Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Matt52]

I believe you’re quite mistaken. Andrea had an arguably more productive rookie year then Ed in the same amount of minutes. As well he never had the opportunity Ed has had until this year. Ed has been given every opportunity to develop his game in his ROOKIE YEAR because we are a rebuilding team and have had nothing to play for all year. Andrea although he technically has played 5 years in the NBA we could argue he's never had a defined role or purpose until this year. If you look at his stats from previous years you'd be able to understand he has been misused and underdeveloped by his previous coaches and circumstances and his numbers reflect this (random and no consistency). Unlike Ed who have been given the green light from day 1 Andrea had to earn his playing time because the Raptors were playoff contenders and had veterans who needed minutes. The goal was making the playoffs as appose to developing young players. Who knows where Andrea's game would be today if we treated him like Ed from day 1. I consider this season a benchmark year for Andrea, just like it has been for Demar and a lesser extend Ed. If anything you should be judging his future based upon this year not his previous 4. And because of this I believe he has the a higher ceiling than Ed.

We'll have to disagree on Bargnani development. Bargnani has played over 30mins per game for three years now with a green light the last 3 years as well. He has regressed defensively this year. You can't teach effort, unfortunately.

In his rookie year he played over 25 mins per game. Ed has played 23.

Ed has been routinely ignored or fifth option on O. He has made his name with hustle, D, and creating his own opportunities on O.

In my opinion what you see is what you get with Bargnani whereas ED is still an unknown.

[Matt52]

If we can get Raymond Felton (since he wants a starting job and he is a backup in Denver) and Wilson Chandler or Aaron Afflalo from a Bargs trade - that trade will not be bad imo. I don't see how the Denver Nuggets are going to pay Nene Hilario, Kenyon Martin, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Afflalo imo.

I would be surprised to see Martin and, to a lesser extent, Chandler back.

BTW, that Bargnani trade would be great.

[DunkinDerozan]

We'll have to disagree on Bargnani development. Bargnani has played over 30mins per game for three years now with a green light the last 3 years as well. He has regressed defensively this year. You can't teach effort, unfortunately.

In his rookie year he played over 25 mins per game. Ed has played 23.

Ed has been routinely ignored or fifth option on O. He has made his name with hustle, D, and creating his own opportunities on O.

In my opinion what you see is what you get with Bargnani whereas ED is still an unknown.

Yea we'll have to disagree again. I think Bargnani has made big strides defensivly. His rebounds might not show it. But you have to look beyond the defensive numbers. Guarding your man, drawing charges etc.. His job isan't to rebound, but I beleive he can improve his rebounding if he puts his mind to it.

Ed is not ignored he just has a very raw offensive game thats nobody's fault but his own. Sure he might improve but lets be real when he does he'll also have to face a different defensive animal.

Yea with Bargnani what you see is what you get. A top 10 scorer (if need be) A center if need be who can guard almost any big in the league. (If need be)
Better scenario: powerforward who is the teams secondary scorer and makes the game much easier for our primary star whoever that may be and everyone else.

[grindhouse]

going through a entire game with 0 rebounds when so many shots were put up is kinda bad for a 7'0 footer. We just can't win like that no matter how many points he puts up. I am pretty sure he is a good guy and all that but if we can make something to help the team be better especially on the defensive side of the ball we have to do it.

[DunkinDerozan]

going through a entire game with 0 rebounds when so many shots were put up is kinda bad for a 7'0 footer. We just can't win like that no matter how many points he puts up. I am pretty sure he is a good guy and all that but if we can make something to help the team be better especially on the defensive side of the ball we have to do it.

You meant to say going an entire game when the opposing team is allowed to shoot 90% until garbage time is kinda bad, as a result there were very few rebounds available and as a result a player who averges 5-6 boards a game had none which also had no effect on the outcome or our horrible team defence / amazing (lucky) opposing team's shooting.

[Balls of Steel]

Is it just me or are we getting this reversed? Wouldn't it be more likely that if Walsh leaves the Knicks, that New York will then sign BC to a new contract and renew acquaintances with D'Antoni. Also, with BC at the helm, he would then approach his replacement in TO to get Bargs in New York since they need a center that can also space the floor for them (giving both Anthony and Stoudemire room to maneuver, while Bargs returns to his old form as a 3-point shooting center)? To me, my guts says it points to that.

[DunkinDerozan]

Is it just me or are we getting this reversed? Wouldn't it be more likely that if Walsh leaves the Knicks, that New York will then sign BC to a new contract and renew acquaintances with D'Antoni. Also, with BC at the helm, he would then approach his replacement in TO to get Bargs in New York since they need a center that can also space the floor for them (giving both Anthony and Stoudemire room to maneuver, while Bargs returns to his old form as a 3-point shooting center)? To me, my guts says it points to that.

haha i just posted a similar comment in the other thread.

I said this trade will happen in two sperate transaction

Transacaton #1 Bargnani is trade to NY for a bunch of scraps (who rapotors fans will love)
Transactions #2 Colangelo will be signed to a mulit year deal as preident and gm of NY

Everyone will be happy

Raptors fans because we get rid of Bargnani

Knicks fans because they get a big three and become instant championship contenders for years to come

And colangelo is happy because he finally gets to trade Bargnani, but only to leaverage his own contract hahaha

and id be happy because all the haters would be left to wonder what if?

[pesterm1]

If i had to guess....
Colangelo was told he would only be extended if bargnani is traded.
I tihnk bargnani and Alabi will be traded to denver for raymond felton and mosgov perhaps. Bargnani would do well at PF with a center like Nene. Uijiri would be reunited with solomon alabi.
the raptors will get d'antoni as the head coach next year, who was successful in NY with felton and mosgov who both already know the system.

A Felton, Derozan , Davis trio would be pretty awsome along with cvomplementary pieces Ajohnson, JJohnson, Barbosa.
Starting lineup:
PG-Felton
SG-Derozan
Sf-possible rookie (Barnes/Dilliams, if he declares)
Pf- Davis
C-possible rookie (Jonas Valanciunas/Kanter) or mosgov.

pure speculation but thats the gut feeling i have.

I would be happy to have d'antoni here. pheonix had alot of success with him as coach in the past and that was in the very tough westrn confrence.

[pesterm1]

You know ED is a 21 year old big man who had wrist injury last year and knee injury to start this season who has a soft touch and developing jump shot who is shooting 60% from field and who had 19 and 21 points in last two games?

To say he has a gap in his offensive game is very premature in my opinion.

lol +1 im glad you said it , it saved me some typing lol . demar and ed are both very youngand have been doing very well in their first and second year. how are they not great players to build around. look at this season, bargs isnt the player BC hgad hoped. he is a very good player but its not working well for the team.

[DunkinDerozan]

lol +1 im glad you said it , it saved me some typing lol . demar and ed are both very youngand have been doing very well in their first and second year. how are they not great players to build around. look at this season, bargs isnt the player BC hgad hoped. he is a very good player but its not working well for the team.

lol you just have very low expectations this year because we suck and its a rebuild. 7 points 6 boards is nothing to fantasize over. But I know the story he's a rookie just wait till he gets expereince more playing time etc..

[Bendit]

I'm not sure what the link is suppose to do. The journalist obviously has an axe to grind and admits himself

Well he may. But neither of us really know that do we? It would be the same if someone in Phoenix interested in the Raptors got a Feschuk piece (The Arizona Republic is of similar standing and the writer is a columnist there) who is probably one of the better writers around here on the Raptors in msm and a frequent critiquer.

The point of the link was to provide a view that is not a rarity even in NY these days. I would actually have somewhat less regard for the NY viewpoint simply because they "actually" think they know most about the game...and these are the same people who hailed his signing a few years ago.

Regarding Sarver and his spending: He took over before the 04-05 season and Shaq was traded for before the 08 playoffs. In the interim the payroll for the team was 05-07 was 119 mill, 82 mill & 71 mill (all in lux. territory I believe). JJ was traded Aug '05. The payroll was 119 mill. Far be it for me to grieve for ownership on spending large but I would think the spending was a bit overthetop. He then got a bit tired of a lack of results and decided to take Kerr's advice on direction change (Shaq & defense). Entitled dont you think as would ownership here (I prefer BC to stay more because of the timing re the pos. of the franchise)? Shaq was a horrible acquisition but shit happens. And I also understand DAntoni's frustration at the end. No question his input was non grata at the end ...something I believe he had quite a bit with BC.

Anyway where was I. My opposition to DAntoni as coach today with the Raps is simply that I am tired of the disregard and unaccountability afforded to the defensive side of the ball since BC has been here. I think he has seen the light but pieces of unsubtantiated rumor like this show up and start discussions like this. I just dont think the team is a fit for the old DAntoni (he hasnt changed yet). My idea of a fit would be someone like Adelman (probably a hard get).

One last point: the judgement DAntoni showed when he took over the Knicks job considering the state of that franchise and the owner Dolan was much lacking. He chose it over the HC job in Chicago who were courting him fiercely. I believe it was known at the time they had the #1 overall in that draft (Rose). I think it may have been the money...not to begrudge him on that.

[Apollo]

If we can get Raymond Felton (since he wants a starting job and he is a backup in Denver) and Wilson Chandler or Aaron Afflalo from a Bargs trade - that trade will not be bad imo. I don't see how the Denver Nuggets are going to pay Nene Hilario, Kenyon Martin, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Afflalo imo.

I think Chandler is the odd man out right there because they have Danilo locked up. Great idea. Felton is a very nice PG, he's pissed about coming off the bench but it doesn't look to be changing. If D'Antoni does end up in Toronto then I see him coming here a real possibility because D'Antoni loved Felton. I could see Colangelo bringing in a wing or PG with a Bargnani trade in the off-season. Maybe he could work a Bargnani for Felton and Afflalo or Chandler(S&T)? I never checked if the numbers work but the Raptors have the TPE to play with as well ass it's good for a complete year. Who knows but it's fun to think about all the possibilities. This summer should be fun to watch play out. Things are on the rise after a depressing last off-season.

[nubreed000]

Like Matt said, Draft Express is ranking Jonas as the 3rd best prospect in the draft. They're ranking Kanter 9th.

NBADraft.net doesn't usually get it right. Neither does DraftExpress.com. Not when we're in March and the draft is at the end of June.

Without a doubt there's no site that can predict the drafts picks to a T, but it's interesting that there's such parity between the 2 on certain players. At the end of the day it's a persons opinion though, right?

But, after checking out what they say about Jonas I have to say that I wouldn't complain if the Raps got him. I don't want to go as far as saying that they NEED him, but from the looks of it he's the most "legit" centre type player in the draft, along with Canter. Don't hate me if I'm a little hesitant about another Euro centre (no matter how different they may be). And, at the same time...would you rather we draft ANOTHER young prospect or get this whole experiment (for lack of a better word) moving forward with a little more experience on next years roster?

[bloodyhandedgod]

Well he may. But neither of us really know that do we? It would be the same if someone in Phoenix interested in the Raptors got a Feschuk piece (The Arizona Republic is of similar standing and the writer is a columnist there) who is probably one of the better writers around here on the Raptors in msm and a frequent critiquer.

The point of the link was to provide a view that is not a rarity even in NY these days. I would actually have somewhat less regard for the NY viewpoint simply because they "actually" think they know most about the game...and these are the same people who hailed his signing a few years ago.

Regarding Sarver and his spending: He took over before the 04-05 season and Shaq was traded for before the 08 playoffs. In the interim the payroll for the team was 05-07 was 119 mill, 82 mill & 71 mill (all in lux. territory I believe). JJ was traded Aug '05. The payroll was 119 mill. Far be it for me to grieve for ownership on spending large but I would think the spending was a bit overthetop. He then got a bit tired of a lack of results and decided to take Kerr's advice on direction change (Shaq & defense). Entitled dont you think as would ownership here (I prefer BC to stay more because of the timing re the pos. of the franchise)? Shaq was a horrible acquisition but shit happens. And I also understand DAntoni's frustration at the end. No question his input was non grata at the end ...something I believe he had quite a bit with BC.

Anyway where was I. My opposition to DAntoni as coach today with the Raps is simply that I am tired of the disregard and unaccountability afforded to the defensive side of the ball since BC has been here. I think he has seen the light but pieces of unsubtantiated rumor like this show up and start discussions like this. I just dont think the team is a fit for the old DAntoni (he hasnt changed yet). My idea of a fit would be someone like Adelman (probably a hard get).

One last point: the judgement DAntoni showed when he took over the Knicks job considering the state of that franchise and the owner Dolan was much lacking. He chose it over the HC job in Chicago who were courting him fiercely. I believe it was known at the time they had the #1 overall in that draft (Rose). I think it may have been the money...not to begrudge him on that.

Try the Facebook page before siding with Robert Sarver.
Robert Sarver is a cheap ass.

A quick review:
Swingman Joe Johnson wanted $50 million for his new contract and Sarver only offered him $45 million, which ensued his trade to Atlanta for draft picks and Boris Diaw. A week later, the Suns signed Quentin Richardson to a 6 year $42 million deal. A year later he was traded for Kurt Thomas and cash.

Trading Shawn Marion, who was made for the run and gun system and Marcus Banks, another poor signing, for Shaquille O' Neal. O' Neal was later traded a year and a half later for Sasha Pavlovic and Ben Wallace, who were both bought out of their contracts.

Sarver has had a huge history of trading draft picks.

2004
In his first year as owner, Sarver traded the 7th pick in the draft (Luol Deng) for 2 future draft picks and cash.

2005
Sarver traded the 21st pick in the NBA draft (Nate Robinson) along with Quentin Richardson for Kurt Thomas and cash.

2006
Sarver traded the 21st pick in the draft (Rajon Rondo, the point guard for the champion Boston Celtics) for cash and a first round pick which was later dealt for cash.

2007
Sarver traded the 24th pick in the 2007 draft (Rudy Fernandez who has enjoyed success in Portland) for cash. Also in 2007, Sarver traded Kurt Thomas and 2 first round draft picks for cash.

Most importantly, Sarver did this all during the prime of Steve Nash's career. Nash won the MVP twice during his stay in Phoenix, but missed out on multiple chances to win an NBA title. Sure some of these weren't Sarver's fault such as Joe Johnson breaking his nose, Amare and Boris leaving the bench or Tim Duncan's 3 pointer, but Nash could have won a title still. If Nash would have been able to keep the coach who's style was made for him, kept his ideal swingman Joe Johnson and been able to keep two of those draft picks then any expert would tell you that this team would have won at least one title maybe more. Sarver may be very eccentric and cheer for his team and be able to hold a foam finger, but the way Sarver has ran this team tells us that he is nothing but a cheap ass and doesn't deserve to own an NBA team.

I followed the Suns during their "7 Seconds or Less" tour. And in retrospect I wish I had seen all their games. Not since the days of Magic Johnson leading the Lakers, had anything in the NBA play like this. They won in spite of Sarver. And imagine if only a few of those picks had pulled. Or a player more had stayed. He was in a situation with Nash where all he had to do was ride the bus. Instead he threw his weight around. Saved a few bucks. And now where are they? I would welcome D'Antoni here with open arms. He is such an upgrade over Triano it is almost inconceivable. The article referenced before could only have been written by some Suns / Sarver media flunky. Full of misdirected hate.

Triano and Colangelo have worked together well. And c'mon you can see that in BC's DNA is the wish to build a fast athletic team. And team that is fun to watch. Would that not be preferable to what many NBA teams do? It would for me.

[bloodyhandedgod]

I think Chandler is the odd man out right there because they have Danilo locked up. Great idea. Felton is a very nice PG, he's pissed about coming off the bench but it doesn't look to be changing. If D'Antoni does end up in Toronto then I see him coming here a real possibility because D'Antoni loved Felton. I could see Colangelo bringing in a wing or PG with a Bargnani trade in the off-season. Maybe he could work a Bargnani for Felton and Afflalo or Chandler(S&T)? I never checked if the numbers work but the Raptors have the TPE to play with as well ass it's good for a complete year. Who knows but it's fun to think about all the possibilities. This summer should be fun to watch play out. Things are on the rise after a depressing last off-season.

This. This. This.

[Ruuuuu]

I wonder if his 0 rebounds might have something to do with the bone spurs in his ankle that caused him to miss the clippers game on the very next day.

Nah, that would make too much sense.

Above all, Im looking for an explanation for below average rebounding so you can stop with this nonsense "Nah, that would make too much sense"

If the reason he is not grabbing boards is that he is hurt, OK. But then why is he playing hurt?

Bottom line is there needs to be an explanation if your centre to get ZERO rebounds. Not just "oh well, Bargs will be Bargs", or "oh well, bad game". Even in a bad game, you get a certain number of rebounds by just being there (ie. Ajinca).

Now with the news that Raps might want to trade him, it makes even less sense to play him when hurt because things like that diminish his trade value.

Even without this zero game, Bargs averages about 5.5 per 36 mins when just about every other centre has about 7 per 36 mins (and any D-League guy you wanna call up would get that too). Overall there is something fishy about Bargs rebounding, I think its more mental than anything. But he is going to have to fix that going forward, for the team's sake, (and for his own sake if you want to be real about it....his personal numbers etc would look at lot better at 22/7 which is passable, versus 22/5 which is a huge red flag)

[Raptors_]

Above all, Im looking for an explanation for below average rebounding so you can stop with this nonsense "Nah, that would make too much sense"

If the reason he is not grabbing boards is that he is hurt, OK. But then why is he playing hurt?

Bottom line is there needs to be an explanation if your centre to get ZERO rebounds. Not just "oh well, Bargs will be Bargs", or "oh well, bad game". Even in a bad game, you get a certain number of rebounds by just being there (ie. Ajinca).

Now with the news that Raps might want to trade him, it makes even less sense to play him when hurt because things like that diminish his trade value.

Even without this zero game, Bargs averages about 5.5 per 36 mins when just about every other centre has about 7 per 36 mins (and any D-League guy you wanna call up would get that too). Overall there is something fishy about Bargs rebounding, I think its more mental than anything. But he is going to have to fix that going forward, for the team's sake, (and for his own sake if you want to be real about it....his personal numbers etc would look at lot better at 22/7 which is passable, versus 22/5 which is a huge red flag)

+1 totally agree with you there. Man i wish we had Chandler so we could have gotten rid of Bargnani. I don't understand why he doesn't grab 7+ rbpg, your a 7 footer for god sake.

[madeupid25]

I don't think Denver would part with Affalo. Him, Nene, and Lawson are who Denver is trying to build around.

One of the Raptors biggest problems is defending the paint. I think it is clear that Bargnani is never going to contribute to that. He could possibly be an effective player if he was next to someone like Tyson Chandler, him and Dirk this year have been a pretty tough front court. Furthermore, I think it has also become apparent that you cannot play effective defence with Bargnani and Calderon playing at the same time.

I think it would be a great step in the right direction if this team could unload Bargnani, and replace him in the rotation with someone who provides a legit post presence.

In the draft the team could either add a PG (Irving, Walker, Knight), or SF (DWilliams, Barnes, TJones), or possibly a C (Kanter).

Next season they could come back with a guard rotation of Calderon, DD, Bayless (replacing Barbosa backing up Demar), and a newcomer PG(drafted, FA, or someone obtained by trading Bargnani), a new starting 3 (also either drafted, FA, or obtained in trade), Davis, Johnson, Dorsey and a new starting Centre (likely FA, or obtained in trade)

The team should either fire Colangelo and replace him ASAP, or extend him for two more years with a team option on a third, otherwise they risk going to the draft with no long term plan. I don't think D'Antoni is the right guy to take over one of the worst defensive teams in the league. I think they should go after someone in the Tom Thibodeau mold, to take over the rebuild for the next few years, and to demand more accountability on the defensive end. If and when this team gets competitive in a few years, that would be a better time to go after a more established, championship level coach.

[Tim W.]

I believe you’re quite mistaken. Andrea had an arguably more productive rookie year then Ed in the same amount of minutes. As well he never had the opportunity Ed has had until this year. Ed has been given every opportunity to develop his game in his ROOKIE YEAR because we are a rebuilding team and have had nothing to play for all year. Andrea although he technically has played 5 years in the NBA we could argue he's never had a defined role or purpose until this year. If you look at his stats from previous years you'd be able to understand he has been misused and underdeveloped by his previous coaches and circumstances and his numbers reflect this (random and no consistency). Unlike Ed who have been given the green light from day 1 Andrea had to earn his playing time because the Raptors were playoff contenders and had veterans who needed minutes. The goal was making the playoffs as appose to developing young players. Who knows where Andrea's game would be today if we treated him like Ed from day 1. I consider this season a benchmark year for Andrea, just like it has been for Demar and a lesser extend Ed. If anything you should be judging his future based upon this year not his previous 4. And because of this I believe he has the a higher ceiling than Ed.

I don't think it's even arguable that Bargnani had a more productive rookie season than Davis. Bargnani played 2 more minutes, but the the only thing he bettered Davis at was scoring. Davis has a PER of 15.9 as opposed to Bargnani's 12.8. And since Bargnani played 2 more minutes per game than Davis in his rookie season, I fail to see how Bargnani wasn't given the same chance as Davis. He's started 256 games out of 300 games since his rookie season. Again, I fail to see how he hasn't been given a chance. And since Triano took over, he's averaged at least 35 mpg.

And if we're judging his future based on this year, I don't see how he has a higher ceiling than Davis. Unless you are talking about offensively. Bargnani has shown little inclination to defend or rebound and is basically a one dimensional player. One dimensional players don't tend to have that high of a ceiling.

[DunkinDerozan]

I don't think it's even arguable that Bargnani had a more productive rookie season than Davis. Bargnani played 2 more minutes, but the the only thing he bettered Davis at was scoring. Davis has a PER of 15.9 as opposed to Bargnani's 12.8. And since Bargnani played 2 more minutes per game than Davis in his rookie season, I fail to see how Bargnani wasn't given the same chance as Davis. He's started 256 games out of 300 games since his rookie season. Again, I fail to see how he hasn't been given a chance. And since Triano took over, he's averaged at least 35 mpg.

And if we're judging his future based on this year, I don't see how he has a higher ceiling than Davis. Unless you are talking about offensively. Bargnani has shown little inclination to defend or rebound and is basically a one dimensional player. One dimensional players don't tend to have that high of a ceiling.

He could have averaged 48 minutes for all I care. The Raptors have been all over the place in his previous years. From playoffs to lottery bound never any consitency. I can't even imaging the different combination and number of players that have come and gone in the previous 4 years hes been here. The key is the Raptors never had defined role for him. He basically wasted four years standing at the 3 point line. I don't know whose fault that is but that's not what you drafted him for. For example with Demar his role is growing systematically year by year. Each summer hes expanding a different aspect of his game, and the coaches are instructing him to play to his strenghts, but more importantly giving him the in game repetition to develope those skills hes practising and look what the results have been. Maybe if we would have been in a rebuild or not so focused on developing Bosh, things would have progressed much quciker for Andrea. So don't give me this he played 30 + minutes bullshit. 30 is just a number and wanna know something even cooler. If you multiply his 30 min avg by the number of games he played you would also get his total minutes played for the year isant that so cool I just love stats.

I don't see how Davis has a higher ceiling that Bargnani unless your talking about Defence. Davis has shown little inclination for hitting wide open jumpers, making free throws or having any resemblance of a post up game. The majority of his points are the result of wide open dunks or offensive rebounds. Since he is a complete liablilty on offence he is left open and should be getting rebounds and putbacks. Seems to me like Andrea has a much easier hill to climb. See ball grab ball. Inflate rebound numbers shut you up.