View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4581
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Default Chisholm: It's Time For The Raptors To Trade Bargnani

    (If ye mods feel ye thread belongs in the Everything White Swan thread, go ahead and merge it.)

    http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=362496
    Quote Tim Chisholm wrote:
    First things first: it was not a mistake to draft Andrea Bargnani number one overall in 2006. In a weak draft where twelve first-round picks aren't even in the NBA anymore, to come away with a seven-footer that is capable of dropping twenty-point games with ease, they did alright. Is Bargnani the best player from his draft? No, he is not. However, in a lottery loaded with busts like Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams, Patrick O'Bryant, Saer Sene and Hilton Armstrong, to come away with not only a productive player but a legit 20 ppg scorer is commendable.

    Now, all that said, it's time to trade Andrea Bargnani.

    This year was a huge 'prove it' year for the sweet-shooting Italian, and while he proved that increased touches will deliver an increased scoring average, he failed in several other areas that practically necessitate his relocation.

    The biggest failure this year was, and has been for a while, his inability to develop areas of his game that don't have to do with his scoring. This year he averaged a career-low in rebound rate and rebounding per 36 minutes, and his 5.2 rpg ranked him 29th amongst centers this season, behind Channing Frye, Kwame Brown and the 6-foot-6 Chuck Hayes. His defense was no better, either, as the Raptors let up 5.2 points more per 100 possessions when he's on the court, opposing teams shoot 2.6% better in FG% when he's on the floor and this year was his worst for shot blocking in his entire career.

    Take a second to consider all of that. What is basically being illustrated is that not only did Bargnani not improve his pathetic rebounding and defense, but in some areas he actually REGRESSED from already embarrassingly low standards. Ever since training camp, head coach Jay Triano has been lamenting Bargnani's inability to improve as a help defender and his tendency to let his field goal percentage affect his defensive effort, but he - like Sam Mitchell before him - seems powerless to alter Bargnani's mindset. He's probably got more in common with J.R. Smith than Dirk Nowitzki at this point in his career and that is especially disappointing considering his circumstances this year.

    This year Bargnani was supposed to emerge as one of the future cornerstones of this franchise, unburdened from having to play in Chris Bosh's shadow. He was supposed to gain a newfound respect for the less glamourous areas of the job because the Raptors were going to feature him more and they hoped such visibility would coax some self-respect out of him. Instead, it only served to jack-up his field goal attempts at the expense of his rebounding and shot blocking stats. Perhaps if he were a lights-out shooter the team would feel compelled to work around his shortcomings, but the fact is he's one of the least efficient 20 ppg in the NBA this season, with only Russell Westbrook having a FG% below Bargnani amongst that group, but at least Westbrook gets to the line 7.7 times per game (Bargnani only gets there 5.3).

    There is also the fact that his offense is coming increasingly from isolation situations, meaning that he's finding his shot less and less within the flow of the team's offense. Only 63.7% of his shots were assisted this season, compared to 75%+ in each of his first four years. His insistence on going one-on-one has led to a dramatic increase in shots from the 16-23 foot range (the dreaded 'long two'), which is basically the laziest shot he could take. So not only does the team's offense need to basically stop to allow him his forays with the ball, but he 'rewards' the team by taking bad shots. To compound matters, Bargnani is also the second-worst 20 ppg scorer in the league this year at using the threat of his scoring to set-up his teammates. His assist percentage ranks behind every 20 ppg this year save one, Dwight Howard, and Howard can be excused since he's a 60% shooter and is typically at the end of most passing cycles.

    All of this, though, is just cold data. There will be those who say his 21.4 ppg trumps all and that his versatility as a scorer is too valuable to give away. Whatever. There is a more important side to this story that goes deeper than his numbers; fans don't like him.

    To sit at games this season is to hear a barrage of insults hurled at Bargnani's indifferent play. To read the excellent blog community discuss it, they can't wait for the day when Bargnani is in a different uniform. It's not surprising really, considering who Raptor fans have attached themselves to in the team's past.

    Now, a General Manager should never blindly follow the whims of his fan base when it comes to trading and acquiring players, but there is something to be said for the team's highest-paid player and most visible personality in their offense being someone that the fans actually want to see. Or, put more bluntly, it should be someone the fans actually want to PAY to see. Raptor fans have a history of dedicating their allegiances to workers, to guys like Jerome Williams, Alvin Williams and Reggie Evans. They adore guys that leave it all out on the floor, who sacrifice their bodies to do the dirty work like Amir Johnson and Jorge Garbajosa. Sure, they're happy to get behind supremely talented players like Vince Carter, but as soon as they stop working to the best of their abilities, Toronto fans voice their displeasure. Bargnani has become something of the poster child for a player refusing to work to the best of their abilities, so why should fans keep paying to sand him and his indifferent play continue to be the most visible part of every Raptors game?

    Bryan Colangelo and co. have gone away from the Bargnani model in recent years. They team has worked over the last two seasons to acquire young, athletic and energetic players to fill out their roster, and the fans seem encouraged by their presence. Having DeMar DeRozan, Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, James Johnson and Jerryd Bayless on the roster seems to have re-ignited the fan base and made them cautiously optimistic about the future, at least those that pop-up in my Twitter timeline. Management seems focused on building a team out of players who want to muck it up in the paint, who want to play through injuries, who want to put in the work to improve their game. If management is truly committed to going in this direction, and they should be because it's actually enjoyable to watch, then they must commit fully by divesting themselves of Andrea Bargnani. A seven-foot, 20 ppg former number-one overall pick will always have a market for his services - always - and it's now time for Toronto to avail themselves of that market before the next training camp convenes.

  2. #4582
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Still won't work. Bargnani is very capable of playing passable or even good defense and rebounding. He's just lazy. Or thinks that because he's really a PF he shouldn't be forced to do those things.

  3. #4583
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    If we can trade him to one of Kanter/Valanucunias/Montiejunas and a first rounder we should trade him for sure. BC should make the mistake of forcing the issue and not getting enough back for him.

  4. #4584
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Would it be possible to trade him for a futur draft pick, just like Denver did with Camby a couple years ago? Personally, I'd do that and sign Marc Gasol to a maximum contract. If they can draft Derrick Williams, here's a look at a potential roster for next year:

    C: Marc Gasol/Alexis Ajinša/Solomon Alabi
    PF: Ed Davis/Amir Johnson/Dwayne Jones
    SF: Derrick Williams/James Johnson/Linas Kleiza
    SG: DeMar DeRozan/Leandro Barbosa/Anthony Parker
    PG: Jerryd Bayless/Jose Calderon/Royal Ivey

  5. #4585
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Would it be possible to trade him for a futur draft pick, just like Denver did with Camby a couple years ago? Personally, I'd do that and sign Marc Gasol to a maximum contract. If they can draft Derrick Williams, here's a look at a potential roster for next year:

    C: Marc Gasol/Alexis Ajinša/Solomon Alabi
    PF: Ed Davis/Amir Johnson/Dwayne Jones
    SF: Derrick Williams/James Johnson/Linas Kleiza
    SG: DeMar DeRozan/Leandro Barbosa/Anthony Parker
    PG: Jerryd Bayless/Jose Calderon/Royal Ivey
    Marc Gasol to a max contract? WTF???????????????????????

  6. #4586
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Chisolm is a bit late to the party. Many on RR has been advocating this for at least 6 mos. now.

  7. #4587
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Marc Gasol to a max contract? WTF???????????????????????
    The poster is Gasol's agent.

  8. #4588
    Raptors Republic Rookie HuskyRaptor's Avatar
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    Bargnani must go!!!!!!!!! bring in valanciunas or marc gasol

  9. #4589
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    think we could ge varejao?

  10. #4590
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    Quote dballa21 wrote: View Post
    If we can trade him to one of Kanter/Valanucunias/Montiejunas and a first rounder we should trade him for sure. BC should make the mistake of forcing the issue and not getting enough back for him.
    You mean the same guy who has been compared to Bargnani and who has trouble rebounding and defending? Is that a joke? I'm all over the other two but not Motiejunas. Not in a million years.
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  11. #4591
    Raptors Republic Rookie HuskyRaptor's Avatar
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    what team do you think would be most interested in Bargnani's services???

  12. #4592
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    kings

  13. #4593
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    Kings, Hornets, Bucks, Magic, Spurs, Warriors, Nets, Suns, Clippers...a lot of teams. What's more concering is what they would actually offer for him. He's the type of player that can start a bidding war though.

  14. #4594
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    It's got to be hard to be a Bargnani fan about now. Real hard.
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  15. #4595
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Kings, Hornets, Bucks, Magic, Spurs, Warriors, Nets, Suns, Clippers...a lot of teams. What's more concering is what they would actually offer for him. He's the type of player that can start a bidding war though.
    I'd add the T-Wolves and Knicks but take out the Spurs. The Spurs don't take chances on guys like Bargnani who don't play defense or rebound. Never have. Defense is too much of a foundation of the team, hence their success.
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  16. #4596
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    I'd say most likely Kings, T-Wolves, Hornets, Warriors, Nets, or Clippers...Suns have Gortat, Magic probably won't want him, Bucks already have Bogut.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Portland might be interested in him, if they decide not to re-sign Greg Oden.

  17. #4597
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    I could see the Spurs throwing a really, really, really low ball offer for Bargnani.

    Also the whole but-he-might-flourish-on-another-team-so-we-should-keep-him argument is a horrible reason for keeping a player.

  18. #4598
    Raptors Republic Rookie HuskyRaptor's Avatar
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    Tiago Splitter would be awesome on this team
    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    I could see the Spurs throwing a really, really, really low ball offer for Bargnani.

    Also the whole but-he-might-flourish-on-another-team-so-we-should-keep-him argument is a horrible reason for keeping a player.

  19. #4599
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    From the Amir thread...

    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The thing is, Bargnani is no Dirk Nowitzki, so already you're a poor copy of a plan that has actually had some mixed results. While Dallas has been to the Finals and had a lot of success, they've also been one of the most underachieving teams in the playoffs in the last ten years. 4 out of the last 7 years, despite winning an average of 57 games a year, Dallas has lost in the first round. That's the problem with teams that are not great defensively. They do great in the regular season but too often underachieve in the playoffs.

    Again, I really don't see the point in jumping through hoops to try and make Bargnani work because he's simply not that good. If he was a perennial All-Star, like Dirk or Chris Bosh, I can see trying to make it work. But Bargnani isn't even an All-Star. Why go to so much trouble. Just trade the guy and let someone else deal with the problem.
    This should really be posted on another forum probably, but im going to ask you in what way do you think we can trade him that is going to improve the team in a way, that using our financial flexibility and organic growth (and pick) cant.

    You're right Dallas hasnt won a championship ... but I think that if we were able to achieve the success that they have had, we would be on the right track.

    I agree defense wins championships, but sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
    I think trading Bargnani has two effects. The first is starting to change the atmosphere of the team. Much like when Colangelo came in and brought in guys who were used to winning, like Anthony Parker, Garbajosa and Nesterovic, trading Bargnani will allow the team to turn the page on their horrible defensive reputation. He's not the sole reason, but ridding him of the team is a major step in the right direction.

    Secondly, you hopefully get either a young prospect of hopefully lottery pick in return. The financial flexibility is probably the last thing they need to worry about since there's little they can do with it, anyway.

    And while Dallas is certainly a successful team, are they really team you want to model yourself after? Especially since your "Dirk" is a very pale imitation of him.

    The saying the best defense is a good offense has nothing to do with basketball. The best defense is actually a good defense. Always has been and probably always will be. Offensive teams have historically been far better in the regular season than in the playoffs. Defense has always been the foundation of Championship teams. Right through the ages. I'm all for trying new things, but there's a difference between being innovative and ignoring history and common sense.
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  20. #4600
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    Quote HuskyRaptor wrote: View Post
    Tiago Splitter would be awesome on this team
    I think the Spurs would probably rather keep Splitter.
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