Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[JoePanini]

Judging from the way you talk about hoops, I don't think you have ever played. I'll give you a pass. I don't need to justify my arguments to you. Watch some more hoops and you will learn something. Educated opinions hold alot more weight, FYI.

Really? Who do you think you are?

[Maleko]

Judging from the way you talk about hoops, I don't think you have ever played. I'll give you a pass. I don't need to justify my arguments to you. Watch some more hoops and you will learn something. Educated opinions hold alot more weight, FYI.

By the way yes I did play hoops, PG in fact. Have probably been watching and playing longer than you have been alive son, and you are right you do not need to justify your statements, but they are not arguments. You do not accept facts and stats, and you have rebuttals with slings and conjecture when stats and facts are presented to you.

That's a pretty weak rebuttal.

Yup.

[Multipaul]

Really? Who do you think you are?

Batman

[Multipaul]

By the way yes I did play hoops, PG in fact. Have probably been watching and playing longer than you have been alive son, and you are right you do not need to justify your statements, but they are not arguments. You do not accept facts and stats, and you have rebuttals with slings and conjecture when stats and facts are presented to you.



Yup.

Listen, I dont want to argue with you, and perhaps my comment to you was too harsh. Sorry. I just know that you and I will never agree on this point, so why argue about it, know what i mean?

[Maleko]

Listen, I dont want to argue with you, and perhaps my comment to you was too harsh. Sorry. I just know that you and I will never agree on this point, so why argue about it, know what i mean?

Agreed.

[Multipaul]

Agreed.

I deleted my earlier post to you, that was too harsh. Sorry about that.

[MangoKid]

You would prefer what? That I disagree with his analysis of how much "effort" a player puts in?

There is not point in me arguing over and over again with someone. We just disagree, and I think that Maleko's comments show a lack of understanding of hoops.

Argue it at least. Don't just say some BS like " you must not have played ball". Unless the statement the person has made a real outlandish statement, then comments like the one you made is just fodder, it's pointless. If you think he makes a real effort, then say how he does. Maybe on offense he makes an effort but sweet fancy moses, on defense, the kid's invisible. He's always caught out of position. And there's no effort on his part to rebound. There's no pride on defense. He appears to let guys go around him at will. It's like el matador defense, and for a guy that's 7 feet, he should be a MUCH better rebounder than he is. He should be grabbing at least 7 boards per. At least.

I don't understand how his comments show a lack of understand of hoops. I understood him perfectly. At this point, you're just being a instigator.

[Multipaul]

Argue it at least. Don't just say some BS like " you must not have played ball". Unless the statement the person has made a real outlandish statement, then comments like the one you made is just fodder, it's pointless. If you think he makes a real effort, then say how he does. Maybe on offense he makes an effort but sweet fancy moses, on defense, the kid's invisible. He's always caught out of position. And there's no effort on his part to rebound. There's no pride on defense. He appears to let guys go around him at will. It's like el matador defense, and for a guy that's 7 feet, he should be a MUCH better rebounder than he is. He should be grabbing at least 7 boards per. At least.

I don't understand how his comments show a lack of understand of hoops. I understood him perfectly. At this point, you're just being a instigator.

Alright.....

I think when people are evaluating someones "effort" , it is a completely subjective concept. It's like saying "that chick is hotter than that other chick" and your friend disagrees with you.

You can't throw stats on effort, I personally think Bargs puts in a decent effort every night. But how can I prove that? I mean, you guys say he doesnt put in an effort when he grabs 22 pts and 3 boards. But Amir scores like 5 pts and 2 boards and that's effort?

The truth is you all take 20pts per game as if it was nothing. No effort required. Therefore I cannot argue within the framework of your paradigm of logic, which has been applied with one norm exclusively on bargs, and with another standard to other players.

If DD scores 13 pts and 2 rebs, you would say he put in a good effort. bargs gets 25 pts and 5 boards and you say "no effort, no heart, no driver". It is completely paradoxical.

Henceforth, there is no point in arguing these ephemoral concepts with anyone.

Arguing effort is like arguing "hotness", "coolness", "how funny someone is".

Numbers tell the story, 20+ ppg takes one thing- EFFORT

[heinz57]

more importantly, how hot was the chick?

[bloodyhandedgod]

more importantly, how hot was the chick?

*perks up*


Where's the hawt chick?

[Multipaul]

*perks up*


Where's the hawt chick?

Google image search "Emma Frain"...you won't be disappointed. Take off your safe search.

Tim W will probably argue her hooters dont "put in enough effort" though...

[heinz57]

Google image search "Emma Frain"...you won't be disappointed. Take off your safe search.

emma frain = nice.

no straight man should ever have their safe search turned on... EVER... unless they have children who use their computer

if porn doesnt come up when i search for completely mundane things... my internet experience is completely ruined.

[Tim W.]

Here are your answers:

1. Why do you criticize DeRozan's defense but give a pass to Bargnani's poor defense?

I didn't criticize it, more point out that it is not good, and not up to the level it should be. I never said Bargs is a great defender.

This is the exact type of statement that bugs a lot of people. You don't criticize, you point out. Well, that's what I do with Bargnani then. I don't criticize, I simply point things out. And you never said Bargnani is a great defender, but he's not even an average defender. He's a poor one. A very poor one. Why would you point out that DeRozan's defense isn't good, when at least it's better than Bargnani's, whose poor defense you've never once "pointed out". Again, I ask why.

2. Why do you criticize DeRozan for not driving more to the hoop when he, in fact, drives more than Bargnani does?

I dont think you are correct here

I already typed out the stats to back me up, but here they are again:

Bargnani takes 20% of his shots close to the hoop, and 67% of those are assisted. What that means is that, at most, 13.4% of Bargnani shots are Bargnani taking the ball from the outside and driving it to the hoop.

DeRozan takes 27% of his shots close to the hoop, and 59% of those shots are assisted, meaning that, at most, 15.9% of DeRozan's shots are drives to the basket.

These are obviously not conclusive stats, but they give you a pretty good picture of how each player plays.

Of course, those aren't the only stats we can look at.

Bargnani's FTA/FGA percentage is 29.9%, which means that for every 100 shots he attempts, he gets to the line just under 30 times.

DeRozan's FTA/FGA percentage is 33.8%, which means he gets to the line at a higher rate than Bargnani.

Player's that drive to the hoop more go to the line more.

Of course, from watching, we know that a good deal of Bargnani's free throw attempts come from pump fakes, whereas the majority of DeRozan's free throw attempts come from drives to the basket.

In conclusion, I think there is overwhelming evidence to support my claim that Bargnani DOES NOT drive to the basket more than DeRozan, and probably drives less.

3. You have questioned my loyalty to the Raptors and called me a hater for being critical of Bargnani, but you, yourself, admitted that you have never liked Bosh. Don't you feel that's hypocritical?

I am not. Bosh did very detrimental things to the team and to the city. He ruined this club, and tricked MLSE, GM, coach, etc. Ask BC, Triano, etc, how they feel about Bosh. I know you are a perennial Bosh lover, so I will say no more on this.

I am not commenting on how you feel about Bosh now. I couldn't care less. But you admitted that you NEVER liked Bosh, even while he was still a Raptor. You were very critical of Bosh while he was still a Raptor and when there was still a chance he could re-sign.

As for my feelings on Bosh, I don't have any. I don't follow him or care any more or less about him than any other player. It's called being objective. Something I try and do with all players, even Raptor players. Calling me a "perennial Bosh lover" is yet another way to try and minimize my argument while ignoring the facts of it. It's immature and pointless.

4. Why did you claim that Bargnani averaged 6.5 rpg and 2 bpg since January 1st, when he's actually averaged 5 rpg and 0.7 bpg? Where did you get the incorrect information and why did you not respond when it was brought to your attention?

That info was from Raptors Republic

Yes, you posted it there. I never saw it anywhere else. Did someone else post it somewhere else? Where exactly? And you didn't look to see whether this was true? This is the problem. Anything that strengthens your argument you take at face value, but anything that contradicts it you don't even listen to. This is why people say you have blinders on.

5. Why have you been so critical of Amir, yet continually laud Wayne Winston's mathletics, which show he's just as valuable as Bargnani to the Raptors?

Amir has lost us many games due to repeated fouling, turnovers, etc in clutch situations. He has a low basketball IQ which jeopardizes our capacity to win on many nights. How did you like his stat line last night? PWNED

Okay, well, first of all, Amir is playing hurt. And you say in the next answer that you NEVER criticize players when they play hurt. Apparently that's not true.

Besides, how many games has Bargnani's subpar play and bad defense cost the Raptors games? Bargnani has a very low defensive basketball IQ. He doesn't shoot very well in crunch time (40%). In fact, Amir has better "clutch" stats than Bargnani does.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM#clutch
http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR15.HTM#clutch

So if you "point out" Amir's problems in the clutch, you have to "point out" Bargnani's, too.

6. Why do you not accept subpar games from, for example, Amir Johnson when he is playing injured, but excuse Bargnani for subpar games for exactly the same reason?

If someone is injured and playing through it, I have NEVER criticized them.

You've done it on more than one occasion, including above.

7. Why are you so critical of DeRozan for not raising his game when Bargnani is out when Bargnani had lower stats across the board in games last year that Bosh was out?

Dero has been a starting 2 since day 1. He should be better. Bosh was lucky to have Bargs. Right now there is no one other than Bargs that can get you a guaranteed 20+ pts per game.

What does it matter whether he's been starting or not. Bargnani was in his fourth season and had been a regular starter for well over a year, and in games Bosh did not play Bargnani's stats decreased across the board. And that means he did not average 20 ppg. So last year, the only player who can get a guaranteed 20+ppg was Bosh. Did you "point out" Bargnani's shortcomings last year or did you make excuses for them?

In other words, Bargnani struggled with EXACTLY the same problem that DeRozan stuggled with this year. The difference, however, is that DeRozan is only in his second year while Bargnani was in his fourth.

And by the way, for a guy who is "guaranteed" to score 20+ppg, why is it there have been 24 games when he scored less than that? That's more than a quarter of the games! That doesn't sound like a "guaranteed" 20+ppg to me.

I don't expect you to "cease criticizing me"- that statement alone validates what I said about you. You hate Bargs and you hate his fans. I don't call you an all out "hater", since you obviously love trying to get under peoples skin and be confrontational.

More than likely you will get your wish, BC and Bargs will be gone, and I expect next year you have little to no contributions to this site until you find a new person and their fanbase to hate. I'm betting it will be whomever we draft. Tim W- "Kemba sucks", "Kyrie sucks", etc

This is probably the biggest problem I have with you. I've said it over and over again. I don't hate Bargnani. I have no personal feelings at all about Bargnani. I am, however, passionate about my belief that you can't win with him and it would be best for the team if he were traded. And I'm certainly not a minority in this opinion.

And I certainly don't hate Bargnani fans. I get along with anyone that is reasonable, including several self-professed Bargnani fans. What these people don't do is call people haters for disagreeing with them, or ignore facts and arguments that contradict their argument.

The fact that you think that I only "point out" Bargnani's faults because I'm a hater is exactly the problem. You don't want to listen to my argument, so you categorize me in a way that allows you to disregard anything I say. You know what? Whether you would like to believe it or not, I actually have very good reasons to "point out" Bargnani's faults as I do. I don't do it to be a "hater". I do it because he really is an extremely poor defender who actually is a liability half the time he is on the floor. I do it because when he isn't scoring at least 26 points, he brings nothing else to the team. And in only a quarter of the games did Bargnani score 26 points or more. So in 3/4 of the games, Bargnani's inability to do anything except score was a liability to the team.

Your accusation that I'm simply a "hater" completely ignores the fact that I strongly feel that a team needs to play defense to win consistently, and you can't have a weak link on defense, like Bargnani, and win consistently. You can point to other players as much as you want (which you do), but none of that changes the fact that Bargnani is a very poor defender and plays a position where that's a major, major problem.

Again, I await your response.

[Multipaul]

This is the exact type of statement that bugs a lot of people. You don't criticize, you point out. Well, that's what I do with Bargnani then. I don't criticize, I simply point things out. And you never said Bargnani is a great defender, but he's not even an average defender. He's a poor one. A very poor one. Why would you point out that DeRozan's defense isn't good, when at least it's better than Bargnani's, whose poor defense you've never once "pointed out". Again, I ask why.



I already typed out the stats to back me up, but here they are again:

Bargnani takes 20% of his shots close to the hoop, and 67% of those are assisted. What that means is that, at most, 13.4% of Bargnani shots are Bargnani taking the ball from the outside and driving it to the hoop.

DeRozan takes 27% of his shots close to the hoop, and 59% of those shots are assisted, meaning that, at most, 15.9% of DeRozan's shots are drives to the basket.

These are obviously not conclusive stats, but they give you a pretty good picture of how each player plays.

Of course, those aren't the only stats we can look at.

Bargnani's FTA/FGA percentage is 29.9%, which means that for every 100 shots he attempts, he gets to the line just under 30 times.

DeRozan's FTA/FGA percentage is 33.8%, which means he gets to the line at a higher rate than Bargnani.

Player's that drive to the hoop more go to the line more.

Of course, from watching, we know that a good deal of Bargnani's free throw attempts come from pump fakes, whereas the majority of DeRozan's free throw attempts come from drives to the basket.

In conclusion, I think there is overwhelming evidence to support my claim that Bargnani DOES NOT drive to the basket more than DeRozan, and probably drives less.



I am not commenting on how you feel about Bosh now. I couldn't care less. But you admitted that you NEVER liked Bosh, even while he was still a Raptor. You were very critical of Bosh while he was still a Raptor and when there was still a chance he could re-sign.

As for my feelings on Bosh, I don't have any. I don't follow him or care any more or less about him than any other player. It's called being objective. Something I try and do with all players, even Raptor players. Calling me a "perennial Bosh lover" is yet another way to try and minimize my argument while ignoring the facts of it. It's immature and pointless.



Yes, you posted it there. I never saw it anywhere else. Did someone else post it somewhere else? Where exactly? And you didn't look to see whether this was true? This is the problem. Anything that strengthens your argument you take at face value, but anything that contradicts it you don't even listen to. This is why people say you have blinders on.



Okay, well, first of all, Amir is playing hurt. And you say in the next answer that you NEVER criticize players when they play hurt. Apparently that's not true.

Besides, how many games has Bargnani's subpar play and bad defense cost the Raptors games? Bargnani has a very low defensive basketball IQ. He doesn't shoot very well in crunch time (40%). In fact, Amir has better "clutch" stats than Bargnani does.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM#clutch
http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR15.HTM#clutch

So if you "point out" Amir's problems in the clutch, you have to "point out" Bargnani's, too.



You've done it on more than one occasion, including above.



What does it matter whether he's been starting or not. Bargnani was in his fourth season and had been a regular starter for well over a year, and in games Bosh did not play Bargnani's stats decreased across the board. And that means he did not average 20 ppg. So last year, the only player who can get a guaranteed 20+ppg was Bosh. Did you "point out" Bargnani's shortcomings last year or did you make excuses for them?

In other words, Bargnani struggled with EXACTLY the same problem that DeRozan stuggled with this year. The difference, however, is that DeRozan is only in his second year while Bargnani was in his fourth.

And by the way, for a guy who is "guaranteed" to score 20+ppg, why is it there have been 24 games when he scored less than that? That's more than a quarter of the games! That doesn't sound like a "guaranteed" 20+ppg to me.



This is probably the biggest problem I have with you. I've said it over and over again. I don't hate Bargnani. I have no personal feelings at all about Bargnani. I am, however, passionate about my belief that you can't win with him and it would be best for the team if he were traded. And I'm certainly not a minority in this opinion.

And I certainly don't hate Bargnani fans. I get along with anyone that is reasonable, including several self-professed Bargnani fans. What these people don't do is call people haters for disagreeing with them, or ignore facts and arguments that contradict their argument.

The fact that you think that I only "point out" Bargnani's faults because I'm a hater is exactly the problem. You don't want to listen to my argument, so you categorize me in a way that allows you to disregard anything I say. You know what? Whether you would like to believe it or not, I actually have very good reasons to "point out" Bargnani's faults as I do. I don't do it to be a "hater". I do it because he really is an extremely poor defender who actually is a liability half the time he is on the floor. I do it because when he isn't scoring at least 26 points, he brings nothing else to the team. And in only a quarter of the games did Bargnani score 26 points or more. So in 3/4 of the games, Bargnani's inability to do anything except score was a liability to the team.

Your accusation that I'm simply a "hater" completely ignores the fact that I strongly feel that a team needs to play defense to win consistently, and you can't have a weak link on defense, like Bargnani, and win consistently. You can point to other players as much as you want (which you do), but none of that changes the fact that Bargnani is a very poor defender and plays a position where that's a major, major problem.

Again, I await your response.

Again, you say you have a "problem with me"

Based on the "heat" in your argument, you don't have to be an expert to say that you hate Bargs, and to a certain extent, the Raptors.

[DunkinDerozan]

The fact that you think that I only "point out" Bargnani's faults because I'm a hater is exactly the problem. You don't want to listen to my argument, so you categorize me in a way that allows you to disregard anything I say. You know what? Whether you would like to believe it or not, I actually have very good reasons to "point out" Bargnani's faults as I do. I don't do it to be a "hater". I do it because he really is an extremely poor defender who actually is a liability half the time he is on the floor. I do it because when he isn't scoring at least 26 points, he brings nothing else to the team. And in only a quarter of the games did Bargnani score 26 points or more. So in 3/4 of the games, Bargnani's inability to do anything except score was a liability to the team. Your accusation that I'm simply a "hater" completely ignores the fact that I strongly feel that a team needs to play defense to win consistently, and you can't have a weak link on defense, like Bargnani, and win consistently. You can point to other players as much as you want (which you do), but none of that changes the fact that Bargnani is a very poor defender and plays a position where that's a major, major problem. .

Its statements like these which make me question if you do in fact watch the games. It seems to me you review the box score look at Bargnani’s rebound totals compare them to the other teams opposing players (who you assume he would be guarding) and just draw your conclusions accordingly. With other defenders this strategy may work. However since Bargnani is talented enough to guard multiple positions he often guards a variety big man throughout the game. He’s big enough to guard opposing centers yet agile enough to guard quicker more agile Power forwards. If you actually (watched the game) and tracked the number of times the man he was guarding scored against him vs the attempts you would be surprised to find that:
Last night he was guarding a much smaller yet quicker forward in L. Mbah a Moute the guy shoots 2/7 that’s a clip of under 30%. This is a strong indicator that
a) Teams don’t / can’t attack him so they pass the ball
b) They shoot a very low poor percentage when they do attack him
As oppose to:
Bogut / Gooden were guarded by Ed/ Amir and they combined to shoot 16/29 which is a 55% clip.
So based on these numbers its fairly conclusive that
a) The bucks were much more willing to attack our supposed defensive gems Ed and Amir
b) They were much more willing and successful at attack Ed and Amir as appose to Andrea
Now again these numbers may be a tad off ass there may have been a few switches but basically to sum up …
KING BARGS NSN -BWO

[Multipaul]

Its statements like these which make me question if you do in fact watch the games. It seems to me you review the box score look at Bargnani’s rebound totals compare them to the other teams opposing players (who you assume he would be guarding) and just draw your conclusions accordingly. With other defenders this strategy may work. However since Bargnani is talented enough to guard multiple positions he often guards a variety big man throughout the game. He’s big enough to guard opposing centers yet agile enough to guard quicker more agile Power forwards. If you actually (watched the game) and tracked the number of times the man he was guarding scored against him vs the attempts you would be surprised to find that:
Last night he was guarding a much smaller yet quicker forward in L. Mbah a Moute the guy shoots 2/7 that’s a clip of under 30%. This is a strong indicator that
a) Teams don’t / can’t attack him so they pass the ball
b) They shoot a very low poor percentage when they do attack him
As oppose to:
Bogut / Gooden were guarded by Ed/ Amir and they combined to shoot 16/29 which is a 55% clip.
So based on these numbers its fairly conclusive that
a) The bucks were much more willing to attack our supposed defensive gems Ed and Amir
b) They were much more willing and successful at attack Ed and Amir as appose to Andrea
Now again these numbers may be a tad off ass there may have been a few switches but basically to sum up …
KING BARGS NSN -BWO

Long live the KING!

BWO!

No Haters Needed

[DunkinDerozan]

Long live the KING!

BWO!

No Haters Needed

+7

[Tim W.]

Again, you say you have a "problem with me"

Based on the "heat" in your argument, you don't have to be an expert to say that you hate Bargs, and to a certain extent, the Raptors.

Yes, I have a problem with you. Not because you like Bargnani, but because you call people haters that disagree with you. Because you constantly "point out" other player's flaws, while ignoring those same exact flaws in Bargnani. Because you do things like you just did, say I hate the Raptors, simply because of one player I want to be traded, despite having been a Raptor fan since day one. And because after I typed all that, you don't respond to any of my actual arguments, but respond with an insult. You ignored my facts about comparing Bargnani's drives vs DeRozan's drives, my comment about about you being critical of Bosh while he was a Raptor, about Bargnani's inability to score consistently when Bosh was out last year, about Amir having better clutch stats than Bargnani, and about the fact that you do indeed criticize players when they are playing hurt, despite your assertion that you don't. I have a problem because as soon as someone tries to draw you in on a debate about facts, you turn it personal.

Why is it I've been able to have reasonable discussions with Bargnani fans such as Joe Panini and Matt52, among others, and still gotten along well with them? The main reason is they don't see a criticism of Bargnani as some sort of personal attack on them. They don't resort to calling someone who disagrees with them a hater. They don't try and evade questions that they may not like the answer to. I suggest you follow their lead.

And I'm still waiting for your responses to my last post.

[heinz57]

Tim "The Termin-hater" W.

j/k

i hate bargs arguments.

[Multipaul]

Yes, I have a problem with you. Not because you like Bargnani, but because you call people haters that disagree with you. Because you constantly "point out" other player's flaws, while ignoring those same exact flaws in Bargnani. Because you do things like you just did, say I hate the Raptors, simply because of one player I want to be traded, despite having been a Raptor fan since day one. And because after I typed all that, you don't respond to any of my actual arguments, but respond with an insult. You ignored my facts about comparing Bargnani's drives vs DeRozan's drives, my comment about about you being critical of Bosh while he was a Raptor, about Bargnani's inability to score consistently when Bosh was out last year, about Amir having better clutch stats than Bargnani, and about the fact that you do indeed criticize players when they are playing hurt, despite your assertion that you don't. I have a problem because as soon as someone tries to draw you in on a debate about facts, you turn it personal.

Why is it I've been able to have reasonable discussions with Bargnani fans such as Joe Panini and Matt52, among others, and still gotten along well with them? The main reason is they don't see a criticism of Bargnani as some sort of personal attack on them. They don't resort to calling someone who disagrees with them a hater. They don't try and evade questions that they may not like the answer to. I suggest you follow their lead.

And I'm still waiting for your responses to my last post.

Again, I called you a BARGNANI HATER- do you dispute that?

I don't think you are a "hater" in general.

I think Bosh is a lil biotch and always hated him, I don't need to get in another Bosh hating argument with anyone.

I like your comments and I think you know alot about hoops, and I feel bad that you hate me and my boy King Bargs. By hating Bargs, a Raptor, you do in some small way hate the Raptors, at least the % of them named Il Mago