View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4301
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Again, I called you a BARGNANI HATER- do you dispute that?

    I don't think you are a "hater" in general.

    I think Bosh is a lil biotch and always hated him, I don't need to get in another Bosh hating argument with anyone.

    I like your comments and I think you know alot about hoops, and I feel bad that you hate me and my boy King Bargs. By hating Bargs, a Raptor, you do in some small way hate the Raptors, at least the % of them named Il Mago
    Unfortuantly each indivudal player counts the same and since there's 15 players who make up the team he ironically happens to hates 7% of the raptors lool. I do appologize in advance if you are in fact not a bargnani hater.

  2. #4302
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    nothing wrong with a little hate...

    i hate (in this exact order):

    1. chris bosh
    2. kobe bryant
    3. michael jordan
    4. celery
    5. mass genocide

    hate is healthy.

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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Unfortuantly each indivudal player counts the same and since there's 15 players who make up the team he ironically happens to hates 7% of the raptors lool. I do appologize in advance if you are in fact not a bargnani hater.
    King Bargs FTW!

    Tim W hates Bargs yo, it's a fact. And he has yet to comment on Emma Frain as well, which is also suspicious..

  4. #4304
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Tim "The Termin-hater" W.

    j/k

    i hate bargs arguments.
    i know how you feel it gets so annoying defending him when his game clearly speaks for itself

  5. #4305
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    King Bargs FTW!

    Tim W hates Bargs yo, it's a fact. And he has yet to comment on Emma Frain as well, which is also suspicious..
    dammnnn shes smokkinggg...

  6. #4306
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    his beard speaks for itself too.

    but what it says, is exactly the same thing the pubes on my balls are saying.

    something about liking primo spaghetti sauce.

  7. #4307
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Its statements like these which make me question if you do in fact watch the games. It seems to me you review the box score look at Bargnani’s rebound totals compare them to the other teams opposing players (who you assume he would be guarding) and just draw your conclusions accordingly. With other defenders this strategy may work. However since Bargnani is talented enough to guard multiple positions he often guards a variety big man throughout the game. He’s big enough to guard opposing centers yet agile enough to guard quicker more agile Power forwards. If you actually (watched the game) and tracked the number of times the man he was guarding scored against him vs the attempts you would be surprised to find that:
    Last night he was guarding a much smaller yet quicker forward in L. Mbah a Moute the guy shoots 2/7 that’s a clip of under 30%. This is a strong indicator that
    a) Teams don’t / can’t attack him so they pass the ball
    b) They shoot a very low poor percentage when they do attack him
    As oppose to:
    Bogut / Gooden were guarded by Ed/ Amir and they combined to shoot 16/29 which is a 55% clip.
    So based on these numbers its fairly conclusive that
    a) The bucks were much more willing to attack our supposed defensive gems Ed and Amir
    b) They were much more willing and successful at attack Ed and Amir as appose to Andrea
    Now again these numbers may be a tad off ass there may have been a few switches but basically to sum up …
    KING BARGS NSN -BWO
    I've watched all but two Raptor games all year. Every single minute of those games. And there's a very good reason that Bargnani is usually asked to defend the weaker offensive player. It's not because he's versatile or can defend multiple positions. It's because he has trouble guarding ANY position. When Amir Johnson and Ed Davis, who are slight for PFs, are asked to defend centers because the Raptor center can't, you know there's a problem. And there's a very good reason that Bargnani is consistently removed on defensive possessions at the end of close games. It's not because he's a good defender.

    Bargnani is a below average man to man defender who, against certain type of opponents, can play well. The type of player he usually does okay against are back to the basket type players who don't move well East-West. Bargnani's biggest strength on defense is his length and the fact that he basically doesn't react well. That means he doesn't fall for fakes, so a player who uses a lot of fakes in the post has trouble. Of course, Bargnani too often gives up deep position, so that hurts him. As does the fact that he has trouble defending faceup players who can put the ball on the floor.

    I don't pay attention to the box scores of opponents. I go by what I see in games. I don't know if I'm seeing more than you, but the fact that advance stats, that chart who a player was actually defending, pretty much backs me position up.

    As for help defense, I don't think there can be any debate that Bargnani is awful. Davis and Amir, while slight, at least know when and where to rotate, how to hedge on the pick and roll and protect the lane.

    And I don't go on one game. Drawing results from a single game is silly. You need to look at a much bigger pool. And when you look at he entire season, Bargnani is a poor defender. And, quite frankly, I really don't understand how you can argue otherwise. At this point, it seems to be a well understood fact.
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Again, I called you a BARGNANI HATER- do you dispute that?

    I don't think you are a "hater" in general.

    I think Bosh is a lil biotch and always hated him, I don't need to get in another Bosh hating argument with anyone.

    I like your comments and I think you know alot about hoops, and I feel bad that you hate me and my boy King Bargs. By hating Bargs, a Raptor, you do in some small way hate the Raptors, at least the % of them named Il Mago
    I'm still waiting for an actual response to my argument. Unfortunately, this is exactly what you do whenever anyone tries to argue facts with you. I'm still waiting....
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm still waiting for an actual response to my argument. Unfortunately, this is exactly what you do whenever anyone tries to argue facts with you. I'm still waiting....
    Ok I will make you a deal, you give me your opinion on Emma Frain, and I will answer your questions directly. Please list which questions you want answered and I will do it no prob

  10. #4310
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm still waiting for an actual response to my argument. Unfortunately, this is exactly what you do whenever anyone tries to argue facts with you. I'm still waiting....
    FWIW, I have to agree. I would like to read/hear pro-Bargnani arguments rather than jabs at Tim. I don't always agree with Tim but he always has rational reasons for his views.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    FWIW, I have to agree. I would like to read/hear pro-Bargnani arguments rather than jabs at Tim. I don't always agree with Tim but he always has rational reasons for his views.
    You have to acknowledge that the jabs are flying both ways in this situation though Matt52

  12. #4312
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Ok I will make you a deal, you give me your opinion on Emma Frain, and I will answer your questions directly. Please list which questions you want answered and I will do it no prob
    Why on earth do you want to know my opinion of this woman? It has nothing to do with the discussion, at hand. If it makes you actually have a discussion, I'll say that I'd never heard of her before, but she's incredibly hot.

    Now please respond to each point I made in comment #2640.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    You have to acknowledge that the jabs are flying both ways in this situation though Matt52
    No doubt but logical arguments have been laid out recently to which there has been little to no reasonable reply.

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    Tim, I have highlighted your comments to me in bold. My comments/replies are in the non-bold font. Hopefully this will appease/satisfy your thirst

    Bargnani takes 20% of his shots close to the hoop, and 67% of those are assisted. What that means is that, at most, 13.4% of Bargnani shots are Bargnani taking the ball from the outside and driving it to the hoop.

    DeRozan takes 27% of his shots close to the hoop, and 59% of those shots are assisted, meaning that, at most, 15.9% of DeRozan's shots are drives to the basket.

    These are obviously not conclusive stats, but they give you a pretty good picture of how each player plays.


    Bargs has the focus of most of hte defense on him. Usually double teams. He is more aggressive and breaks through the defense.

    Bargnani's FTA/FGA percentage is 29.9%, which means that for every 100 shots he attempts, he gets to the line just under 30 times.

    DeRozan's FTA/FGA percentage is 33.8%, which means he gets to the line at a higher rate than Bargnani.


    Bargs has more touches, lots of them from the perimeter and as bailouts on broken plays.

    In conclusion, I think there is overwhelming evidence to support my claim that Bargnani DOES NOT drive to the basket more than DeRozan, and probably drives less.

    Your stats are NOT OVERWHELMING. You have not incorporated # of touches and opponents defensive coverage into your figures. It's alot harder for Bargs as he attracts more attention. Therefore, his drives are more "meaningful". Also, when Bargs gets a double team, DD has a wide open lane to the hoop on many occasions. DD benefits from Bargs in this case.


    I am not commenting on how you feel about Bosh now. I couldn't care less. But you admitted that you NEVER liked Bosh, even while he was still a Raptor. You were very critical of Bosh while he was still a Raptor and when there was still a chance he could re-sign.

    You were consistently comparing Bargs to Bosh for many years, in an effort to posit Bosh as the "good" player, and Bargs as the "bad player".

    Yes, you posted it there. I never saw it anywhere else. Did someone else post it somewhere else?

    "Blogger Knows Best" post, comment #2 from Kaine. For the record, KAINE never lies


    kaine 04/30/2009 05:39 AM

    just to clarify the bargnani situation:

    his nummber from January 1 (40 games) are: 19ppg, 6.5rpg 2bpg with excellent shooting %.

    with less experience and a slower body, bargs already is a better defender than bosh, the wannabe mvp.

    I agree: you don't trade the superstar.
    but bosh is not a superstar, he has just the allure of one.

    he has the same number of zach randolph. is zach mvp worthy, superstar worthy?

    bosh is good. just not 133 million good.


    Read more: http://raptorsrepublic.com/2009/04/2...#ixzz1ICvnbT00



    Okay, well, first of all, Amir is playing hurt. And you say in the next answer that you NEVER criticize players when they play hurt. Apparently that's not true.

    Amir makes boneheaded plays. To take a page from your playbook "things that dont appear on the statline". Him and DD both do it. Turnovers, stupid fouls, they change the tide of a game irreversibly and kill momentum. Anyone watching a game can see that.

    Bargs shoots roughly 20ppg, that is almost guaranteed if you look at his average. Maybe one game he drops 18, the next game 35, but you get around 20 ppg guaranteed.


    This is probably the biggest problem I have with you.

    This is a problem I have:




    The fact that you think that I only "point out" Bargnani's faults because I'm a hater is exactly the problem. You don't want to listen to my argument, so you categorize me in a way that allows you to disregard anything I say.

    In every post I have ever read you usually refer to Bargs. For example, I made a post about DD the other day, "Demar Disappoints". You blatantly ignored the focus of the post and tried to subvert it into a Bargs hate on.

    Your accusation that I'm simply a "hater" completely ignores the fact that I strongly feel that a team needs to play defense to win consistently, and you can't have a weak link on defense, like Bargnani, and win consistently. You can point to other players as much as you want (which you do), but none of that changes the fact that Bargnani is a very poor defender and plays a position where that's a major, major problem.

    Again, I never said Bargs was a great defender. What has happened is that you have some archetype in mind for a Center in the NBA and Bargs does not match it.

    If I was MLSE or BC, I would not trade away 20-30 ppg, 5-6 reb.

    Finally, you seem to be very passionate, but mainly about arguing.

    I really have never seen a "positive" post from you.

    Are you happy?
    Last edited by Multipaul; Thu Mar 31st, 2011 at 04:16 PM.

  15. #4315
    Raptors Republic Rookie chunkable's Avatar
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    i just think that, as a rebuilding franchise, how can you not gamble on a potentially franchise-changing player? obviously it's more likely he'll be injured again than not, but no one can predict that.

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    Quote chunkable wrote: View Post
    i just think that, as a rebuilding franchise, how can you not gamble on a potentially franchise-changing player? obviously it's more likely he'll be injured again than not, but no one can predict that.
    BC said the same thing about Jermaine O'Neal. Dude was injured within the 1st mth. Look at him since- injured in MIA, injured in BOS

    IMO, not worth it at all

  17. #4317
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Bargnani takes 20% of his shots close to the hoop, and 67% of those are assisted. What that means is that, at most, 13.4% of Bargnani shots are Bargnani taking the ball from the outside and driving it to the hoop.

    DeRozan takes 27% of his shots close to the hoop, and 59% of those shots are assisted, meaning that, at most, 15.9% of DeRozan's shots are drives to the basket.

    These are obviously not conclusive stats, but they give you a pretty good picture of how each player plays.


    Bargs has the focus of most of hte defense on him. Usually double teams. He is more aggressive and breaks through the defense.
    This isn't an argument. It's an opinion and I don't really understand what it has to do with my point. If Bargnani is the focus of the defense, shouldn't he be getting to the line at a HIGHER rate? Being the focus of the defense doesn't stop most of the other top scorers from scoring inside and getting to the line.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Bargnani's FTA/FGA percentage is 29.9%, which means that for every 100 shots he attempts, he gets to the line just under 30 times.

    DeRozan's FTA/FGA percentage is 33.8%, which means he gets to the line at a higher rate than Bargnani.


    Bargs has more touches, lots of them from the perimeter and as bailouts on broken plays.
    The FTA/FGA percentage isn't affected by how many touches or shots a player takes. It's the best indicator of how aggressive a player no matter what role he has on the team.

    And yes, a lot of Bargnani's touches are on the perimeter, where the majority of his shots are taken. This doesn't back up your argument.

    And the number of times when Bargnani is asked to do something late in the shot clock is not high enough to have much of an effect on this number.

    Again, your point doesn't actually dispute mine.

    In conclusion, I think there is overwhelming evidence to support my claim that Bargnani DOES NOT drive to the basket more than DeRozan, and probably drives less.

    Your stats are NOT OVERWHELMING. You have not incorporated # of touches and opponents defensive coverage into your figures. It's alot harder for Bargs as he attracts more attention. Therefore, his drives are more "meaningful". Also, when Bargs gets a double team, DD has a wide open lane to the hoop on many occasions. DD benefits from Bargs in this case.[/QUOTE]

    I've never said DeRozan doesn't benefit from Bargnani being on the court. Obviously he does, but the fact is that you said that Bargnani drives to the hoop more than DeRozan, and while my evidence doesn't prove that is false, it certainly puts a lot of doubt onto it.

    And last season, when Bargnani was playing with Bosh, he had an even lower FTA/FGA percentage. The fact is that DeRozan's lowest percentage is higher than Bargnani's highest percentage. Once again, you're ignoring Bargnani's play last year when you criticize DeRozan.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I am not commenting on how you feel about Bosh now. I couldn't care less. But you admitted that you NEVER liked Bosh, even while he was still a Raptor. You were very critical of Bosh while he was still a Raptor and when there was still a chance he could re-sign.

    You were consistently comparing Bargs to Bosh for many years, in an effort to posit Bosh as the "good" player, and Bargs as the "bad player".
    You lost me here. I've only been on RR for two years and you've been on for about a year. Where on earth are you getting this information from? Besides, that has absolutely no correlation to my point. My point is that you consider someone who criticizes a player not a fan of the team, but you admitted that you've never liked Bosh. As well as numerous other players who you blame for Bargnani's faults.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Yes, you posted it there. I never saw it anywhere else. Did someone else post it somewhere else?

    "Blogger Knows Best" post, comment #2 from Kaine. For the record, KAINE never lies


    kaine 04/30/2009 05:39 AM

    just to clarify the bargnani situation:

    his nummber from January 1 (40 games) are: 19ppg, 6.5rpg 2bpg with excellent shooting %.

    with less experience and a slower body, bargs already is a better defender than bosh, the wannabe mvp.

    I agree: you don't trade the superstar.
    but bosh is not a superstar, he has just the allure of one.

    he has the same number of zach randolph. is zach mvp worthy, superstar worthy?

    bosh is good. just not 133 million good.


    Read more: http://raptorsrepublic.com/2009/04/2...#ixzz1ICvnbT00
    Look at the date of the post. It was from 2009. Besides, didn't those numbers strike you as a little odd of you thought it was from this season? Again, you took something that backed up your opinion at face value, without questioning it at all.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Okay, well, first of all, Amir is playing hurt. And you say in the next answer that you NEVER criticize players when they play hurt. Apparently that's not true.

    Amir makes boneheaded plays. To take a page from your playbook "things that dont appear on the statline". Him and DD both do it. Turnovers, stupid fouls, they change the tide of a game irreversibly and kill momentum. Anyone watching a game can see that.

    Bargs shoots roughly 20ppg, that is almost guaranteed if you look at his average. Maybe one game he drops 18, the next game 35, but you get around 20 ppg guaranteed.
    ALL the Raptor players make boneheaded plays, INCLUDING Bargnani. That's why they've only won 20 games. You can't blame other players and exclude Bargnani from doing the same thing.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    This is probably the biggest problem I have with you.

    This is a problem I have:

    If you look like that, you do have a problem.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    The fact that you think that I only "point out" Bargnani's faults because I'm a hater is exactly the problem. You don't want to listen to my argument, so you categorize me in a way that allows you to disregard anything I say.

    In every post I have ever read you usually refer to Bargs. For example, I made a post about DD the other day, "Demar Disappoints". You blatantly ignored the focus of the post and tried to subvert it into a Bargs hate on.
    Sorry, but did you read your original post for that thread?...

    So who watched the Clilps game? I gotta tell you, I knew we would lose. We had no closer. With King Bargs on the sidelines, who is gonna step up?

    Check the stats- Demar was chucking bricks and got annihilated by must-see BG.

    Is THIS our future "franchise" guy. All the Bargs haters take notice, Double D proved he's not there yet. This team will be in rough shape next year if he is our #1 option. Yikes!
    YOU brought Bargnani into the discussion. I just pointed out the obvious. And I bring LOTS of players into discussions. Bargnani is the Raptor who plays the most minutes and takes the most shots, so he's obviously a big topic of discussion among Raptor fans. Most of YOUR posts are about Bargnani, and there were enough threads to combine them into one big one.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Your accusation that I'm simply a "hater" completely ignores the fact that I strongly feel that a team needs to play defense to win consistently, and you can't have a weak link on defense, like Bargnani, and win consistently. You can point to other players as much as you want (which you do), but none of that changes the fact that Bargnani is a very poor defender and plays a position where that's a major, major problem.

    Again, I never said Bargs was a great defender. What has happened is that you have some archetype in mind for a Center in the NBA and Bargs does not match it.

    If I was MLSE or BC, I would not trade away 20-30 ppg, 5-6 reb.

    Finally, you seem to be very passionate, but mainly about arguing.

    I really have never seen a "positive" post from you.

    Are you happy?
    I've said plenty of positive things about Ed Davis, Amir, DeRozan, Calderon and even Triano and Colangelo. I've said plenty of positive things about the future of the organization, too. I've even defended Bargnani on occasions when I feel he was being unjustly attacked. But speaking of which, I'd be hard pressed to find ANY positive posts from you about any Raptor other than Bargnani. The post I grabbed from the "DeMar Disappoints" is a perfect example. You've attacked DeRozan, Amir and Calderon, as well as Triano and just about any other Raptor who you feel has made Bargnani look bad on defense. And I'm not even close to the only one who has noticed that.

    As for Bargnani, I've said time and time again that I have a minimum standard for ANY basketball player. Bargnani doesn't meet that standard. I have never had a problem with what he does on offense. If he wants to stand outside and take jumpers, then, as long as he does it well, all power to him. But he's 7 feet and is a bad defender and rebounder. I don't care whether he plays center, PF or SF. He's literally a liability to the team half the time he's on the court. That's unacceptable. And what's even more unacceptable is that most of the time, he doesn't even appear to be trying. And it's not just me saying that. There are many of his fans who have become frustrated from seeing the same thing.

    And I know you've never claimed Bargnani was a great defender. I've never accused you of doing so. But there's a big, big, big difference between someone not being a great defender and simply being a bad defender. Amir Johnson isn't a great defender, but he's a good one, at least. DeMar DeRozan isn't a great player, but he's far from being a horrible one. Bargnani also isn't a great player, but I would never say he's a bad one. I would say he's a bad defender, though. And accusing someone of being a bad defender while you ignore that same fault in your own favourite player is, I'm sorry to say, extremely hypocritical.
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    Well, I can appreciate all your points, and regarding the stats, that is true, you are right, my bad.

    Again, the stats you employed DO NOT prove your point, as indicated, they "create doubt", but by no means are factual.

    With respect to defense, I see DD get burned by his mark just as much as Bargs. Lets agree that neither one are great on D right now. And as I said, I think DD will develop, I just hoped for more. I see him take the foot off the gas in lots of games, maybe hiding in Bargs' shadow?

    This comment strikes me as weird:

    "And accusing someone of being a bad defender while you ignore that same fault in your own favourite player is I'm sorry to say, extremely hypocritical. "

    Lets think about what you said there for a moment. I am a hypocrite if I am having a specific discussion about a player, and not reference that another player is also bad?

    Think about that Tim, seriously, as grown folks.

    Thats like saying "I really hate this level in Killzone 3...but...I also hate a different level in Call of Duty"

    Like...both are video games, but I am talking about something specific.

    Another example "wow, I just bought a new Audi, it drives really fast....but BMWs are also fast!"

    Your logic here is wayyyyy out of left field sorry to say.

    I can talk about DD and Bargs separately, the same way I can talk about apples and oranges separately

  19. #4319
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    Current events form future trends. The more I think about it the more I feel that the Raptors don't need to be tossing money at this guy. Otherwise why don't they go grab May and Livingston while they're at it.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Current events form future trends. The more I think about it the more I feel that the Raptors don't need to be tossing money at this guy. Otherwise why don't they go grab May and Livingston while they're at it.
    "current events form future trends"

    I like that.

    Where there's smoke, there's fire

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