There's a reasonable chance that Bargnani starts next season in Toronto because I really don't think there will be a huge market for him this summer, not necessarily because Toronto genuinely wants to make it work one more time. The writing is on the wall that they want to move him, but I don't envision a long list of suitors nor do I expect their offers to be very good either. And as anxious as everyone is to chase Bargnani out of town, I don't think we should give him away for nothing or end up in a deal where we're just exchanging damaged goods with some other bad team.
If the Raptors haven't moved him, I'm sure he'll be starting at the 4 spot next year with the hypothetical "defensive center" we keep hearing so much about starting at the 5. They'll hope that he plays half decent and bumps his value or that the new situation clicks and they slow down on trying to move him at all. I'd be surprised if he finishes next season in Toronto though because it's pretty clear that ED is the guy going forward at the four spot.
Scoring isn't nearly as rare as some of you guys seem to think. There have been plenty of guys who have scored 20 ppg on bad teams, but were never able to figure out how to contribute to a good team. Given minutes, there are plenty of guys who can score. The reason many of them don't get enough minutes, though, is because they can't do all the other things.
No one is criticizing Bargnani's scoring, but can he do other things that will make him valuable to a contender? After five years, it appears not.
Why does that say to you I don't think Bargnani is good enough to play in the NBA? There's a big difference between someone who is skilled enough to play and even play well in the NBA, and someone who can fit on a contender. Corey Maggette is a perfect example. Would you say that Corey Maggette isn't good enough to play in the NBA?Loads of players have had decent careers playing on mediocre to bad teams who have been similar to Bargnani. That's the future I see for him.
Please don't put words in my mouth that I've never said.
It makes me plenty nervous that the Raptors don't have a superstar, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Bargnani. And it doesn't change the fact that the Raptors need to have the right ingredients to build a winning team.
And I don't think Bargnani would be the same player under Popovich or Thibideau. I don't think he would have played much, quite frankly, so he wouldn't have been given the time to develop, like he has. You can't make Bargnani into something he's not. I simply don't think he has the skills to be a good defender and rebounder. Physically, yes, but don't think he has the mental skills and in the end, that's the most important thing.
I'm fully on-board with the idea of playing Bargs off the bench. I think it's a best scenario for a number of reasons: 1) it creates more accountability on Bargs, where his minutes will be decided entirely on effort, performance, and matchups; 2) it allows DeRozan to become the primary offensive weapon on this team, while Bargnani will be a lightning rod that insulates DeRozan from harsh public scrutiny when he struggles; 3) it allows the Raptors to rebuild Bargnani's trade value, since they're showcasing him in a role that is more likely to suit how other teams would use him; 4) and lastly, there's a chance that he develops a role where he can be a useful player long-term for the organization.
That said, the big question mark in playing him off the bench is the same as with trading him: who plays starting C? I hate the idea of moving Davis or Johnson to C, and as discussed in the other thread, unless we somehow steal Gasol or take a massive risk in Oden, there are few young Cs available. If we draft Kanter or Valunciunas, we could see them ready to play starter's minutes by the middle or end of next season. If the team is losing, and Bargs is playing well off-the-bench, it becomes extremely difficult to justify keeping him there.
You said you can see him coming in (im guessing off the bench) playing 15mins as a situational role player, then the next line you say "Unfortunately I'm not even convinced he can do that because he's never done well when asked to come off the bench and he seems to need lots of touches to be effective, something he's not going to get as a situational role player.". So where does that leave him? Youre basically saying that even if he gets downgraded to playing 15mins, youre still not confident in his abilities to contribute enough in 15mins. so why give him 15mins, right? well, im assuming with this, youre implying to not let him play at all. so not playing at all means not playing in the NBA, hence my conclusion.
dont turn it around and make me answer the question. im just merely analyzing and formulating a conclusion from what you said.
I honestly can't believe Tim W. is so adament that Bargnani has to go. WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO SUPPORT HIM? hE'S NOT THE BEST, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE GOING RATE FOR BIGS IS/ARE, WE ARE NOT FARING that POORLY! sORRY, GOT EXCITED WITH THE CAPS!
This thread is about what we should do if we keep Bargs. Unfortunately if we need to keep Bargs, then the the only answer I have is tank again for another year. Hope we get another high lottery pick in 2012, and continue to develop Amir, Davis and Derozan.
To be realistic, defensive centers are gold in this league. The best way to get a defensive center is through the draft, and to develop them. Or to be a playoff contender, and get one in a trade (Perkins and OKC for example).
FA is not going to provide a good defensive center. Almost any other team, especially a playoff bound team, will snatch that player so quick. And unfortunately the ideal ones that you can snatch are the injury ridden ones like Oden.
Putting Bargs on the bench as a 6th man will not work. Bargs is a shooter. He needs touches. Being on the bench will deny him of those touches, and so he will be even less efficient than he is now. It's not about how much he gets paid. His salary is actually pretty modest. I think he makes what he deserves to be honest. But to be a good 6th man, requires you to be a spark plug. You need to provide instant energy. I'm not so sure if Bargs can do that to be honest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Smitch try him as a bench player? That didn't work out so well did it?
I keep hearing that you can't expect Bargnani to rebound and defend because that's not what he's there to do. This boggles my mind, quite frankly. Rebounding and defending should be a given, for a big man, not a bonus. If I eat a meal in a restaurant, the main thing I want is for it to taste good. Price, presentation, ambience and service are certainly important, but if it doesn't taste good, who cares about the other things.
High maintenance would be somebody like Lebron, IMO. He had the tools to win a championship in cleveland, but he goes out and one-ups himself by joining forces with Dwade and Bosh.
Bargnani staying? Solution is simple, and has been for the past 3-4 years: MAKE HIM ACCOUNTABLE. That's on Collangelo, Triano, and the few fans who keep babying him and making excuses about his lack of effort defensively. If they did that then one of two things would happen: a) he'd smarten up and actually give an honest effort. b) his minutes will go down drastically because he just doesn't get it. His trade value would plummet, and he'd be an overpaid end-of-the-bench player. But hey, we get to keep him.
I still would much rather have Davis beside Bogut hypothetically, but whatever...That proposed trade is probably what it would take for the Bucks to move a player like Bogut.
Even if we tried to hold the guy accountable like Tibs or Sloan would, I think Bargnani would break down, rather than break out.
If you just want him to stay, regardless of how it will (not) work out, just move Davis or Amir for this mythical real C.
Ed Davis to gain 25 pounds and D-up on opposing Centers ... and grab mad rebounds.
-very possible on both fronts I say.
The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.