Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Tim W.]

Well, I can appreciate all your points, and regarding the stats, that is true, you are right, my bad.

Again, the stats you employed DO NOT prove your point, as indicated, they "create doubt", but by no means are factual.

With respect to defense, I see DD get burned by his mark just as much as Bargs. Lets agree that neither one are great on D right now. And as I said, I think DD will develop, I just hoped for more. I see him take the foot off the gas in lots of games, maybe hiding in Bargs' shadow?

This comment strikes me as weird:

"And accusing someone of being a bad defender while you ignore that same fault in your own favourite player is I'm sorry to say, extremely hypocritical. "

Lets think about what you said there for a moment. I am a hypocrite if I am having a specific discussion about a player, and not reference that another player is also bad?

Think about that Tim, seriously, as grown folks.

Thats like saying "I really hate this level in Killzone 3...but...I also hate a different level in Call of Duty"

Like...both are video games, but I am talking about something specific.

Another example "wow, I just bought a new Audi, it drives really fast....but BMWs are also fast!"

Your logic here is wayyyyy out of left field sorry to say.

I can talk about DD and Bargs separately, the same way I can talk about apples and oranges separately

Well, I have no idea what Kill Zone or Call of Duty are. I assume video games. There's obviously a bit of a generational gap between us. But my point is that you said that DeRozan has been a disappointment because of, among other things, his lack of defense. WHat is hypocritical is that you would never say the same thing about Bargnani. It's like me criticizing someone for being stubborn. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The pot calling the kettle black. There are a lot of saying but they all mean the same thing.

And I don't see your point about apples and oranges or BMWs or Audis. Both Bargnani and DeRozan are basketball players and both are supposed to play defense. Neither one plays it well, but DeRozan does appear to put more effort into it and has only played in the NBA for two years. Besides, perimeter players will get beat. The NBA is designed to allow that. That's why they took out the handchecking rule. The main problem, though, is with team defense. Bargnani, as a front court player, is the last line of defense, and when he's a very poor team defender, it's a killer. Like it or not, a poor defensive perimeter player is far easier to hide than a poor defensive frontcourt player. Is it unfair? Sure, but that's the way basketball is. That's why you need your front court players to be, at least, decent defenders. Of course, if DeRozan is still a poor defender in a couple of years, I'll want him traded.

You may think I'm picking on Bargnani. I'm not. I'm picking on anyone who I feel is a major weak link that will prevent this team from achieving what I hope it does. Like it or not, Bargnani's inability to rebound or defend makes him a major weak link, no matter what he does on offense. That's basketball. You can complain all you want about Amir's fouling or so-called turnovers, but when he's on the floor, he consistently has a positive effect on the team. The reason is because he does more than one thing well. He's a good defender and rebounder, who is active, hustles and scores extremely efficiently. Bargnani is a very good scorer, but if he's not scoring, there is really nothing he does well that makes him valuable to the team. The fact that Bargnani has scored less than 20 ppg in a quarter of the games, tells me there are far too many games when Bargnani isn't scoring enough, and since he doesn't bring anything else to the table, he's simply a liability.

[Apollo]

Pretty much. I didn't coin it or anything though.

[DunkinDerozan]

I've watched all but two Raptor games all year. Every single minute of those games. And there's a very good reason that Bargnani is usually asked to defend the weaker offensive player. It's not because he's versatile or can defend multiple positions. It's because he has trouble guarding ANY position. When Amir Johnson and Ed Davis, who are slight for PFs, are asked to defend centers because the Raptor center can't, you know there's a problem. And there's a very good reason that Bargnani is consistently removed on defensive possessions at the end of close games. It's not because he's a good defender.

If you’ve watched every single game like you claim you’d have known that most nights he guards the other team’s strongest offensive players. Last night he was playing injured so they didn’t want him banging as much hence the switch. Also was a good chance for Ed and Amir to showcase themselves against quality big men. (With not such successful results)

Bargnani is a below average man to man defender who, against certain type of opponents, can play well. The type of player he usually does okay against are back to the basket type players who don't move well East-West. Bargnani's biggest strength on defense is his length and the fact that he basically doesn't react well. That means he doesn't fall for fakes, so a player who uses a lot of fakes in the post has trouble. Of course, Bargnani too often gives up deep position, so that hurts him. As does the fact that he has trouble defending faceup players who can put the ball on the floor.

I disagree. He’s a good man to man defender it’s his help defense that is the problem. You are contradicting yourself. Players who don’t move well east west are typically centers. Last night he was guarding a quicker pf/sf and did relatively well holding a player to 2/7 shooting. Face up players he usually guards are center’s/pf's who don’t move well east to west so basically he shouldn’t have a problem guarding those players according to your logic.

I don't pay attention to the box scores of opponents. I go by what I see in games. I don't know if I'm seeing more than you, but the fact that advance stats, that chart who a player was actually defending, pretty much backs me position up.

If you go by what you see in games your opinions should be different than what you write.

As for help defense, I don't think there can be any debate that Bargnani is awful. Davis and Amir, while slight, at least know when and where to rotate, how to hedge on the pick and roll and protect the lane.

Sure you can have this point. Help defense is a team output he’s only a small fraction of the problem.

And I don't go on one game. Drawing results from a single game is silly. You need to look at a much bigger pool. And when you look at he entire season, Bargnani is a poor defender. And, quite frankly, I really don't understand how you can argue otherwise. At this point, it seems to be a well understood fact.

There have been numerous games such as this one, I never really bothered evaluating it in such detail but since it’s a hot topic I thought id measure his defense more closely. Bargnani is not a poor defender he is just part of a bad defensive system.

[Tim W.]

If you’ve watched every single game like you claim you’d have known that most nights he guards the other team’s strongest offensive players. Last night he was playing injured so they didn’t want him banging as much hence the switch. Also was a good chance for Ed and Amir to showcase themselves against quality big men. (With not such successful results)

Excuse me? That is absolutely and positively not true. Bargnani has consistently defended the weaker offensive front court player, when Reggie was starting with him and when Amir was starting with him. Even the games when Ed Davis started, he defended the weaker front court player. I commented about how this was a bad idea in the games in London because, while Amir and Davis are better defenders, Lopez was simply too strong for them. Sorry, but you are completely wrong on this one.

I disagree. He’s a good man to man defender it’s his help defense that is the problem. You are contradicting yourself. Players who don’t move well east west are typically centers. Last night he was guarding a quicker pf/sf and did relatively well holding a player to 2/7 shooting. Face up players he usually guards are center’s/pf's who don’t move well east to west so basically he shouldn’t have a problem guarding those players according to your logic.

How am I contradicting myself? I've consistently said that Bargnani does better at defending the center position. And I wish people would stop bringing up one game to try and prove a point. Bargnani fans will always bring up Bargnani's game against TIm DUncan as an example of why he's a good man to man defender. Unfortunately when you look at all the games, Bargnani is not a good defender. And the stats completely back up my opinion. He's not a horrible man-to-man defender, but he's still below average.

If you go by what you see in games your opinions should be different than what you write.

Why? Because my opinions contradict yours?

Sure you can have this point. Help defense is a team output he’s only a small fraction of the problem.

Well, I'd completely disagree he's a small fraction of the problem. He's a big man that can't play help defense. That basically cripples your team defense. I'm not saying the defense would be good without him, not with the personnel the Raptors have, but it most definitely improves without him. And, again, the stats back me up on this.

There have been numerous games such as this one, I never really bothered evaluating it in such detail but since it’s a hot topic I thought id measure his defense more closely. Bargnani is not a poor defender he is just part of a bad defensive system.

Well, I don't know what you're seeing, or whether you even know what to look for, but if you think what Bargnani playing is not bad defense, then we have very different opinions about what is and what is not acceptable defense. If you know what to look for, you can easily tell the difference between what is bad defense and what is simply a bad defensive system. An example is Bosh last year. Several people bashed Bosh for his defense last season, and I was one of the few who said he was actually not a bad defender. Not a good one, but not a bad one. He's always had decent instincts. Effort and laziness were the biggest problems with him, and with Miami his defense looks miraculously better.

Bargnani has bad defensive instincts. Plain and simple. No system is going to make him a decent defender. You stick him on the Spurs and his instincts will still be bad. Besides, the flaw in this argument is that neither Amir nor Davis look like bad defenders, despite playing in the exact same system. If it was the system or the poor perimeter defenders or the coaching or anything else that made Bargnani appear to be a bad defender, then both Amir and Davis would also appear to be bad defenders. Neither of them are. Their biggest problem is that they both need to add some strength. That's easily rectifiable. What isn't is changing a players instincts.

[Multipaul]

dunkin has a great point, our defensive 'scheme' is crap. Tim, that plays into ur point about boshs 'average' d last year, and his 'better' d this year. I think if KING Bargs played for another team with a better defensive strategy, his d would elevate too. Triano's help d system is terrible. Next year we will have a better coach, then Tim will see.
Ps Tim,there is no doubt u love da raps

[Tim W.]

dunkin has a great point, our defensive 'scheme' is crap. Tim, that plays into ur point about boshs 'average' d last year, and his 'better' d this year. I think if KING Bargs played for another team with a better defensive strategy, his d would elevate too. Triano's help d system is terrible. Next year we will have a better coach, then Tim will see.
Ps Tim,there is no doubt u love da raps

You may have missed my point, though. My point was that I never thought Bosh was a poor defensive player, because I could see he had decent instincts. I simply don't see that with Bargnani. I've literally seen nothing from Bargnani that leads me to believe he has any hope of becoming even a decent defender.

And you might be careful what you wish for. A "better coach" probably won't put up with Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding and sit him on the bench. You'll be longing for Sam Mitchell.

[DunkinDerozan]

Excuse me? That is absolutely and positively not true. Bargnani has consistently defended the weaker offensive front court player, when Reggie was starting with him and when Amir was starting with him. Even the games when Ed Davis started, he defended the weaker front court player. I commented about how this was a bad idea in the games in London because, while Amir and Davis are better defenders, Lopez was simply too strong for them. Sorry, but you are completely wrong on this one.

Reggie’s been injured basically all year. Andrea often guards the teams biggest player who often times happen to be the other teams most skilled big man. You said it yourself Ed and Amir are just to slender to guard other teams biggest and best players.

How am I contradicting myself? I've consistently said that Bargnani does better at defending the center position. And I wish people would stop bringing up one game to try and prove a point. Bargnani fans will always bring up Bargnani's game against TIm DUncan as an example of why he's a good man to man defender. Unfortunately when you look at all the games, Bargnani is not a good defender. And the stats completely back up my opinion. He's not a horrible man-to-man defender, but he's still below average.

Well that’s not really saying much since he’s been guarding centers all year because nobody else on this team is capable of guarding a center. But as you saw last night if they played him on the opposing teams less physical/skilled big he can more than shut them down. Once again it is simple little adjustments such as those which give all those who worry there is no hope for Bargnani on the defensive end some light at the end of the tunnel.

Well, I'd completely disagree he's a small fraction of the problem. He's a big man that can't play help defense. That basically cripples your team defense. I'm not saying the defense would be good without him, not with the personnel the Raptors have, but it most definitely improves without him. And, again, the stats back me up on this.

Oh so you finally admit it might not just be his fault but possibly the teams fault. If we had a defensive anchor at center Bargnani would be more than capable to hold his own against the opposing teams less skilled big men. I don’t know what stats you use to back up your position.

Well, I don't know what you're seeing, or whether you even know what to look for, but if you think what Bargnani playing is not bad defense, then we have very different opinions about what is and what is not acceptable defense. If you know what to look for, you can easily tell the difference between what is bad defense and what is simply a bad defensive system. An example is Bosh last year. Several people bashed Bosh for his defense last season, and I was one of the few who said he was actually not a bad defender. Not a good one, but not a bad one. He's always had decent instincts. Effort and laziness were the biggest problems with him, and with Miami his defense looks miraculously better.

Wow sounds like the tides have turned. Several people are bashing Bargnani’s defense yet I am one of the few who believe there is hope with better personnel and an improved defensive system. Hopefully next year Bargnani will pull a Bosh.

Further contradicting yourself that effort and laziness are not fixable problems.

Bargnani has bad defensive instincts. Plain and simple. No system is going to make him a decent defender. You stick him on the Spurs and his instincts will still be bad. Besides, the flaw in this argument is that neither Amir nor Davis look like bad defenders, despite playing in the exact same system. If it was the system or the poor perimeter defenders or the coaching or anything else that made Bargnani appear to be a bad defender, then both Amir and Davis would also appear to be bad defenders. Neither of them are. Their biggest problem is that they both need to add some strength. That's easily rectifiable. What isn't is changing a players instincts.

How are his instincts bad? Is he foul prone? Does bite on pump fakes? Does he not take charges? Does he let his man score on him with ease?
Wow that’s a bold statement to make. Even players such as Matt Bonner have been able to thrive under the Spurs system.
Ed and Amir often guard the less skilled big men as a result their flaws aren’t as exposed or as obvious.

[DunkinDerozan]

dunkin has a great point, our defensive 'scheme' is crap. Tim, that plays into ur point about boshs 'average' d last year, and his 'better' d this year. I think if KING Bargs played for another team with a better defensive strategy, his d would elevate too. Triano's help d system is terrible. Next year we will have a better coach, then Tim will see.
Ps Tim,there is no doubt u love da raps

kings bargs nsn bwo!!!

[Balls of Steel]

Holy cow, 57,088 posts in this thread! Let me add one more. Yes, 57,089. King Bargs is Tupac! Yay points!

[Tim W.]

Reggie’s been injured basically all year. Andrea often guards the teams biggest player who often times happen to be the other teams most skilled big man. You said it yourself Ed and Amir are just to slender to guard other teams biggest and best players.

As I said in my comment, Bargnani has consistently defended the less skilled offensive front court player, no matter what position they played. He did this even when Amir or Davis had to defend bigger, stronger centers, which I would often disagree with (as I said). Go back over the tapes and see. It's something I commented on in my blog at one point.

Well that’s not really saying much since he’s been guarding centers all year because nobody else on this team is capable of guarding a center. But as you saw last night if they played him on the opposing teams less physical/skilled big he can more than shut them down. Once again it is simple little adjustments such as those which give all those who worry there is no hope for Bargnani on the defensive end some light at the end of the tunnel.

No, he HASN"T been guarding centers all year. In fact, he's probably defended PFs more this season than centers. Again, I discussed it in my blog a couple of times. Obviously it's something I saw. Why on earth didn't you? If you haven't even noticed who Bargnani has been defending, for most of the season, I'm not surprised you've missed his poor defense.

Oh so you finally admit it might not just be his fault but possibly the teams fault. If we had a defensive anchor at center Bargnani would be more than capable to hold his own against the opposing teams less skilled big men. I don’t know what stats you use to back up your position.

I've never once said it's been all Bargnani's fault and consistently said that the team still wouldn't be a good defensive team without him. Where do you get this "finally admit it"? My message has been consistent the entire time. Bargnani is a major reason, but not the only one, why the Raptors are such a bad team. I've also discussed the fallacy of "hiding" a bad front court defender by putting him beside a good defensive center. It doesn't work. You can mask a player's defensive shortcomings temporarily, but good teams will always find ways to attack that player, especially in the playoffs. And that has killed the chances of many a contender. Bargnani's offense is simply not good enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings.

As for the stats, just check out just about any advanced stat. Just about every one says that Bargnani is a bad defender.

Wow sounds like the tides have turned. Several people are bashing Bargnani’s defense yet I am one of the few who believe there is hope with better personnel and an improved defensive system. Hopefully next year Bargnani will pull a Bosh.

Further contradicting yourself that effort and laziness are not fixable problems.

"Several people are bashing Bargnani's defense"? Try 99.99% of the basketball world. You'd have a hell of a time finding a basketball mind that would say that Bargnani isn't a bad defender. Even Jay Triano takes the guy who on defensive possessions in close games. And I don't think he's got a bigger defender than Triano.

And exactly how am I contradicting myself? Bargnani's problem go WAY beyond effort and laziness.

How are his instincts bad? Is he foul prone? Does bite on pump fakes? Does he not take charges? Does he let his man score on him with ease?
Wow that’s a bold statement to make. Even players such as Matt Bonner have been able to thrive under the Spurs system.
Ed and Amir often guard the less skilled big men as a result their flaws aren’t as exposed or as obvious.

How are Bargnani's instincts bad? Just watch the guy. He doesn't seem to have a clue, half the time, of what he should be doing, where he should be going and when he should be doing it, on the defensive end. He'll literally turn his back to the ball, at times, something I simply can't believe a 5 year NBA pro would do. You're apparently looking at the obvious things, but this goes well beyond easy, fixable stuff. If he simply did things like foul too much or bite on pump fakes, then I would have some hope. But Bargnani often reminds me of one of those guys in a pickup game that comes on and has obviously barely played before. Yes, it's an exaggeration, but get my point. Bargnani has a very low basketball IQ on the defensive end.

As for Matt Bonner, I don't know why you'd bring him up. He was always a decent defender, and it seemed pretty obvious to me, even when he was a Raptor. It's not as if he was a bad defender, went to the Spurs and suddenly became a good one. I always liked him, and thought he would make a decent bench player on a good team. I don't think that for guys who are bad defenders.

And I'm sorry, but if you've been watching the entire season and you haven't noticed that Bargnani has usually been defending the lesser front court player, then you've got a lot bigger things to worry about that me criticizing him.

[DunkinDerozan]

As I said in my comment, Bargnani has consistently defended the less skilled offensive front court player, no matter what position they played. He did this even when Amir or Davis had to defend bigger, stronger centers, which I would often disagree with (as I said). Go back over the tapes and see. It's something I commented on in my blog at one point.



No, he HASN"T been guarding centers all year. In fact, he's probably defended PFs more this season than centers. Again, I discussed it in my blog a couple of times. Obviously it's something I saw. Why on earth didn't you? If you haven't even noticed who Bargnani has been defending, for most of the season, I'm not surprised you've missed his poor defense.



I've never once said it's been all Bargnani's fault and consistently said that the team still wouldn't be a good defensive team without him. Where do you get this "finally admit it"? My message has been consistent the entire time. Bargnani is a major reason, but not the only one, why the Raptors are such a bad team. I've also discussed the fallacy of "hiding" a bad front court defender by putting him beside a good defensive center. It doesn't work. You can mask a player's defensive shortcomings temporarily, but good teams will always find ways to attack that player, especially in the playoffs. And that has killed the chances of many a contender. Bargnani's offense is simply not good enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings.

As for the stats, just check out just about any advanced stat. Just about every one says that Bargnani is a bad defender.



"Several people are bashing Bargnani's defense"? Try 99.99% of the basketball world. You'd have a hell of a time finding a basketball mind that would say that Bargnani isn't a bad defender. Even Jay Triano takes the guy who on defensive possessions in close games. And I don't think he's got a bigger defender than Triano.

And exactly how am I contradicting myself? Bargnani's problem go WAY beyond effort and laziness.



How are Bargnani's instincts bad? Just watch the guy. He doesn't seem to have a clue, half the time, of what he should be doing, where he should be going and when he should be doing it, on the defensive end. He'll literally turn his back to the ball, at times, something I simply can't believe a 5 year NBA pro would do. You're apparently looking at the obvious things, but this goes well beyond easy, fixable stuff. If he simply did things like foul too much or bite on pump fakes, then I would have some hope. But Bargnani often reminds me of one of those guys in a pickup game that comes on and has obviously barely played before. Yes, it's an exaggeration, but get my point. Bargnani has a very low basketball IQ on the defensive end.

As for Matt Bonner, I don't know why you'd bring him up. He was always a decent defender, and it seemed pretty obvious to me, even when he was a Raptor. It's not as if he was a bad defender, went to the Spurs and suddenly became a good one. I always liked him, and thought he would make a decent bench player on a good team. I don't think that for guys who are bad defenders.

And I'm sorry, but if you've been watching the entire season and you haven't noticed that Bargnani has usually been defending the lesser front court player, then you've got a lot bigger things to worry about that me criticizing him.

there's not point to argue with you until you get your facts strait. It's clear to anyone who has watched the Raptors this year that he's had to defend the likes of lopez,boozer, howard, Bogut, Hibbert, etc etcc which is why it was extremly obvious that something was totally different in the milwaukee game. The fact that Bargnani wasn't down low banging with Bogut was really suprising. If he had been defending the lesser players like you claim all year long it wouldn't be so shocking to see Barngnai guarding a player such as luke mamute. I also felt really bad for Amir I mean he seemed exhausted after the first 5 minutes of the game banging with Bogut.

[Tim W.]

there's not point to argue with you until you get your facts strait. It's clear to anyone who has watched the Raptors this year that he's had to defend the likes of lopez,boozer, howard, Bogut, Hibbert, etc etcc which is why it was extremly obvious that something was totally different in the milwaukee game. The fact that Bargnani wasn't down low banging with Bogut was really suprising. If he had been defending the lesser players like you claim all year long it wouldn't be so shocking to see Barngnai guarding a player such as luke mamute. I also felt really bad for Amir I mean he seemed exhausted after the first 5 minutes of the game banging with Bogut.

Amir and Davis defended Lopezfor the most part, in all three games. Bargnani did defend him for a large portion of the first game, but in the games in London, he defended him very little.

Bargnani missed the first game against Chicago, so obviously he couldn't have defended him in that one. In the second game, Bargnani spent the majority of his time on Kurt Thomas and Taj Gibson. In the third game, which was Noah's first game back from injury, Bargnani was defending him for the majority of the game, during which Jack Armstrong, I believe, commented several times that Bargnani needs to do a better job of boxing him out. Amir started on Boozer, but Bargnani moved to him later with Triano hoping that Bargnani's size would hinder him more than Amir.

Evans defended Howard for the majority of the first game they played against them, and in the second game against them Joey Dorsey actually started in place of Amir (Reggie was hurt), in large part because Triano felt Dorsey was strong enough to defend Howard.

I think it's pretty clear I remember these games and who defended who. And I can do that with majority of the games I've seen this year. Not all, but most of them. There's a reason I didn't take notes in most of my classes in University. I didn't need to. My memory is pretty damn good. Bargnani certainly hasn't always defended the less skilled front court player, but the majority of the time, he has.

[heinz57]

Holy cow, 57,088 posts in this thread! Let me add one more. Yes, 57,089. King Bargs is Tupac! Yay points!

The raps really need to start a "Bargs is Tupac" ad campaign... its so nonsensical, yet so awesome.

[bloodyhandedgod]

Is there racism in here? Cause we had some elsewhere and now I can't find it.

[Maleko]

The raps really need to start a "Bargs is Tupac" ad campaign... its so nonsensical, yet so awesome.

Man your posts crack me up.

[Multipaul]

The raps really need to start a "Bargs is Tupac" ad campaign... its so nonsensical, yet so awesome.

I want royalties on that btw

Bargs is Tupac
King Bargs
BWO4LIFE

and from Dunkin

NSN

[heinz57]

imagine walking up to the ACC for a game.. and on the big screen outside, across from real sports.. they have a big pic of bargs head superimposed on tupac's body.

im not even joking... i'd put up with 5 years of last place in the league if the franchise had the balls to pull off that level of comedy gold on a nightly basis.

[Multipaul]

imagine walking up to the ACC for a game.. and on the big screen outside, across from real sports.. they have a big pic of bargs head superimposed on tupac's body.

im not even joking... i'd put up with 5 years of last place in the league if the franchise had the balls to pull off that level of comedy gold on a nightly basis.

Royalties biotches, thats my idea

http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...ighlight=tupac

[The Rawth]

As for Bargnani, I've said time and time again that I have a minimum standard for ANY basketball player. Bargnani doesn't meet that standard. .

So you saying that Bargnani doesnt even meet your minimum standard? thats just sad.

[raptorsking]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzbb3rwU8AA

bargnani use to be the man....