Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[LBF]

does any thread in here ever follow suit...


another one bites the dust

[DunkinDerozan]

I agree in that the entire team is really bad. But I wish we'd stop comparing DD to Bargnani since DD is a Sophmore and Bargs is a 5 year pro.

But I like a challenge. So I took a look at some stats to see if your argument holds water. We do suck as a whole as a team, so the fact that Bargnani played a large majority of our games doesn't help your cause, however, I believe the best way to determine how the team does when Bargnani is not on the floor is to check out 82games.com.

Looking at the best 5-man rotations for the Raptors this year, which I found here:
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR2.HTM

... and sorting it by Winning Percentage (since that is really the only thing that matters) here are the top 7 rotations for the Raptors this year:

Calderon-DeRozan-Kleiza-Johnson-Dorsey
Calderon-Barbosa-Weems-Johnson-Bargnani
Bayless-DeRozan-Weems-Johnson-Davis
Calderon-DeRozan-Weems-Davis-Bargnani
Calderon-DeRozan-J.Johnson-Johnson-Bargnani
Calderon-DeRozan-J.Johnson-Johnson-Davis
Calderon-DeRozan-Wright-Johnson-Bargnani


The interesting thing is that there are 20 rotations listed. Bargnani is listed in 14 rotations, (so 70% of them), however Bargnani is *not* in the top rotation, and is also not in the 3rd and 6th rotations. So as you can see the team does relatively better without Bargnani in the line up, at least from these statistics.

Do also note that both Amir and DD are in 6 of the 7 rotations. And both are in the top rotation.


Going further, if we look at individual player stats:
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR1.HTM

The list is like this:

Andersen 70.0
Alabi 66.7
Dorsey 65.6
Wright 53.8
Banks 50.0
Stojakovic 50.0
Dupree 50.0
T.Johnson 42.9
Johnson 42.4
Kleiza 42.1
Ajinca 41.7
J.Johnson 40.0
Barbosa 36.4
Calderon 36.4
Jack 30.8
Bargnani 32.7
DeRozan 29.5
Evans 28.6
Davis 27.3
Bayless 26.3
Weems 18.6
Gaines 0.0


So you have a point here, since DD is below Bargnani, but just by a little. Again I point out that he's a Sophmore. Evans was a surprise to me, but as you can also see Amir is near the top. That guy is a big asset for our team.

Ultimately though I still think our team could do better without Bargnani. Our offense will take a hit, but I think defense is especially more important in a big then a small. Most importantly though we need to move people who don't play hard both ways all the time, and just by watching the games this year, I can say that Bargnani just doesn't have that quality in him to play big most of the time. Again if DD continues to become inconsistent (especially on D) after his 23rd birthday, then I will be one of the first in line to say he needs to go. The same can be said about Davis too.. nobody is untouchable on this team.

love the research and analysis of bargs game
unforntuantly with bargnani its just as simple as nsn

that would be no stats needed...

[DunkinDerozan]

Interesting.

Ask yourself this, if you had to choose between 1 guy to be your focus on offense, night in, night out, hypothetically, would you want Bargs, or DD. I think Bargs' skillset is vastly superior and more dynamic and varied.

Bargs has already proven he can score as the main focus of the other teams defense. He's glued to and doubled every game not to mention first time in his career handling such defensive pressure yet what does he do? He manages to represent tdot top 15 scorer in NBA.
KINGS BARGS NSN Incorporated.

[madeupid25]

do you think oden at the 5 and bargnani at the 4 can be on of the
deadliest front court in the league combination of great defense and letal offense

No front court that includes Bargnani would be the 'deadliest front court in the league'

how fast can you say playoffs!!!

Not very

[Tim W.]

Bargs has already proven he can score as the main focus of the other teams defense. He's glued to and doubled every game not to mention first time in his career handling such defensive pressure yet what does he do? He manages to represent tdot top 15 scorer in NBA.
KINGS BARGS NSN Incorporated.

Bargs has already proven he is a liability on defense. He manages to be a big reason why the Raptors are last in the league in defense.

[Maleko]

Funny though...when Bargs DOESNT play..the rest of the team doesnt show up either. Amir and DD included. So what does that mean?

You should acknowledge though, that this is not an excuse for Bargnani to put in half-assed effort most nights. This is the bone of contention.

Bargnani is talented, and if he only would put in effort MOST games (understandable that 5-10 games lack of effort in the year...and not the other way around) then he would truly be a beast. We have seen the games where he puts in a full effort his defense is passable to good, he rebounds, he scores, AND he energizes the team. IF ONLY he would do this on a consistent basis he would be a completely different (stellar/all-star) player. What is frustrating is he does not maintain this consistency and that the lacking is purely effort, not skill. I would venture to say that if he simply put in this effort, 90% of the haters would flip and support him, including me.

[Multipaul]

You should acknowledge though, that this is not an excuse for Bargnani to put in half-assed effort most nights. This is the bone of contention.

Bargnani is talented, and if he only would put in effort MOST games (understandable that 5-10 games lack of effort in the year...and not the other way around) then he would truly be a beast. We have seen the games where he puts in a full effort his defense is passable to good, he rebounds, he scores, AND he energizes the team. IF ONLY he would do this on a consistent basis he would be a completely different (stellar/all-star) player. What is frustrating is he does not maintain this consistency and that the lacking is purely effort, not skill. I would venture to say that if he simply put in this effort, 90% of the haters would flip and support him, including me.

How do you evaluate effort? If a guy plays through injuries and illnesses, even if his #'s arent as high, at least he played, and didnt whine about it like CB4 would have done. Lots of days I go to work when I'm sick, and have trouble putting in the best effort, but at least I go and try.

[Multipaul]

Considering that most seniors don't even enter the league until 22 or 23 I would have to disagree with you. Considering that DeMar has only been out of high school for three years and has made three successful big leaps I would tend to think his growth potential is high.
_________________________________________
High School to college freshman ---> Success
College to NBA rookie ---> Success
NBA Rookie to impact player ---> Success

Next season I predict
Impact player to go to scorer (20PPG) ---> Success

I debate your Nba rookie>impact player

DD has never taken over a game, demanded double teams, or turned the tides so much to secure a win

he is a good player, NOT and impact player

[Multipaul]

Multiple posters on this site say that you can't win Bargnani starting. Seems to be a common mentality.

Tim! You took me off ignore! Bestill my heart!

[Multipaul]

Bargs has already proven he can score as the main focus of the other teams defense. He's glued to and doubled every game not to mention first time in his career handling such defensive pressure yet what does he do? He manages to represent tdot top 15 scorer in NBA.
KINGS BARGS NSN Incorporated.

NSN!
BWO-Bargs World Order!

[e2thed]

Bargs will be traded in couple months, when that day comes I will start with straight shots then pop bottles.

[Multipaul]

What if he's not traded....then what will you do!

[Apollo]

I debate your Nba rookie>impact player

DD has never taken over a game, demanded double teams, or turned the tides so much to secure a win

he is a good player, NOT and impact player

I never said "go to scorer". That's next year. Multipaul, the problem you're having is you think of "impact" as scoring and nothing else. This is why you're the only one on here defending Bargnani to the better end.

DeMar is an impact player. He's an efficient scorer and he's the only Raptors who is honestly trying to get to the basket consistently and draw contact. Doing something well that no one else on your team does is creating an impact.

What if he's not traded....then what will you do!

Unless he changes his ways or gets traded the Raptors will never achieve anything with him as the main focus. Scoring isn't the be all, end all.

[Multipaul]

I never said "go to scorer". That's next year. Multipaul, the problem you're having is you think of "impact" as scoring and nothing else. This is why you're the only one on here defending Bargnani to the better end.

OK, so where does he make an impact?

[Apollo]

I added a piece to my post. You must have hit reply before I entered it.

[Multipaul]

I added a piece to my post. You must have hit reply before I entered it.

Just saw it. Again, I would say an Impact player is someone who can take over a game, or force the other team to change their strategy to combat him. I've only seen 2-3 games this year where that happened.

Do I think he can get there, yes, I do, but i was hoping for more next year. I'm not a DD hater, just a realist, I think alot of fans are banking on something that isnt there yet.

[Apollo]

So the only people on the floor who have make an impact are guys who take over the game? So basically you're saying guys like Shane Battier and Rn Artest don't impact games. Right.

[Multipaul]

So the only people on the floor who have make an impact are guys who take over the game? So basically you're saying guys like Shane Battier and Rn Artest don't impact games. Right.

I would say they "affect" the game, not Impact the game. That is just how I would apply the actual term based on cause and effect. I can see how one might use it differently. I'm not trying to argue against you Apollo, I can see where you are coming from and respect your opinion.

[Maleko]

How do you evaluate effort? If a guy plays through injuries and illnesses, even if his #'s arent as high, at least he played, and didnt whine about it like CB4 would have done. Lots of days I go to work when I'm sick, and have trouble putting in the best effort, but at least I go and try.

Not running up the court, not moving when the ball bounces off the rim, getting beat down the court by opposing players, doesn't move his feet and so on.
Bargnani himself admitted a few months ago he sometimes gets lazy...doesn't know why.

You obviously watch the games, compare for yourself the games, and he has had them, where he is pounding the boards, playing inspired energetic defense, and of course scoring, to the ones where he is just scoring, or for that matter playing like crap.

I understand the injury/illness argument, however if he is that sick all the time, dude needs to start taking some vitamin C or something. He's a professional BB player and has access to docs, and equipment and trainers. (or is he too lazy to ask?)

[Multipaul]

Not running up the court, not moving when the ball bounces off the rim, getting beat down the court by opposing players, doesn't move his feet and so on.
Bargnani himself admitted a few months ago he sometimes gets lazy...doesn't know why.

You obviously watch the games, compare for yourself the games, and he has had them, where he is pounding the boards, playing inspired energetic defense, and of course scoring, to the ones where he is just scoring, or for that matter playing like crap.

I understand the injury/illness argument, however if he is that sick all the time, dude needs to start taking some vitamin C or something. He's a professional BB player and has access to docs, and equipment and trainers. (or is he too lazy to ask?)

In an interview he was asked why he doesnt grab more rebs. this was in the locker room after a game. He looked pissed off at the reporter. He said "lazy I guess, I dont know". Do you think he was being serious? People take stuff way out of context.