Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Nick]

I'm sorry, but this is just another in a very long line of excuses. Bargnani has been given chance after chance and more opportunities than I think any player in the history of the league. How many times can you say "he just needs..." before you start realizing that it's not going to happen. Why is it that Bargnani needs such specific conditions in order to develop properly, but all these other players don't? And do you really want to keep a guy who needs such perfect conditions? I've said it over and over again, but it's not as if he's really even that good. You guys seem to be so desperate to figure out how to make basically a slightly above average player fit in. Why?

Who is the last superstar to stay in Toronto and help us make a deep drive into the playoffs?? I know what your saying, but the reason I think Bargs deserves more leway is because he has the potential to still be a monster, who COULD be an integral part of a deep playoff run, and who will stay in Toronto. I know you don't believe that, and its fine. I'm sure you think that going forward we need to invest in our young players Derozan and Davis. But do historic statistics not make you feel a little nervous, based on the fact that we haven't retained one superstar? Just some food for thought.....

[Fully]

There's a reasonable chance that Bargnani starts next season in Toronto because I really don't think there will be a huge market for him this summer, not necessarily because Toronto genuinely wants to make it work one more time. The writing is on the wall that they want to move him, but I don't envision a long list of suitors nor do I expect their offers to be very good either. And as anxious as everyone is to chase Bargnani out of town, I don't think we should give him away for nothing or end up in a deal where we're just exchanging damaged goods with some other bad team.

If the Raptors haven't moved him, I'm sure he'll be starting at the 4 spot next year with the hypothetical "defensive center" we keep hearing so much about starting at the 5. They'll hope that he plays half decent and bumps his value or that the new situation clicks and they slow down on trying to move him at all. I'd be surprised if he finishes next season in Toronto though because it's pretty clear that ED is the guy going forward at the four spot.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I'm sorry, but this is just another in a very long line of excuses. Bargnani has been given chance after chance and more opportunities than I think any player in the history of the league. How many times can you say "he just needs..." before you start realizing that it's not going to happen. Why is it that Bargnani needs such specific conditions in order to develop properly, but all these other players don't? And do you really want to keep a guy who needs such perfect conditions? I've said it over and over again, but it's not as if he's really even that good. You guys seem to be so desperate to figure out how to make basically a slightly above average player fit in. Why?

I think you need to understand that not all players are the same, you said it yourself before, different players develop in different ways. what we're trying to emphasize here is you putting him in a different scenario, more pressure, more responsibilities. in a perfect world, youd expect any player to embrace the role and develop as expected. but again, you need to understand, not all players are the same. is bargnani a special case? maybe. should he be fed with a silver spoon? technically no, but this is what im saying, if the raps DECIDE TO KEEP HIM, then they should do something drastic to change his defense and rebounding because theyre the ones choosing to keep him. If it was up to me, id trade him, easy way out, but im not part of raps management so all we can do is hope and cringe.

[Tim W.]

15 mpg for a guy who's 15th in the league in points?? Bargs has the potential to be a good defensive player, just needs to be taught to be more aggressive. This falls on Triano and Mitchell for not making this happen. You can't teach a person nuclear physics without a teacher, unless your a genius; this is a correlation to players who are naturally good defensive players.

I don't mean to be blunt, but how long have you been following the NBA? Loads of guys have been able to average 21 ppg in certain circumstances. All Harrington averaged 20 ppg two years ago, but because his only real skill is scoring he's averaged 22 mpg on a mediocre team like Denver. Corey Maggette averaged 22 ppg TWICE, yet can only manage to average 20 mpg on a lottery team like the Bucks. Ben Gordon averaged more than 20 ppg twice, but he barely averaged 26 mpg on one of the worst teams in the league. And for all those guys their big problem is that they bring little else other than scoring.

Scoring isn't nearly as rare as some of you guys seem to think. There have been plenty of guys who have scored 20 ppg on bad teams, but were never able to figure out how to contribute to a good team. Given minutes, there are plenty of guys who can score. The reason many of them don't get enough minutes, though, is because they can't do all the other things.

No one is criticizing Bargnani's scoring, but can he do other things that will make him valuable to a contender? After five years, it appears not.

[Nick]

I don't mean to be blunt, but how long have you been following the NBA? Loads of guys have been able to average 21 ppg in certain circumstances. All Harrington averaged 20 ppg two years ago, but because his only real skill is scoring he's averaged 22 mpg on a mediocre team like Denver. Corey Maggette averaged 22 ppg TWICE, yet can only manage to average 20 mpg on a lottery team like the Bucks. Ben Gordon averaged more than 20 ppg twice, but he barely averaged 26 mpg on one of the worst teams in the league. And for all those guys their big problem is that they bring little else other than scoring.

Scoring isn't nearly as rare as some of you guys seem to think. There have been plenty of guys who have scored 20 ppg on bad teams, but were never able to figure out how to contribute to a good team. Given minutes, there are plenty of guys who can score. The reason many of them don't get enough minutes, though, is because they can't do all the other things.

No one is criticizing Bargnani's scoring, but can he do other things that will make him valuable to a contender? After five years, it appears not.

I have been following the NBA for quite a while. Scoring isn't that rare... Really? I mean I can understand if your talking about the collegiate level, many players are able to excel due to the fact that size isn't as much as a factor, but I would say the NBA is a little different. If you can score in the NBA, I would say your a pretty hot commodity. Some times its the players fault, because alls they want to do is score. But isn't it up to the coach to get the players to buy into a system? Do you really think Bargs would be the same player under Pop or Thibs?

[Tim W.]

You know very well that people take everything literally in this forum (wink-wink) so i wouldnt beat around the bush and just say what it is exactly that you want said. and again, i asked on my thread what possible solutions, not how bad of a player you think bargnani is.

I think tunnel visioning when it comes to Bargnani is always unhealthy. no matter how bad defensively or rebounding wise you say he is, he still can be a very positive contributor to a team. i think we've gone over this before (matchups, scoring, etc) so id rather not elaborate again.

so youre basically saying he is not good enough to play in the NBA? no disrespect but given the raps made a "mistake" on drafting him, it has been reported that numerous GMs would jump on the chance to acquire his services. everyone is entitled to his opinion, but insinuating that a player like Barganani is not good enough to play in the NBA is either hateful or just plain ignorant, IMO.

When on earth did I ever say that Bargnani isn't good enough to play in the NBA? I'm sorry, but this drives me nuts. This is exactly what I said...

Loads of players have had decent careers playing on mediocre to bad teams who have been similar to Bargnani. That's the future I see for him.

Why does that say to you I don't think Bargnani is good enough to play in the NBA? There's a big difference between someone who is skilled enough to play and even play well in the NBA, and someone who can fit on a contender. Corey Maggette is a perfect example. Would you say that Corey Maggette isn't good enough to play in the NBA?

Please don't put words in my mouth that I've never said.

[Tim W.]

Who is the last superstar to stay in Toronto and help us make a deep drive into the playoffs?? I know what your saying, but the reason I think Bargs deserves more leway is because he has the potential to still be a monster, who COULD be an integral part of a deep playoff run, and who will stay in Toronto. I know you don't believe that, and its fine. I'm sure you think that going forward we need to invest in our young players Derozan and Davis. But do historic statistics not make you feel a little nervous, based on the fact that we haven't retained one superstar? Just some food for thought.....

Well, this is where you and I disagree. I don't see how Bargnani has the potential to be a monster who could be an integral part of a playoff team. Not in the least. He simply doesn't have the skills to do that.

It makes me plenty nervous that the Raptors don't have a superstar, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Bargnani. And it doesn't change the fact that the Raptors need to have the right ingredients to build a winning team.

[Tim W.]

I think you need to understand that not all players are the same, you said it yourself before, different players develop in different ways. what we're trying to emphasize here is you putting him in a different scenario, more pressure, more responsibilities. in a perfect world, youd expect any player to embrace the role and develop as expected. but again, you need to understand, not all players are the same. is bargnani a special case? maybe. should he be fed with a silver spoon? technically no, but this is what im saying, if the raps DECIDE TO KEEP HIM, then they should do something drastic to change his defense and rebounding because theyre the ones choosing to keep him. If it was up to me, id trade him, easy way out, but im not part of raps management so all we can do is hope and cringe.

I'm pretty sure I do know all players aren't the same. But my point is that Bargnani seems to be incredibly high maintenance for a guy who really only brings to the table one thing. I think the difference is that I never felt his upside was nearly as high as some of you guys did.

[Nick]

Well, this is where you and I disagree. I don't see how Bargnani has the potential to be a monster who could be an integral part of a playoff team. Not in the least. He simply doesn't have the skills to do that.

It makes me plenty nervous that the Raptors don't have a superstar, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Bargnani. And it doesn't change the fact that the Raptors need to have the right ingredients to build a winning team.

I think under the right circumstances Bargs could be a monster. But I do agree with allot you have to say. I think he has had more then enough time to flourish, whether its his fault or the coach's is ambiguous at this point. I for one wouldn't be mad if he was back, as I think this offseason he understands what his deficiences are. On the other hand, it is probably time to hand the reigns over to our young guys; there is just too much of a divide in the locker room. All's I can say is that we better damn well hope Derozan and Davis don't jump ship like every other talented player to go through the Raptors organization. If they do, it will be that much sweeter when we finally get that guy(s) who take us to the promise land. I remember arguing with you about Bargs before this season, and how I said this was going to be his year. Well you won that battle, but for the sake of my pride I hope he does develope somewhere down the road.

[Tim W.]

I have been following the NBA for quite a while. Scoring isn't that rare... Really? I mean I can understand if your talking about the collegiate level, many players are able to excel due to the fact that size isn't as much as a factor, but I would say the NBA is a little different. If you can score in the NBA, I would say your a pretty hot commodity. Some times its the players fault, because alls they want to do is score. But isn't it up to the coach to get the players to buy into a system? Do you really think Bargs would be the same player under Pop or Thibs?

Even in the NBA, scoring really isn't that valuable unless it's in concert with other skills. Monta Ellis has averaged 25 ppg over the last two years, but no one ever includes him among the elite players and I highly doubt many contenders would want to give much up for him. Why? Because, outside of scoring, he really doesn't do much else. Michael Beasley can certainly score, but does he do anything else well?

And I don't think Bargnani would be the same player under Popovich or Thibideau. I don't think he would have played much, quite frankly, so he wouldn't have been given the time to develop, like he has. You can't make Bargnani into something he's not. I simply don't think he has the skills to be a good defender and rebounder. Physically, yes, but don't think he has the mental skills and in the end, that's the most important thing.

[raptorsking]

Or trading Amir for...something, but his trade value is probably low (and the whole being far more efficient than Bargnani thing).

Davis + unprotected 1st/draft rights + Bayless for Bogut and Gooden/Mags

eww

[octothorp]

I'm fully on-board with the idea of playing Bargs off the bench. I think it's a best scenario for a number of reasons: 1) it creates more accountability on Bargs, where his minutes will be decided entirely on effort, performance, and matchups; 2) it allows DeRozan to become the primary offensive weapon on this team, while Bargnani will be a lightning rod that insulates DeRozan from harsh public scrutiny when he struggles; 3) it allows the Raptors to rebuild Bargnani's trade value, since they're showcasing him in a role that is more likely to suit how other teams would use him; 4) and lastly, there's a chance that he develops a role where he can be a useful player long-term for the organization.

That said, the big question mark in playing him off the bench is the same as with trading him: who plays starting C? I hate the idea of moving Davis or Johnson to C, and as discussed in the other thread, unless we somehow steal Gasol or take a massive risk in Oden, there are few young Cs available. If we draft Kanter or Valunciunas, we could see them ready to play starter's minutes by the middle or end of next season. If the team is losing, and Bargs is playing well off-the-bench, it becomes extremely difficult to justify keeping him there.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

When on earth did I ever say that Bargnani isn't good enough to play in the NBA? I'm sorry, but this drives me nuts. This is exactly what I said...

Why does that say to you I don't think Bargnani is good enough to play in the NBA? There's a big difference between someone who is skilled enough to play and even play well in the NBA, and someone who can fit on a contender. Corey Maggette is a perfect example. Would you say that Corey Maggette isn't good enough to play in the NBA?

Please don't put words in my mouth that I've never said.

Well, you said a couple of posts before that you were trying to say something in a lighthearted way and i didnt get it but Nick did, well this time, i got it and pointed it out and you vehemently deny it.

You said you can see him coming in (im guessing off the bench) playing 15mins as a situational role player, then the next line you say "Unfortunately I'm not even convinced he can do that because he's never done well when asked to come off the bench and he seems to need lots of touches to be effective, something he's not going to get as a situational role player.". So where does that leave him? Youre basically saying that even if he gets downgraded to playing 15mins, youre still not confident in his abilities to contribute enough in 15mins. so why give him 15mins, right? well, im assuming with this, youre implying to not let him play at all. so not playing at all means not playing in the NBA, hence my conclusion.

dont turn it around and make me answer the question. im just merely analyzing and formulating a conclusion from what you said.

[Halifax Raps Fan]

I honestly can't believe Tim W. is so adament that Bargnani has to go. WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO SUPPORT HIM? hE'S NOT THE BEST, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE GOING RATE FOR BIGS IS/ARE, WE ARE NOT FARING that POORLY! sORRY, GOT EXCITED WITH THE CAPS!

[planetmars]

This thread is about what we should do if we keep Bargs. Unfortunately if we need to keep Bargs, then the the only answer I have is tank again for another year. Hope we get another high lottery pick in 2012, and continue to develop Amir, Davis and Derozan.

To be realistic, defensive centers are gold in this league. The best way to get a defensive center is through the draft, and to develop them. Or to be a playoff contender, and get one in a trade (Perkins and OKC for example).

FA is not going to provide a good defensive center. Almost any other team, especially a playoff bound team, will snatch that player so quick. And unfortunately the ideal ones that you can snatch are the injury ridden ones like Oden.

Putting Bargs on the bench as a 6th man will not work. Bargs is a shooter. He needs touches. Being on the bench will deny him of those touches, and so he will be even less efficient than he is now. It's not about how much he gets paid. His salary is actually pretty modest. I think he makes what he deserves to be honest. But to be a good 6th man, requires you to be a spark plug. You need to provide instant energy. I'm not so sure if Bargs can do that to be honest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Smitch try him as a bench player? That didn't work out so well did it?

[Tim W.]

Well, why cant Bargnani be an exception as well? Is there a written rule that is being followed as to why he cant play a position others dont brand him to be in? Magic is not an exception, he is among a few.

Then why do you keep saying he's a center? Now youre saying PF and C are the same. Why didnt you say he's a PF and C in the first place? Im not comparing a PF and PG, or C and PG, im merely using Magic as an example that not all players need to be categorized in a specific position based on their body structure.

I think that was one of the main reasons why this season was a wash, and Triano said it himself, he had to change lineups and rotations on a nightly basis. And that doesnt go well for a team, coz there's no stability. Same with Bargnani, he probably got confused at some point, what should i really do here? guard PFs? guard Cs?

Well, you dont know that. you cant really tell how his gameplay will change if you dedicate him to the PF spot, hence the phrase practice makes perfect. Maybe he's not versatile enough to play both positions, why expose him to that situation? if he says he's a PF, then make him a PF. if youve dedicated your resources into making him a PF and he's still crap, then get rid of him. But its unfair to assume that he dilly-dallied from two positions that he's the worst in both without even having him planted on one specific position.

we share the same sentiments here. but you cant keep getting guys for one thing (scoring) and try to expect them to be above average in another thing when clearly, the guy is not. if the team needs scoring and defense and you want to get both in one player, then get that player.

He's a big man who is an extremely poor defender and rebounder. In the end, that's really all that matter. It trumps whatever he does on the offensive, no matter what position he plays. Magic would still have been a Hall of Fame player if he had spent his career at PF, where he actually did play his first season (Norm Nixon was the Laker's PG).

I keep hearing that you can't expect Bargnani to rebound and defend because that's not what he's there to do. This boggles my mind, quite frankly. Rebounding and defending should be a given, for a big man, not a bonus. If I eat a meal in a restaurant, the main thing I want is for it to taste good. Price, presentation, ambience and service are certainly important, but if it doesn't taste good, who cares about the other things.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I'm pretty sure I do know all players aren't the same. But my point is that Bargnani seems to be incredibly high maintenance for a guy who really only brings to the table one thing. I think the difference is that I never felt his upside was nearly as high as some of you guys did.

I dont think high maintenance is the correct phrase. High maintenance is you already have what it takes, but youre just milking the situation to get more out of it. Like a hot girl, she's already hot and attracting attention, but she still needs expensive stuff and thick make-up to feel good. Sorry for the analogy but thats the easiest way to describe it. Bargnani is not high maintenance, he simply, currently does not have the skills to be a good defender or rebounder. Simply put, Bargnani is not a hot girl. He is an unattractive girl who needs makeup and expensive stuff to look good. So inorder for him to become a good rebounder/defender, you have to teach, instill, drive it into his brain.

High maintenance would be somebody like Lebron, IMO. He had the tools to win a championship in cleveland, but he goes out and one-ups himself by joining forces with Dwade and Bosh.

[jlongs]

Bargnani staying? Solution is simple, and has been for the past 3-4 years: MAKE HIM ACCOUNTABLE. That's on Collangelo, Triano, and the few fans who keep babying him and making excuses about his lack of effort defensively. If they did that then one of two things would happen: a) he'd smarten up and actually give an honest effort. b) his minutes will go down drastically because he just doesn't get it. His trade value would plummet, and he'd be an overpaid end-of-the-bench player. But hey, we get to keep him.

[WhatWhat]

eww

Hey, I never said that it would be pretty.

I still would much rather have Davis beside Bogut hypothetically, but whatever...That proposed trade is probably what it would take for the Bucks to move a player like Bogut.

Even if we tried to hold the guy accountable like Tibs or Sloan would, I think Bargnani would break down, rather than break out.

If you just want him to stay, regardless of how it will (not) work out, just move Davis or Amir for this mythical real C.

[Papa Burgundy]

Ed Davis to gain 25 pounds and D-up on opposing Centers ... and grab mad rebounds.

-very possible on both fronts I say.