Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[ezz_bee]

Perhaps, I'm giving Barg's too much credit but I do think that some of his "regression" is due to his role as alpha, which he was ill suited and ill prepared for. I also am not sure how useful he is as a starter, but there may ways to utilize him with smaller numbers that gives better returns. I do think that in certain situations you could change games by playing him at the 3 spot. I don't think he could play full time there OR be a starter there only that in certain situations it could result in a net gain for the team, for a few key possessions/half a quarter or so and possibly win . The rest of the time play him as your backup center or as back power forward along side your starting center. If we want to go DEEP into the playoffs we need a good team NOT just good starters. We have to build a good bench along w/ a good starting unit. If barg's value is low because every expects him to be on the trading block then bring him back for another year with a different role.

[WhatWhat]

That doesn't really make things sound better lol.

[c_bcm]

its never been easy. But then again, I come to this site of my own volition.

[Tim W.]

I think that defensively the two most crucial positions that need to be solid for a team are PG and C. The point of attack, not allowing penetration and forcing the help defense to react, and then protecting the basket. A team like Orlando, everyone thought Hedo Turkoglu was a good defender, but it turns out he was only a good defender because Dwight Howard was the last line of defense, and he is the best defensive player in the league. So if we can address those two issues the raptors can have their defense improved.

As for changing the identity or atmosphere of the team, I think trading Calderon who had a good season statistically and may have decent trade value atm would be better, we have bayless to replace him who is definately a better defender. If we can address the C position and fill that hole with a solid, imposing, shot blocking big, if we have sorted out our PG problem we can definately be a better defensive team and still keep Bargnani.

Now if trading Bargnani means that we can address some of these issues than im all for it, but if these issues can be addressed through free agency which we have tons of cap room for, and this season happens to be a good offseason for C's (Nene, Chandler, Gasol all free agents) then their is no need to trade him.

If however we cannot get a solid C, and I dont mean draft one, Im not in the camp of waiting 2-3 years to make the playoffs, a team needs a healthy balance between veterans and young guns, I want an experienced veteran C if that cant be obtained through free agency, then trading Bargnani should be our only option. If that isnt the case however I make the argument that we keep him, use our financial flexibility to address our issues, and keep a very dynamic scorer who I think is signed to a reasonable contract.

I don't completely agree. A good defensive center is important, but I think an entire defensive front court is just as important. In the NBA, the center can't just stand in front of the basket the entire game. Sometimes it's going to be the Center that's going to have to protect the basket, other times it's going to have to be the PF. You need your entire Frontcourt to be able to defend the basket or else you'll struggle defensively.

As for Turkoglu, no one thought he was a good defensive player in Orlando, and the thing is he wasn't bad in Toronto. He wasn't great by any means, but He certainly wasn't one of the worst offenders defensively. Not by a long shot. But I never saw Turkoglu's defense much different from Orlando to Toronto to Phoenix. I don't know why anyone else did, quite frankly.

Now the issue of the PG being one of the most important positions defensively, history says differently. Neither Derek Fisher or Tony Parker or Jason Williams or BJ Armstrong or John Paxson or Isiah Thomas or Magic Johnson were strong defensive players, yet they all have Championship rings as starting PGs. What each player had behind him, though, was a very strong team defense. In today's NBA, you're not going to stop penetration one on one. It's going to happen even if you've got Rajon Rondo as your PG. Calderon was not nearly as bad defensively as some seemed to think. He wasn't good by any means, but this year we saw a huge improvement in his defense so much so that I never though it was much of a concern.

The thing about Calderon is that he was actually one of the few players on the team that had a consistent positive effect while he was on the court. Far more than Bargnani did and the numbers easily back me up on this. He's not your ideal PG because he's not great at getting to the basket, but I really don't understand the desperate need to replace him immediately. If the Raptors get someone like Kyrie Irving, then fine, but if they don't then there won't be any harm in having him start again next year. He's one of the few Raptors I can see starting on a contender.

[Tim W.]

Perhaps, I'm giving Barg's too much credit but I do think that some of his "regression" is due to his role as alpha, which he was ill suited and ill prepared for. I also am not sure how useful he is as a starter, but there may ways to utilize him with smaller numbers that gives better returns. I do think that in certain situations you could change games by playing him at the 3 spot. I don't think he could play full time there OR be a starter there only that in certain situations it could result in a net gain for the team, for a few key possessions/half a quarter or so and possibly win . The rest of the time play him as your backup center or as back power forward along side your starting center. If we want to go DEEP into the playoffs we need a good team NOT just good starters. We have to build a good bench along w/ a good starting unit. If barg's value is low because every expects him to be on the trading block then bring him back for another year with a different role.

You really want a situational bench player to be making what he is (and what he WILL be making)?

[Bendit]

Perhaps, I'm giving Barg's too much credit but I do think that some of his "regression" is due to his role as alpha, which he was ill suited and ill prepared for. I also am not sure how useful he is as a starter, but there may ways to utilize him with smaller numbers that gives better returns. I do think that in certain situations you could change games by playing him at the 3 spot. I don't think he could play full time there OR be a starter there only that in certain situations it could result in a net gain for the team, for a few key possessions/half a quarter or so and possibly win . The rest of the time play him as your backup center or as back power forward along side your starting center. If we want to go DEEP into the playoffs we need a good team NOT just good starters. We have to build a good bench along w/ a good starting unit. If barg's value is low because every expects him to be on the trading block then bring him back for another year with a different role.

I believe the downside of attempting what you propose is too great in diluting his trade value. What if he balks at this or is terrible at it. BC would have to give him away.

[philwill]

I think if the Clips end up with a top five pick, and sign-and-trade DeAndre Jordan, I would take their pick and Jordan for Andrea Bargnani. Likewise, I would take JaVale McGee and a top pick for AB, but those are my only real (and potentially legitimate) targets.

Marc Gasol is nothing. Tyson Chandler is old and injury-proned. Emeka Okafor is a goliath contract for Ed Davis-esque numbers, and Sam Dalembert is a joke.

[YKR23]

how about we sign a centre (Nene)
draft a pg or wing (kyrie irving/derrick williams)
then depending on who we draft, we trade bargs + calderon for an all-star caliber wing or pg

[WhatWhat]

then depending on who we draft, we trade bargs + calderon for an all-star caliber wing or pg

Simply not feasible.

[Matt52]

I was hard on the "trade Bargnani" train and I think it is clear that he has demonstrated this season that he is not a number 1 guy on any team or a "franchise" player. However, he doesn't get paid like a franchise player, he gets paid like a 2-3 guy if not a 4-6 on a very good team. Whether you like it or not he was the focal point of our offense this year and was treated by opposing teams at our number one threat. I'm not trying to make excuses for him but one could argue that Barg's is not the problem. The fact that we have no all-stars, no franchise players, hardly any veteran presence (barbs, and reggie?) explains his drop in rebounding/shot blocking ect. Barg's was in over his head and being asked to do a job he wasn't qualified for, couldn't do, and didn't get paid for it. Barg's as the face of the franchise? You can find the answer to that question at failblog.com. But does that mean he has to go? Getting rid of Bargnani doesn't magically give us a franchise player, or an allstar or even veteran presence, unless some of those pieces are involved in that trade. Getting rid of Bargnani is not addition by subtraction. Although there are some problems with the efficiency of his production getting better players on this team would make a big difference, for the team as a whole not just Barg's. Let me be clear, I am NOT advocating that we build around bargnani. In fact it is the opposite, we need BETTER players or our younger players to continue to develop. Bargnani as a 3rd option could do just as well here as elsewhere. I don't buy the he "won't" be willing to come of the bench or that it would hurt his trade value. If we get good value for him then sure, pull the trigger, but his contract is very reasonable and as the 3rd or 4th option he could still be very effective. I know we are "mostly" and yes I mean that the majority of RR posters are on the trade bargs train. But it has to be for something BETTER. I don't think draft picks will do it. If I am the GM it's not just about getting the right players, but it's about getting the right players with the right contracts. Barg's might not be the right player but he is still better than a wrong player on a wrong contract OR even the right player at the wrong contract. Barg's gets paid to play, he'll play at the 3 position or at c or coming off the bench, because it is clear that "favouritism" from the front office/coaching staff has run out. We are still in rebuild mode and still have an excellent payroll (if you don't count peja as still being a raptor). Keeping good contracts keeps us flexible. Making a trade just to trade could leave us with a contract that limits us for going after the "final" piece to take us DEEP into the playoffs 2-4 years from now. We don't HAVE to trade Bargnani, we CAN and we SHOULD but only if get a player AND contract that give BETTER value.

You make some very good points - ones that I agree with and often advocated myself.

I guess where my change of heart has occurred is the realization that for the type of players needed to be obtained for success with Bargnani it would be much easier to create success with the proceeds he returned. His flaws, in my opinion, appear at this time to be too great to overcome in a timely manner (i.e. 1-2 seasons) given he is going to be 26 at the start of next season. I could be wrong here but barring a trade for Bogut (and he stays healthy) and Josh Smith, I don't see it happening.

[WhatWhat]

Now the issue of the PG being one of the most important positions defensively, history says differently. Neither Derek Fisher or Tony Parker or Jason Williams or BJ Armstrong or John Paxson or Isiah Thomas or Magic Johnson were strong defensive players, yet they all have Championship rings as starting PGs. What each player had behind him, though, was a very strong team defense. In today's NBA, you're not going to stop penetration one on one. It's going to happen even if you've got Rajon Rondo as your PG. Calderon was not nearly as bad defensively as some seemed to think. He wasn't good by any means, but this year we saw a huge improvement in his defense so much so that I never though it was much of a concern.

The thing about Calderon is that he was actually one of the few players on the team that had a consistent positive effect while he was on the court. Far more than Bargnani did and the numbers easily back me up on this. He's not your ideal PG because he's not great at getting to the basket, but I really don't understand the desperate need to replace him immediately. If the Raptors get someone like Kyrie Irving, then fine, but if they don't then there won't be any harm in having him start again next year. He's one of the few Raptors I can see starting on a contender.

Calderon was still horrible defensively, but he's tried much harder defensively. And PGs absolutely need to be able to get into the paint.

We would be far, far better suited to be taking a chance on Bayless than starting Calderon again. But if we have anything resembling a fair training camp, the starting spot is Bayless' to lose, so the point is moot.

[Tim W.]

Calderon was still horrible defensively, but he's tried much harder defensively. And PGs absolutely need to be able to get into the paint.

We would be far, far better suited to be taking a chance on Bayless than starting Calderon again. But if we have anything resembling a fair training camp, the starting spot is Bayless' to lose, so the point is moot.

Calderon wasn't horrible, but he wasn't good. He was at least passable And PGs don't NEED to, be able to get into the paint. It depends on the offense and his teammates. I think you're also vastly underestimating Calderons ability to make those around him better. He simply knows how to run an offense. Bay less has the physical tools, but is lightyears behind Calderon in the mental aspect of the game. Neither is the ideal choice, but if you're looking for who would make the team better, it's Calderon but a mile.

[Brandon]

Colangelo shouldn't have to justify trading Bargs or anyone else to somebody like Tanenbaum.

Well, who should Colangelo have to justify his actions to? Who does he report to? His record as gm of the Raptors is lousy to say the least. I'd personally like to hear his explanation for why Mitchell was fired instead of being given the authority to coax some effort out of Bargnani. If a Spurs rookie was not playing up to expectations and wasn't getting into the rotation as a result, do you suppose the Spurs would react by firing Popovich?

[Nick]

I don't know about this Bargnani saga. I was all over him towards the end of the season, just like everybody else. But maybe give him one more year at the power forward? What has really changed my mind about him is how well he's handling this criticism. Whats the worst that could happen? He's got one of the sweetest strokes in the game!

[Raptor4Ever]

I don't know about this Bargnani saga. I was all over him towards the end of the season, just like everybody else. But maybe give him one more year at the power forward? What has really changed my mind about him is how well he's handling this criticism. Whats the worst that could happen? He's got one of the sweetest strokes in the game!

What you are saying makes perfect sense but is not doable in this team ANYMORE. Players like Amir and DD has taken an stand by blaming all the defensive problems on AB. If we keep AB, it will be same thing all over again. Amir and DD or ... can simply do not give their 100% on the defensive end because they know at the end, AB can be used as the blame.

I think it is fair to AB to be traded where he can enjoy his time. I was looking at CB4 last night ( who was under alot of critisim last year here in Toronto). He had 25 and 12 and was enjoying himself.

I am looking at Marco and Jack right now, in play offs, scoring 10 and 8 point each in the first half and .... enjoying their time.

[Tim W.]

I think if the Clips end up with a top five pick, and sign-and-trade DeAndre Jordan, I would take their pick and Jordan for Andrea Bargnani. Likewise, I would take JaVale McGee and a top pick for AB, but those are my only real (and potentially legitimate) targets.

Marc Gasol is nothing. Tyson Chandler is old and injury-proned. Emeka Okafor is a goliath contract for Ed Davis-esque numbers, and Sam Dalembert is a joke.

They don't have a pick this year. They gave it to Cleveland in order to take on Baron Davis and his contract. I don't even know if there are any protections on it at all. Possibly #1, but I'm not even sure about that.

[j bean]

What you are saying makes perfect sense but is not doable in this team ANYMORE. Players like Amir and DD has taken an stand by blaming all the defensive problems on AB. If we keep AB, it will be same thing all over again. Amir and DD or ... can simply do not give their 100% on the defensive end because they know at the end, AB can be used as the blame.

I think it is fair to AB to be traded where he can enjoy his time. I was looking at CB4 last night ( who was under alot of critisim last year here in Toronto). He had 25 and 12 and was enjoying himself.

I am looking at Marco and Jack right now, in play offs, scoring 10 and 8 point each in the first half and .... enjoying their time.

You are right that Andrea should be moved so he can enjoy himself playing somewhere else. I don't agree that Amir and DeRozan never gave 100% effort defensively like Bargnani.

[WhatWhat]

Calderon wasn't horrible, but he wasn't good. He was at least passable And PGs don't NEED to, be able to get into the paint. It depends on the offense and his teammates. I think you're also vastly underestimating Calderons ability to make those around him better. He simply knows how to run an offense. Bay less has the physical tools, but is lightyears behind Calderon in the mental aspect of the game. Neither is the ideal choice, but if you're looking for who would make the team better, it's Calderon but a mile.

*Risks derailing thread* We'll agree to disagree?

I honestly don't think that Calderon has ever made his teammates better. Nash makes his teammates better, Rose makes his better, CP3 makes his teammates better. Calderon does a good job a facliating, not creating. Nash typically gets into the paint, attracts a crapload of attention, and dumps it off to an open big or open shooter.

With Calderon, he'll make the right pass, but he won't create for others. With a P&R with Amir, Amir will cut to the basket and get excellent position. Calderon will make the correct pass to him and Amir will very likely finish it, but Calderon didn't create
it.

Calderon isn't a dynamic player, nor will we have a roster suited for him. Starting him hasn't worked. Starting Bayless might. So we should give Bayless a chance if we don't get Irving, is what I'm still trying to say. Off the bench, I would not have a problem at all with Calderon, but starting the guy simply hasn't been working out.

[WhatWhat]

What you are saying makes perfect sense but is not doable in this team ANYMORE. Players like Amir and DD has taken an stand by blaming all the defensive problems on AB.

Stop it. They've said no such thing. At worst, they've suggested that they need a defensive C at the 5. Which is completely true.

Without Bargnani, we're still probably going to suck. But you know what would would be a nice step to actually improving the D? Moving the worst defender that gives the poorest effort on that end: Bargnani.

[Nick]

What you are saying makes perfect sense but is not doable in this team ANYMORE. Players like Amir and DD has taken an stand by blaming all the defensive problems on AB. If we keep AB, it will be same thing all over again. Amir and DD or ... can simply do not give their 100% on the defensive end because they know at the end, AB can be used as the blame.

I think it is fair to AB to be traded where he can enjoy his time. I was looking at CB4 last night ( who was under alot of critisim last year here in Toronto). He had 25 and 12 and was enjoying himself.

I am looking at Marco and Jack right now, in play offs, scoring 10 and 8 point each in the first half and .... enjoying their time.

You make a great point. It would probably be the best for all parties involved for AB to get traded. Even more, its nice to see these young guys get vocal and start to give the team some identity; they better back it up!