Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[bloodyhandedgod]

Did you just tell yourself to lighten up? hahah

I stand behind what I wrote last night, but it seemed a bit harsh in the light of day.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

Andrea Bargnani  33 PT  8-15 FG  15-18 FT  2-2 3P  3/2 RB  5 AS  0 BL  0 ST  3 TO  3 PF  41 MN   (Final, Wizards)

Jumpshooter, eh?

[bloodyhandedgod]

DeMar DeRozan, SG 37 11-15 0-1 8-9 1 2 3 1 2 0 1 3 +24 30pts

DD was 11/15. AB was 8/15
DD was +24. AB was +17
DD with 3 Rebs. AB with 3 Rebs.

[Matt52]

For me, the rebounds are no longer a shock nor worth the time to vent on no matter how ridiculous.

Focusing on the positive, I was impressed with the 5 assists.

[Ruuuuu]

What do you mean there's no good reason he won't average 7-8 rebounds a game next year? He's averaged about the same amount of rebounds per minute since his rookie season. Why on earth would that suddenly jump? And that jump would be, at the very least, a 27% jump in his rebounding numbers! And that's just to get to 7. And that's for a guy who has averaged between 5.5 and 6.3 rebounds per 36 minutes his entire career. Logically (and realistically) there is no reason that next year is going to be any different from the previous 5 seasons.

First of all, yes I saw the game last night....3 rebounds and only 1 DEFENSIVE REBOUND in 41 minutes....LOL and WTF

But I thought of another way to explain why I still think he will have 7 Rebs a game next year (if he plays the same number of minutes):

7 is the number I figure that anyone can get playing heavy minutes at centre. It is the number of balls that just basically come to you. Currently, for whatever reason, he is not even getting the freebies out there. How else do you explain 1 defensive rebound in 41 minutes yesterday? ONE!!! Seriously, somone explain that without including something that translates to "because he is an idiot".

See, if he was already averaging 7, I would not say he is due to "average 8.5 next year!". But to go from 5.5 to 7 is much easier because he is doing something really stupid out there, and his numbers will look a better when he stops doing it. (Again, notice I said numbers)

Remember there was a time when he was a foul machine, he would pick up 5 fouls in like 10 minutes. Also there was a time every drive from the 3 pt line would be a travel or charge in the lane.

Ok, now having said that, at the end of the day I'm not a stats guy. I think this whole discussion actually highlites how empty stats can be sometimes. Its not like Im going to be "impressed" when he starts getting 7, Im saying anyone could/should get that. Ultimately, I think he is not a good starting centre because he does not protect the rim in a meaningful way, has poor rotations, does not foul people around the rim, etc. And this is definitely much harder to correct.

I have no doubt that he will start pulling down the minimum rebounds that a centre should get if he keeps getting starters minutes, because now its just gotten ridiculous.

However, I am going to be interested in seeing whether the Raps organization actually thinks he is a long-term solution at centre. There are 3 things I am going to be looking at this summer:

1) Exit interviews - I think those end of the season press-conference style media scrums are actually pretty interesting. I want to see if Bargs has been told something like "rebound or else", "improve on defense or else". Bascially, I want to know if the message has been given to him that his offense alone wont keep him a starter. So I look forward to Triano and Bargs end of season interviews.

2) Draft - If the Raps draft 5-7, I could see them picking one of the two solid centres out there (Kanter and Valanciunas) as the best player available. However, If the Raps draft at like 3-4 and still pick one of those guys, I think that could be a big signal as to what they think of Bargs. Even more extreme, what if they drafted Valanciunas at 2 as DX has him rated? That would obviously be a big insight into their feelings of Bargs.

3) Next training camp - At this time we will know for sure (problem is that this is so far away and could even be 2 years away if there is a lockout). If Triano (or whoever is coaching) says that Bargs is basically the starter going into the season. Then look forward to more of the same, but with as I said at least minimum rebounds for a centre. But I think its possible that they say even the centre spot is up for grabs. And if Bargs role is changed to first big off the bench, I think that will be the route his career will take.

[Tim W.]

It is the number of balls that just basically come to you.

Can't....contain....joke...

[Ruuuuu]

Can't....contain....joke...

yes, Bargs needs to get his hands on two more balls a game....what?

I dont think it will be a problem because he definitely has the body for it.

He sure is long enough.

[The Rawth]

First of all, yes I saw the game last night....3 rebounds and only 1 DEFENSIVE REBOUND in 41 minutes....LOL and WTF

But I thought of another way to explain why I still think he will have 7 Rebs a game next year (if he plays the same number of minutes):

7 is the number I figure that anyone can get playing heavy minutes at centre. It is the number of balls that just basically come to you. Currently, for whatever reason, he is not even getting the freebies out there. How else do you explain 1 defensive rebound in 41 minutes yesterday? ONE!!! Seriously, somone explain that without including something that translates to "because he is an idiot".

See, if he was already averaging 7, I would not say he is due to "average 8.5 next year!". But to go from 5.5 to 7 is much easier because he is doing something really stupid out there, and his numbers will look a better when he stops doing it. (Again, notice I said numbers)

Remember there was a time when he was a foul machine, he would pick up 5 fouls in like 10 minutes. Also there was a time every drive from the 3 pt line would be a travel or charge in the lane.

Ok, now having said that, at the end of the day I'm not a stats guy. I think this whole discussion actually highlites how empty stats can be sometimes. Its not like Im going to be "impressed" when he starts getting 7, Im saying anyone could/should get that. Ultimately, I think he is not a good starting centre because he does not protect the rim in a meaningful way, has poor rotations, does not foul people around the rim, etc. And this is definitely much harder to correct.

I have no doubt that he will start pulling down the minimum rebounds that a centre should get if he keeps getting starters minutes, because now its just gotten ridiculous.

However, I am going to be interested in seeing whether the Raps organization actually thinks he is a long-term solution at centre. There are 3 things I am going to be looking at this summer:

1) Exit interviews - I think those end of the season press-conference style media scrums are actually pretty interesting. I want to see if Bargs has been told something like "rebound or else", "improve on defense or else". Bascially, I want to know if the message has been given to him that his offense alone wont keep him a starter. So I look forward to Triano and Bargs end of season interviews.

2) Draft - If the Raps draft 5-7, I could see them picking one of the two solid centres out there (Kanter and Valanciunas) as the best player available. However, If the Raps draft at like 3-4 and still pick one of those guys, I think that could be a big signal as to what they think of Bargs. Even more extreme, what if they drafted Valanciunas at 2 as DX has him rated? That would obviously be a big insight into their feelings of Bargs.

3) Next training camp - At this time we will know for sure (problem is that this is so far away and could even be 2 years away if there is a lockout). If Triano (or whoever is coaching) says that Bargs is basically the starter going into the season. Then look forward to more of the same, but with as I said at least minimum rebounds for a centre. But I think its possible that they say even the centre spot is up for grabs. And if Bargs role is changed to first big off the bench, I think that will be the route his career will take.

In my opinion, i reckon Triano has designated others players to rebound while Bargs is on the court, Triano may tell him not to focus on rebounding so he complements him by putting Reggie there specifically to rebound.(you see reggie hustling so much that he even steals teamates rebounds, this easily shows his one and only job designated by Triano)

You'll notice in games, a rebound is there for Bargnanis taking, but he will ignore it and another team mate will collect it, so it seems as if he either is very lazy, and just thinks others will clean it up, or he knows that guys like Reggie and davis job is to rebound so he leaves them to catch it. He wont be worried about a single stat, and he would be retarded to have no idea that he garners sooo much hate for not rebounding, he and Triano both know that. So placing a specialty rebounder with him, takes away added energy expendature from Bargs, that he uses more on the offensive side (he has been driving to the basket and drawing alot of fouls lately, maybe because he doesnt use much defensive wise?)
hopefuly I dont sound retarded aha

Churr

[Ruuuuu]

In my opinion, i reckon Triano has designated others players to rebound while Bargs is on the court, Triano may tell him not to focus on rebounding so he complements him by putting Reggie there specifically to rebound.(you see reggie hustling so much that he even steals teamates rebounds, this easily shows his one and only job designated by Triano)

You'll notice in games, a rebound is there for Bargnanis taking, but he will ignore it and another team mate will collect it, so it seems as if he either is very lazy, and just thinks others will clean it up, or he knows that guys like Reggie and davis job is to rebound so he leaves them to catch it. He wont be worried about a single stat, and he would be retarded to have no idea that he garners sooo much hate for not rebounding, he and Triano both know that. So placing a specialty rebounder with him, takes away added energy expendature from Bargs, that he uses more on the offensive side (he has been driving to the basket and drawing alot of fouls lately, maybe because he doesnt use much defensive wise?)
hopefuly I dont sound retarded aha

Churr

No I agree, see I dont know exactly what it is, but I agree that it is some kind of weird intangible reason that is making Bargs rebounding numbers more pathetic than they need to be....

But I think whatever it is that is happening here is going to stop going forward. I realize that Bargs isn't about his stats but he shouldn't be "anti-stats" either, thats just stupid. And the coaching staff has to realize that this kind of insane system cant be any more efficient than everyone just grabbing the boards they should be grabbing.

If Bargs keeps getting starters minutes I think his rebounding numbers will rise to just being "bad"... rather than historically bad and far away the worst in the league (as they currently are).

[Matt52]

Mark it on your calendar as this is one for the record books:

Sunday, March 20, 2011
TOR vs OKC
44secs left in first half

ANDREA BARGNANI OFFENSIVE REBOUND PUTBACK!!!!

[Multipaul]

DeMar DeRozan, SG 37 11-15 0-1 8-9 1 2 3 1 2 0 1 3 +24 30pts

DD was 11/15. AB was 8/15
DD was +24. AB was +17
DD with 3 Rebs. AB with 3 Rebs.

This comparison is interesting but somewhat meaningless.

Bargs is double teamed, DD isn't.

Bargs is often dished the ball in low shot clock scenarios to make the 'clutch' play, DD isn't.

Context adds more relevance, or lack of relevance, to these figures.

[Dr Hannibal Lecter]

Toronto Raptors (20-50)

Soft is too kind a word for the indifference Andrea Bargnani displays as the man he is supposedly guarding glides past him for a layup. The most frequently used five-man lineups in Toronto pair the 7-foot Bargnani with a rugged power forward, usually Amir Johnson or Reggie Evans. But that isn't enough to prevent the Raptors from yielding the most points in the paint in the NBA. Toronto permits the most attempts and the most conversions of shots at the rim and it allows the highest percentage of conversions on shots from 3-9 feet. Bargnani doesn't exactly strive to prevent this -- his foul rate is the lowest of his career, and his negative impact on the Raptors' defensive efficiency is the highest on the team, according to Basketball Value. That he is under contract at a higher salary and a longer period of time than anyone on the roster bodes ill for Toronto's future.

P.S

I realize there is thread everything about andrea..and if the moderator want's 2 move it..go ahead it's cool...but this thread is about one of the biggest sports media in states SI basicaly saying what I and every freakin fan of raptors have been sayin since the day of Time...ANDREA SUCKS BALLS...

Cheers...

[bloodyhandedgod]

Does anyone one have a PER link for players and player combinations on the floor at the same time?

As for AB, the ones who want him to stay believe that, in a better environment, he will improve. Most likely because what he is doing now is indefensible. Literally. Do I hold out hope for him? No. He will never be an effective defender? Not even passable. Defense comes from need and desire to stop his opponent. When has he even showed that he cared?

[bloodyhandedgod]

This comparison is interesting but somewhat meaningless.

Bargs is double teamed, DD isn't.

Bargs is often dished the ball in low shot clock scenarios to make the 'clutch' play, DD isn't.

Context adds more relevance, or lack of relevance, to these figures.

What is it about AB that you defend so resolutely?

Any Raptor fan would like nothing better than to see AB round out his game. We are not expecting a shocking defensive improvement, simple competence would be fine. But how can you watch him play and find it unacceptable what he does on half of the floor? We are all almost shell shocked by what he is doing and you are generally accepting of it. Please explain.

Heck, I could use some sort of way in dealing with this.

[grindhouse]

I would like a second first round lottery pick for bargnani!

[bigmanshaq]

That would be quite the scenario if we traded Barg for a second high lottery pick. say if we draft Barnes with the first one, then kanter the second one. we might have something that resembles a good team later on down the road:
1. Jose/ Bayless
2. Demar/
3. Barnes/ James Johnson
4. Ed Davis/ Amir
5. Kanter/ Ajinca

Offensively we should be able to compensate for the lost of Barg, as both Barnes/ Kanter are solid offensive players, factor in Demar's progression in the second year, which led me to believe he will be even better in 3rd year.
Defensively we also improves because both draftees are good defensive player, Kanter also provide that "muscle" that's been lacking with the raps.

[Balls of Steel]

I would like a second first round lottery pick for bargnani!

+1. If BC's back however, it will never happen. Never.

[bloodyhandedgod]

That would be quite the scenario if we traded Barg for a second high lottery pick. say if we draft Barnes with the first one, then kanter the second one. we might have something that resembles a good team later on down the road:
1. Jose/ Bayless
2. Demar/
3. Barnes/ James Johnson
4. Ed Davis/ Amir
5. Kanter/ Ajinca

Offensively we should be able to compensate for the lost of Barg, as both Barnes/ Kanter are solid offensive players, factor in Demar's progression in the second year, which led me to believe he will be even better in 3rd year.
Defensively we also improves because both draftees are good defensive player, Kanter also provide that "muscle" that's been lacking with the raps.

But ti comes back to the same thing, you need some veterans in the mix. You cannot go forward with a starting lineup of possible talents. It fails in this league unless you have names like Durant and Westbrook. We light have one, but not the other. Yet.

[hotfuzz]

I would like a second first round lottery pick for bargnani!

I think we can do better, 7-12 pick in the 1st round perhaps.

[Maleko]

I think we can do better, 7-12 pick in the 1st round perhaps.

Uh kinda what grindhouse was saying.