenille and without need, especially considering the person is unable to reply or defend himself. Multipaul has a short term ban and I hope he comes back posting within the guidelines of the forum. He offers an insight that is opposite to many of the posters here that I, for one, appreciate. The forum is based on discussion of opinions and seldom are topics clear cut right or wrong. Hopefully Multipaul, and everyone else, can keep future discussions on the topic at hand without disrespectful or inappropriate comments because one does not agree with another's opinion.

[heinz57]

Why anyone else would get banned - a violation of rules on the forum.

Personally, I find this comment juvenille and without need, especially considering the person is unable to reply or defend himself. Multipaul has a short term ban and I hope he comes back posting within the guidelines of the forum. He offers an insight that is opposite to many of the posters here that I, for one, appreciate. The forum is based on discussion of opinions and seldom are topics clear cut right or wrong. Hopefully Multipaul, and everyone else, can keep future discussions on the topic at hand without disrespectful or inappropriate comments because one does not agree with another's opinion.

agreed.. i see multipaul in the same way i see tim w... just polar opposites of the same magnet.. tim is analytical well-informed "bargs hater"... multi is a passionate "bargs fanboy"... while i dont really agree with either viewpoint entirely, i can appreciate both sides of the coin... unfortunately, having an opinion in one direction or the other on the topic is always going to lead to people trolling on you and bringing out the worst in you... tis the way of the interwebs

hopefully the short term ban doesnt keep him away for good.. he's one of the few people who made the board fun.. his "bargs is tupac" thread was gold

[Tim W.]

agreed.. i see multipaul in the same way i see tim w

I hate you.

[heinz57]

I hate you.

im not going to lie... i said that on purpose. you've been trolled, Mr. W.

[Tim W.]

im not going to lie... i said that on purpose. you've been trolled, Mr. W.

[Raptors_]

Why anyone else would get banned - a violation of rules on the forum.

Personally, I find this comment juvenille and without need, especially considering the person is unable to reply or defend himself. Multipaul has a short term ban and I hope he comes back posting within the guidelines of the forum. He offers an insight that is opposite to many of the posters here that I, for one, appreciate. The forum is based on discussion of opinions and seldom are topics clear cut right or wrong. Hopefully Multipaul, and everyone else, can keep future discussions on the topic at hand without disrespectful or inappropriate comments because one does not agree with another's opinion.

That dude was annoying the hell outta me

[Mack North]

That dude was annoying the hell outta me

ROTFLMMFAO! Yesssssssssssssssss...

[Tim W.]

This is from another thread that I have continued here because I didn't feel it was an appropriate discussion there.

In this case I m not talking about personal insults. I never expected you to call him ugly, or his mom fat. I am talking about professionally insulting him, which to me are the same but I’ll leave that for now. When you repeatedly mention a players weaknesses call them the worst rebounder the biggest problem on the team etc to me that doesn’t really sound like you’re defending his game. If you were defended his game you would point to player strengths such as improved scorer, versatile big man and opportunity to be very helpful player moving forward.

I have defended him on occasion, when I felt he was being unfairly attacked, but I certainly don't do it on a regular basis. And insulting and criticizing are two different things.

Firstly, team statistics relating to individuals are not helpful measures. By that I mean rebounding is a result of team input but is tracked as an individual output. I don’t know what data you used to base your claims against but you’d think just by watching a game one wouldn’t have to use such data to prove a point, unless they had some other motives to draw attention to such as wanting a player to be traded. And last time I checked statements relating to “all time” are used for retired players.

Bargnani is a bad rebounder no matter how you look it. He's a bad rebounder individually and for the team. He doesn't grab enough rebounds and he doesn't prevent his man from getting to the boards enough.

As for what stats I used, per minute, Bargnani is currently one of the worst rebounding 7 footers...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...order_by_asc=Y

Here are my civilized reasons for disagreeing with you about him being our biggest problem.
I listen to and read player / coach’s interviews. Their opinions should be valued more highly the average fan and just based on hearing what they think about his game would make me believe he is a solution player. Here are some opposing players and coaches I remember who have spoke very highly about his game. Lebron James, Dirk Nowitsky, Brook Lopez, Big Z, every opposing coach whose been interviewed. However popular opinion shouldn’t be the determine factor because Id surely loose that battle, seems media/blogger opinions are more important these days. So let’s talk about his game. Well what can’t he do on offence he can step back hit the three, pull up hit the jumper, pump fake drive and dunk in his opponents face, post up a shorter defender, drive by taller one. Did i miss anything? His individual defense is excellent. He moves his feet well, contests every shot and doesn’t foul. His team defense is developing. He shows hard on screens, switches better and blocks some shots. Team defending is one area I would say needs improvement, but you can say that about the majority of NBA players.

Most players say nice things about other players. They have a lot of sympathy for other players because they relate to them. And Bargnani IS a talented offensive player, which is what most of the people have said. Coaches DO need to create strategies to stop him from scoring.

As for whose opinion is more important, I don't know. But I take what players and coaches say to the media with a grain of salt. Ask them what they say in person, and it might be different and usually is.

As for his defense, it is bad. Individually, his defense is vastly overrated. He'll have a good defensive game, and then get completely rocked for 10 or 15, but people keep pointing to the game he shut down Tim Duncan. On certain specific occasions, Bargnani's man-to-man defense can be good. Overall, it's not. Bargnani generally only does well in certain, specific situations. He does best when defending a big, lumbering back to the basket player who doesn't have good footwork and generally isn't going to blow past you. Bargnani's greatest skill on defense is that he doesn't react well. While it hurts him a lot of the time, if you're trying to post up and you pump fake him, he's not going to react, so you have to shoot over him, where his length will disrupt you. Bargnani's also strong enough that, if he doesn't give up position (which he often does) he can keep his man away from the basket. Against face-up big men, guys who handle the ball well, players who go east-west well, Bargnani struggles mightily. It's why Amir usually guards the team's best big man. And why Bargnani is taken out in close games on defensive possessions.

As for his team defense, yes, the majority of players need to work on that, but the majority of NBA players aren't complete liabilities on team defense. We're not talking about making a few improvements. We're talking about a guy who doesn't seem to have the first clue about how to play it. Yes, Bargnani blocks a few shots, but that is no indication of how good a defender someone is. And Bargnani is so out of position a lot of the time it still shocks me.

What happened to your belief that defense and only defense wins championships? Yet you’re willing to trade for a combination of Beasley, Milicic and or Randolph. Those players who are softer than vanilla ice.

Where on earth did you get the idea I'd want Beasley or Randolph? You're making massive assumptions based on absolutely nothing. I said I'd trade Bargnani to Minnesota. I never said for Beasley or Randolph. The guy I'd trade him for would be Rubio, who I think is going to be a great NBA point guard.

Unless you’re an aspiring analyst for the NBA you shouldn’t be personally insulted by my criticism towards your criticism of another player’s game. And even if you were personally offended you should have only brought it up if you were certain that David Stern would be reading my post. You say that you have never insulted Bargnani on a personal level, yet now you’re saying I am insulting you on a personal level make up your mind son.

Quite frankly, I don't understand this at all. I was not offended by your comment. You seemed to be offended by my criticism of Bargnani. And I simply responded.

This is the post I responded to. It seemed a little insulting to me.

Seriously dude enough with your Bargnani love affair. You alwayse need to bring his name up even in a totally unrelated post. Listening to your Bargnani bashing is funny only because there is a perfect negative corelation the more you keep insulting him the better he plays. I just don't understand some of your ridicioulous claims about his game heres a few off the top of my head: worst rebounding center of all time, biggest problem onour team, most likely to be traded to minnesota lool.. everytime its something new. It just amazes me because we all watch the same games yet your analysis about his game is so delusional its almost laughable.

[e2thed]

LMFAO, Why did Multipaul get banned?

Multipaul is a joker FTW

[hateslosing]

Bargs is a crappy help defender, I think that much can be agreed on by everyone. Every so often though, Bargs does make the right decision and steps up to challenge someone driving and when that happens pay close attention to what his teammates do: No one rotates to take the man Bargs left. There is a massive issue with help defense on this team and no one seems to have even the slightest idea how to make the second and third rotations. When you watch a great defensive team play, like the celtics for example, you will see everyone rotating when a big step pout to challenge a drive. The biggest problem with the Raps is that when one of our bigs does step over to challenge a drive, the original defender has already given up on the play and doesn't rotate to pick up the man that will be left open when the second guy rotates (if he does). This means that either a player will be left open to receive a pass or someone will not be boxed out if the shot misses, which is why we get brutalised a lot by offensive rebounds.
This doesn't excuse Bargs sucking on help D, because there are times where he doesn't even make the first rotation to stop the easy layup which is just inexcusable, but there are massive problems with either the system Jay is using or in the way our guys are being taught to play D.

Sorry, just wanted to get that off my chest.

[Raptors_]

the Nani is out tonight. Lol like my new nickname for Bargs?

[Mack North]

the Nani is out tonight. Lol like my new nickname for Bargs?

I prefer BargNANCI! Cause he's afraid to bang down low? Like a girl? Named Nanci? get it? hahahahahaha